I noticed at level 10 the elemental forms of a moon druid are immune to exhaustion. Barbarians frenzy gives you one level of exhaustion. Seems like a sweet combo for multiclassing.
My question is: when in elemental form can you make the bonus attack that frenzy gives you? Frenzy states that "for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns"
The elementals make "slam attacks" and the fire elemental makes a "touch attack."
Does the slam attack or touch attack qualify as a melee weapon attack for getting the bonus attack from frenzy?
I would rule Yes to the bonus attack.. but you would have to talk to your DM out exhaustion carrying over to when Rage ends and you switch back to human form. Just because the elemental is immune to the effects of exhaustion, doesn't mean the status would not carry over.
As a DM, I would probably have the Druid player do a CON check after turning back to non-Elemental form to see if Exhaustion sets in IF rage began while in Elemental form. If the rage began before turning to an Elemental, i would definitely impose Exhaustion after turning back.
As far as being able to use Frenzy to make a slam/touch attack as an elemental the RAW answer is a clear yes. From the fire elemental stat block: "Touch. Melee Weapon Attack: . . ."
In 5e there are 4 basic categories of attacks: Melee Weapon Attack, Ranged Weapon Attack, Melee Spell Attack, and Ranged Spell Attack. In this context 'Weapon' really means 'not spell' and includes attacks that are not actually made with weapons like unarmed strikes and natural weapons.
As far as being able to use Frenzy to make a slam/touch attack as an elemental the RAW answer is a clear yes. From the fire elemental stat block: "Touch. Melee Weapon Attack: . . ."
In 5e there are 4 basic categories of attacks: Melee Weapon Attack, Ranged Weapon Attack, Melee Spell Attack, and Ranged Spell Attack. In this context 'Weapon' really means 'not spell' and includes attacks that are not actually made with weapons like unarmed strikes and natural weapons.
If you are immune to exhaustion when the effect would set in then you are immune to it. It does not linger for your original form to suffer.
That being said this isn't all that practical. Barbarian-Moon Druid is one of the most overhyped, trap of multi-class in 5e. You can't wildshape and rage in the same turn or you will immediately drop rage for not dealing or taking damage. So you have to wildshape turn one, rage turn two, and then on turn three you can get a BA attack. Most fights are wrapping up by then. Instead you could have more levels of druid and be free to concentrate on a badass spell while going to town as an elemental.
So this brings up an interesting discussion to me: Druids by default have the wildshape action at level 2, BUT moon druids gain an ability of now bonus action transform. It doesnt say that they lose the action of wildshape use just gain the BA version too. So can they still just choose which one to use action or BA?
The next thing is with Barbs they can actually go one full turn not dealing or taking dmg and still maintain their rage
"Your rage lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven’t attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then. You can also end your rage on your turn as a bonus action. "
This seems to indicate that you actually can choose to not have to attack every turn as long as you've atk or taken dmg since your previous turn (not the current turn just ending).
So this brings up an interesting discussion to me: Druids by default have the wildshape action at level 2, BUT moon druids gain an ability of now bonus action transform. It doesnt say that they lose the action of wildshape use just gain the BA version too. So can they still just choose which one to use action or BA?
The next thing is with Barbs they can actually go one full turn not dealing or taking dmg and still maintain their rage
"Your rage lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven’t attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then. You can also end your rage on your turn as a bonus action. "
This seems to indicate that you actually can choose to not have to attack every turn as long as you've atk or taken dmg since your previous turn (not the current turn just ending).
Yes, gaining the ability to Wildshape as a Bonus Action does not remove the ability to Wildshape as an Action. Another good example is Rogue's Cunning Action. It lets them Dash as a Bonus Action and they can also still Dash as an Action.
Rage ending early is a bit trickier and depends on the answer to this question: Does the phrase " . . . since your last turn . . ." include or exclude your last turn? Typically this usage of "since" is understood to be exclusive. Even under this stricter ruling if you got an Opportunity Attack that would qualify and let you keep your Rage even if you didn't attack this turn. Regardless, if combat starts and no one has attacked yet I wouldn't recommend Wildshaping and Raging because then Rage immediately ends for sure.
So this brings up an interesting discussion to me: Druids by default have the wildshape action at level 2, BUT moon druids gain an ability of now bonus action transform. It doesnt say that they lose the action of wildshape use just gain the BA version too. So can they still just choose which one to use action or BA?
The next thing is with Barbs they can actually go one full turn not dealing or taking dmg and still maintain their rage
"Your rage lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven’t attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then. You can also end your rage on your turn as a bonus action. "
This seems to indicate that you actually can choose to not have to attack every turn as long as you've atk or taken dmg since your previous turn (not the current turn just ending).
Yes, gaining the ability to Wildshape as a Bonus Action does not remove the ability to Wildshape as an Action. Another good example is Rogue's Cunning Action. It lets them Dash as a Bonus Action and they can also still Dash as an Action.
Rage ending early is a bit trickier and depends on the answer to this question: Does the phrase " . . . since your last turn . . ." include or exclude your last turn? Typically this usage of "since" is understood to be exclusive. Even under this stricter ruling if you got an Opportunity Attack that would qualify and let you keep your Rage even if you didn't attack this turn. Regardless, if combat starts and no one has attacked yet I wouldn't recommend Wildshaping and Raging because then Rage immediately ends for sure.
Oh thats wicked interesting outlook! I wonder if initiative hasnt been rolled would it count like anything before it happened as a turn or not. If so then you are 100% right on that early ending rage. If not then you can do that. Ooh I now need to look into this.
*Update* From what I've found it appears that turns do not actually start counting as a turn until Initiative has been rolled. So it seems you can do the wildshape/Rage combo first turn and still be raging for the next turn since there was "no previous" turn.
Initiative, rounds, and turns aren't anything special. They are just game mechanics to help resolve events when the exact order becomes important. A round represents 6 second of time and a creature's turn is what they do for those 6 seconds.
Theoretically as soon as anyone expresses intent to do anything hostile initiative should be rolled and surprise should be determined. But there are times when the start of combat is more muddled than this. In these situations you can ask the question "Have I attacked or taken any damage in the last 6 seconds?". If the answer is no then you are out of luck. If the answer is yes then maybe you could Rage and Wildshape without loosing Rage.
Eh... I can see your viewpoint on it 100%, but mechanically (or RAW) you could do it. Would it make sense? Not always, and sometimes its just to make the Barby a bit better mechanically (for something like this situation). Thank you for the input and getting me thinking critically on it.
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I noticed at level 10 the elemental forms of a moon druid are immune to exhaustion. Barbarians frenzy gives you one level of exhaustion. Seems like a sweet combo for multiclassing.
My question is: when in elemental form can you make the bonus attack that frenzy gives you? Frenzy states that "for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns"
The elementals make "slam attacks" and the fire elemental makes a "touch attack."
Does the slam attack or touch attack qualify as a melee weapon attack for getting the bonus attack from frenzy?
Thanks.
I would rule Yes to the bonus attack.. but you would have to talk to your DM out exhaustion carrying over to when Rage ends and you switch back to human form. Just because the elemental is immune to the effects of exhaustion, doesn't mean the status would not carry over.
As a DM, I would probably have the Druid player do a CON check after turning back to non-Elemental form to see if Exhaustion sets in IF rage began while in Elemental form. If the rage began before turning to an Elemental, i would definitely impose Exhaustion after turning back.
As far as being able to use Frenzy to make a slam/touch attack as an elemental the RAW answer is a clear yes. From the fire elemental stat block: "Touch. Melee Weapon Attack: . . ."
In 5e there are 4 basic categories of attacks: Melee Weapon Attack, Ranged Weapon Attack, Melee Spell Attack, and Ranged Spell Attack. In this context 'Weapon' really means 'not spell' and includes attacks that are not actually made with weapons like unarmed strikes and natural weapons.
Awesome. Thanks!
If you are immune to exhaustion when the effect would set in then you are immune to it. It does not linger for your original form to suffer.
That being said this isn't all that practical. Barbarian-Moon Druid is one of the most overhyped, trap of multi-class in 5e. You can't wildshape and rage in the same turn or you will immediately drop rage for not dealing or taking damage. So you have to wildshape turn one, rage turn two, and then on turn three you can get a BA attack. Most fights are wrapping up by then. Instead you could have more levels of druid and be free to concentrate on a badass spell while going to town as an elemental.
So this brings up an interesting discussion to me: Druids by default have the wildshape action at level 2, BUT moon druids gain an ability of now bonus action transform. It doesnt say that they lose the action of wildshape use just gain the BA version too. So can they still just choose which one to use action or BA?
The next thing is with Barbs they can actually go one full turn not dealing or taking dmg and still maintain their rage
"Your rage lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven’t attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then. You can also end your rage on your turn as a bonus action. "
This seems to indicate that you actually can choose to not have to attack every turn as long as you've atk or taken dmg since your previous turn (not the current turn just ending).
Yes, gaining the ability to Wildshape as a Bonus Action does not remove the ability to Wildshape as an Action. Another good example is Rogue's Cunning Action. It lets them Dash as a Bonus Action and they can also still Dash as an Action.
Rage ending early is a bit trickier and depends on the answer to this question: Does the phrase " . . . since your last turn . . ." include or exclude your last turn? Typically this usage of "since" is understood to be exclusive. Even under this stricter ruling if you got an Opportunity Attack that would qualify and let you keep your Rage even if you didn't attack this turn. Regardless, if combat starts and no one has attacked yet I wouldn't recommend Wildshaping and Raging because then Rage immediately ends for sure.
Oh thats wicked interesting outlook! I wonder if initiative hasnt been rolled would it count like anything before it happened as a turn or not. If so then you are 100% right on that early ending rage. If not then you can do that. Ooh I now need to look into this.
*Update* From what I've found it appears that turns do not actually start counting as a turn until Initiative has been rolled. So it seems you can do the wildshape/Rage combo first turn and still be raging for the next turn since there was "no previous" turn.
Initiative, rounds, and turns aren't anything special. They are just game mechanics to help resolve events when the exact order becomes important. A round represents 6 second of time and a creature's turn is what they do for those 6 seconds.
Theoretically as soon as anyone expresses intent to do anything hostile initiative should be rolled and surprise should be determined. But there are times when the start of combat is more muddled than this. In these situations you can ask the question "Have I attacked or taken any damage in the last 6 seconds?". If the answer is no then you are out of luck. If the answer is yes then maybe you could Rage and Wildshape without loosing Rage.
Eh... I can see your viewpoint on it 100%, but mechanically (or RAW) you could do it. Would it make sense? Not always, and sometimes its just to make the Barby a bit better mechanically (for something like this situation). Thank you for the input and getting me thinking critically on it.