So will be starting a Theros campaign once we finish our current one and I'm debating playing a front liner moon druid. (most likely warforged) I know 5e doesn't necessitate roles but from previous campaigns, lacking a meat shield really, really hurt the group but so far another player mentioned they want to be a barbarian and another is considering a front lining hexblade warlock so now we have an overabundance of front liners but this is more something for me to figure out with team composition...
I'll admit that I'm used to druids in games similar to WoW where the shapeshift is at will and the beast's abilities scale and the fact that Moon Druids use their wild shape for both combat and utility makes me nervous. I can never turn into a cat or bat to sneak and scout into the cave, especially after reaching level 10 and using both charges in one shot per short rest. Teaming
I'm also really concerned about how beasts scales. When team mates get world changing spells and insane weapons, I'm still biting as a dire wolf. At best, the elementals once and if we hit that (and not even sure how much longer the campaign will go after that.
I know level 2-5 moon druids are REALLY good where bears have multi attack 3 levels before everyone else but how's the curve after that? Does it keep up? Will it be boring? Will I have to accept not shifting for every battle and just revert to full casting (i dont mind every so often but I want to primarily be shifting).
I thought of homebrew solutions (to perceived problems since I've never actually played one) such as an item that allows tiny creature shifting at will or on its own charge to allow scouting without eating combat shifting charges. Or just like weapons/armor gets +1-3, maybe an item that allows shifting at +x CR to expand to stronger beasts or even an item that would allow me to shift to monstrosities that scale better... Even something as simple as going tortle and letting the 17 AC transfer to forms since they all pretty much have an AC under 14 (Yea i know, druids rely on the HP sponge of multiple health pools than actual AC) but my DM is more hesitant to allow tortles because they dont fit in Theros more so than the AC allowance.
I also dont want to insist on homebrew things (that are potentially broken) for an official class based on my own concerns. At that point I should just play something else, even though I really want to play a driud at one point.
Things that reset on short rest come up quite often, I played a battlemaster fighter for quite a while and almost never found myself without superiority dice. Some parts of campaigns (like travel)also have only 1 or 2 fights per long rest, which makes it even better for you (or anyone really).
Being able to transform into elementals is really powerful when you get it and sounds like a lot of fun (have Moon druid in my party, haven't gotten to that point yet).
Also once you reach lvl 7, you can prepare polymorph, giving you more "wildshaping" with a whole new range of forms, because polymorph has very different limitations than wildshape
It is a bit weaker right before you get the elements and once you pass lvl 18 but you still have a whole array of spells to compensate and which you should use, only wildshaping and never casting is gimping yourself a bit and being less useful to the party.
If there are parts where you run out of wildshape charges, that could be intendend. Your DM trying to force the party to burn resources going for a bit of a survival feeling where you have to last a relatively large amount of situations with a day's resources. And even then, most of the time you'll be able to squeeze a short rest in there somewhere.
Lvl 20 could also give you true polymoprh for even whackier forms if you ever get to it. You also have infinite wild shapes at that point, that never gets old.
From what I've seen Moon druids have enough resources to last the day, except when your DM is starving you for a specific reason. Power lvl is more than okay, it is considered the strongest subclass for druids and should not be in need of buffs.
Strictly speaking, warforged aren't an option for Theros. (The DM is always free to expand options, but that isn't clear.) But everyone does get a Supernatural Gift, and one of those can be Anvilwrought. It's a backdoor to playing a mechanical character, one artificially made, using other races.
The thing is you'd basically just playing an Anvilwrought human. Why not be something a bit more exotic?
Strictly speaking, warforged aren't an option for Theros. (The DM is always free to expand options, but that isn't clear.) But everyone does get a Supernatural Gift, and one of those can be Anvilwrought. It's a backdoor to playing a mechanical character, one artificially made, using other races.
The thing is you'd basically just playing an Anvilwrought human. Why not be something a bit more exotic?
So he gave us a list of acceptable races. I actually wanted to be a Yuan-Ti swashbuckler who escaped her rigid snake obsessed society for freedom. She wouldve worshipped the wild, chaotic sea through Thassa. He said no to the Yuan-Ti. Debating another race but I sorta fell onto the concept and backstory too much to change her but druids were always a top choice of mine and honestly Im more hesitant to be moon druid for the redundancy of a meat shield front liner.
Warforged have been given since they can just be an automaton built by Porphorus. He suggested that I be his worshipper but instead I suggested instead just being commissioned by Porphorus for either Nylea or possibly even Pharika (focusing on her antidote/healing aspect). The warforged would be a timid yet fierce sentinel of the forest and of the wildlife, always putting the care of the wild before anything else - the reason why he has no reserves about being a meat shield... anything to redirect from those he protects and watches over.
If Im being honest, I know I can expect to not ALWAYS be in wild shape but for when I do, I'm liking the +1 to AC that worforged gives even in wild shape (same reason why I was considering tortle if the 17 AC transfered)
Another way of boosting your capabilities in wildshape would be multiclassing, I tried a Barbarian(1) Moon Druid(X) once and that made a whole lot of sense. You'll get all the bonuses of rage and most animals you'll regularly shape into have decent DEX and CON so they get a bit more AC via unarmored defense. I even played a Paladin(2) druid(X), but that is pretty MAD - but Bear-Smites ar a lot of fun...
I think the redundancy of having a secondary meatshield shouldn't be a problem. Especially not if the barb goes down and you pack some healing, too. I wouldn't worry about the Hexblade, those dudes are squishy and happy for each and every one next to them.
Lastly, never unerestimate the capabilities you got as a druid out of wildshape. You're a great healer and can doa lot of damage!
Thanks guys. Would Monk be a better fit than barbarian? What are the pros and cons to each? I would control my Wis score as opposed to relying on wild shapes Dex & Con so its a minimum of +5 ac.
I know most beasts use Str (though since the stat block doesn't specific, I'd need to really look into which don't) so they'll benefit from Raging, but what about unarmed strikes?
and just basic wild shape question, proficiencies transfer but does your prof bonus number transfer? Looking on the dnd beyond sheet, I see that my saving throw and skill check bonuses increase on a wild shape form (like with my 10 Int, my dire wolf's INT save went from +2 to +6 at level 20), but then why doesn't my proficiency bonus increase apply to attacks hit + or saving DCs (like the dire wolf prone effect?) If those are also effected by MY proficiency bonus, why does it not apply to that?
Should it but the sheet just doesn't translate it? The Druid page isn't clear (I wish stat blocks just said the prof bonus of each monster it would make 'scaling' them when I DM easier too)
I also have a question about the stats: How important are Str, Dex. Con and Wis to Moon druid?
Im considering those stats. Con prof aside, are there any pros to being a monk instead?
The only stat to really bump during ASIs are wis and even that is less reliant than other subclasses
Yea so that doesn't answer. A level 20 druid will have a proficiency bonus of 6 while a dire wolf has a prof of 2+3 from their STR giving their bite a +5... Shouldn't a level 20 replace the wolf's prof bonus with his own now giving the bite a +9?
Besides for + weapons that regular characters will get, their stat & prof bonuses keep increasing where the druid's attack remain the same. Shouldn't the prof be used?
Multiclassing with barbarian means you need 13+ Strength, which most druids drop. But most want to get at least 14 Dexterity, so multiclassing is easier. And since you're a full-caster, you'll also be stacking Wisdom anyway. Remember, you retain all your mental statistics when using [Combat] Wild Shape, so AC will continue to go up as you increase your spellcasting stat.
Honestly, though, the multiclassing isn't that big a deal. Let's look at two examples, the brown bear and dire wolf. Assuming a +3 Wisdom modifier, your dip doesn't really matter. Either way, the AC is going to be 13 for the bear and 15 for the wolf. Both are a pittance, and you're electing to multiclass when, at the same level if you didn't, you could blow a 2nd-level spell slot for [Tooltip Not Found] and have an AC of 16. Even at super high levels, when you can become a mammoth, you're only looking at a net bonus to AC of +2.
Wisdom, over the long haul, is better if you're looking to get the most out of AC. Especially with the elemental forms, which you can take at higher levels. And if you elect barbarian, then you're waiting for two turns to begin raging. It'll help a little with absorbing and dealing damage, but think about how much productivity you lose in the meantime.
Unless you have a very specific level/play style in mind, I tend to think that multiclassing out of Circle of the Moon Druid is detrimental. You end up trading some feature from another class for the improvements to your wildshape. This tends to make the levels where Wildshape is already mediocre for the Druid into flat out bad levels. Unless the feature you’re trading for is amazing, you’re probably going from bad to worse.
Taking 2 levels of paladin means delaying your wild shapes by practically a CR, your Druid spell casting by an entire spell level, and your spell slot progression by a level.
Losing those additional features from the Druid have to be accounted for when determining how much of a net gain a particular muticlass would be. There is quite a significant damage loss in missing out on a CR, not only from damage but also from loss of to hit bonuses. Higher CR creatures do also tend to have (maybe only slightly) higher ACs as well, so missing out on a CR bump to take levels in order to get an AC bump also has to be weighed.
Note that you do not re-compute the to hit bonuses in stat blocks, you use them as they are (they are neither saving throws or skill proficiencies, and the caster is not proficient in them outside of wildshape. Also, as with most entries in a stat block, they are not necessarily always built obviously).
From my personal experience, moon druid is a really good damage sponge, and has some great out of combat utility spells. I didn't really spec mine for damage, and wildshape by itself falls off on that front. With a more offensive spell selection I could probably catch up a bit, but the party role I have been trying to fill is more tank/support. Your friends are getting huge spells? Druids are full casters, so are you. You just have less incentive to be a blaster.
That said, I say embrace that your damage will fall off relative to the [insert damagey build] and go for the forms that let you create non damage problems. "That's a nice assassin npc you got there, it would be a shame if they got grappled and kept out of reach from anyone but the damage sponge" type thing.
The 2 charge cost of elemental shaping is real but, they are SO much better than the beasts you have access to at 10 that it's totally worth it.
[Edited to finish a sentence because I fat fingered post before I was done. Yay phones]
Hey,
So will be starting a Theros campaign once we finish our current one and I'm debating playing a front liner moon druid. (most likely warforged) I know 5e doesn't necessitate roles but from previous campaigns, lacking a meat shield really, really hurt the group but so far another player mentioned they want to be a barbarian and another is considering a front lining hexblade warlock so now we have an overabundance of front liners but this is more something for me to figure out with team composition...
I'll admit that I'm used to druids in games similar to WoW where the shapeshift is at will and the beast's abilities scale and the fact that Moon Druids use their wild shape for both combat and utility makes me nervous. I can never turn into a cat or bat to sneak and scout into the cave, especially after reaching level 10 and using both charges in one shot per short rest. Teaming
I'm also really concerned about how beasts scales. When team mates get world changing spells and insane weapons, I'm still biting as a dire wolf. At best, the elementals once and if we hit that (and not even sure how much longer the campaign will go after that.
I know level 2-5 moon druids are REALLY good where bears have multi attack 3 levels before everyone else but how's the curve after that? Does it keep up? Will it be boring? Will I have to accept not shifting for every battle and just revert to full casting (i dont mind every so often but I want to primarily be shifting).
I thought of homebrew solutions (to perceived problems since I've never actually played one) such as an item that allows tiny creature shifting at will or on its own charge to allow scouting without eating combat shifting charges. Or just like weapons/armor gets +1-3, maybe an item that allows shifting at +x CR to expand to stronger beasts or even an item that would allow me to shift to monstrosities that scale better... Even something as simple as going tortle and letting the 17 AC transfer to forms since they all pretty much have an AC under 14 (Yea i know, druids rely on the HP sponge of multiple health pools than actual AC) but my DM is more hesitant to allow tortles because they dont fit in Theros more so than the AC allowance.
I also dont want to insist on homebrew things (that are potentially broken) for an official class based on my own concerns. At that point I should just play something else, even though I really want to play a driud at one point.
Things that reset on short rest come up quite often, I played a battlemaster fighter for quite a while and almost never found myself without superiority dice. Some parts of campaigns (like travel)also have only 1 or 2 fights per long rest, which makes it even better for you (or anyone really).
Being able to transform into elementals is really powerful when you get it and sounds like a lot of fun (have Moon druid in my party, haven't gotten to that point yet).
Also once you reach lvl 7, you can prepare polymorph, giving you more "wildshaping" with a whole new range of forms, because polymorph has very different limitations than wildshape
It is a bit weaker right before you get the elements and once you pass lvl 18 but you still have a whole array of spells to compensate and which you should use, only wildshaping and never casting is gimping yourself a bit and being less useful to the party.
If there are parts where you run out of wildshape charges, that could be intendend. Your DM trying to force the party to burn resources going for a bit of a survival feeling where you have to last a relatively large amount of situations with a day's resources. And even then, most of the time you'll be able to squeeze a short rest in there somewhere.
Lvl 20 could also give you true polymoprh for even whackier forms if you ever get to it. You also have infinite wild shapes at that point, that never gets old.
From what I've seen Moon druids have enough resources to last the day, except when your DM is starving you for a specific reason. Power lvl is more than okay, it is considered the strongest subclass for druids and should not be in need of buffs.
Strictly speaking, warforged aren't an option for Theros. (The DM is always free to expand options, but that isn't clear.) But everyone does get a Supernatural Gift, and one of those can be Anvilwrought. It's a backdoor to playing a mechanical character, one artificially made, using other races.
The thing is you'd basically just playing an Anvilwrought human. Why not be something a bit more exotic?
So he gave us a list of acceptable races. I actually wanted to be a Yuan-Ti swashbuckler who escaped her rigid snake obsessed society for freedom. She wouldve worshipped the wild, chaotic sea through Thassa. He said no to the Yuan-Ti. Debating another race but I sorta fell onto the concept and backstory too much to change her but druids were always a top choice of mine and honestly Im more hesitant to be moon druid for the redundancy of a meat shield front liner.
Warforged have been given since they can just be an automaton built by Porphorus. He suggested that I be his worshipper but instead I suggested instead just being commissioned by Porphorus for either Nylea or possibly even Pharika (focusing on her antidote/healing aspect). The warforged would be a timid yet fierce sentinel of the forest and of the wildlife, always putting the care of the wild before anything else - the reason why he has no reserves about being a meat shield... anything to redirect from those he protects and watches over.
If Im being honest, I know I can expect to not ALWAYS be in wild shape but for when I do, I'm liking the +1 to AC that worforged gives even in wild shape (same reason why I was considering tortle if the 17 AC transfered)
Another way of boosting your capabilities in wildshape would be multiclassing, I tried a Barbarian(1) Moon Druid(X) once and that made a whole lot of sense. You'll get all the bonuses of rage and most animals you'll regularly shape into have decent DEX and CON so they get a bit more AC via unarmored defense. I even played a Paladin(2) druid(X), but that is pretty MAD - but Bear-Smites ar a lot of fun...
I think the redundancy of having a secondary meatshield shouldn't be a problem. Especially not if the barb goes down and you pack some healing, too. I wouldn't worry about the Hexblade, those dudes are squishy and happy for each and every one next to them.
Lastly, never unerestimate the capabilities you got as a druid out of wildshape. You're a great healer and can doa lot of damage!
Thanks guys. Would Monk be a better fit than barbarian? What are the pros and cons to each? I would control my Wis score as opposed to relying on wild shapes Dex & Con so its a minimum of +5 ac.
I know most beasts use Str (though since the stat block doesn't specific, I'd need to really look into which don't) so they'll benefit from Raging, but what about unarmed strikes?
and just basic wild shape question, proficiencies transfer but does your prof bonus number transfer? Looking on the dnd beyond sheet, I see that my saving throw and skill check bonuses increase on a wild shape form (like with my 10 Int, my dire wolf's INT save went from +2 to +6 at level 20), but then why doesn't my proficiency bonus increase apply to attacks hit + or saving DCs (like the dire wolf prone effect?) If those are also effected by MY proficiency bonus, why does it not apply to that?
Should it but the sheet just doesn't translate it? The Druid page isn't clear (I wish stat blocks just said the prof bonus of each monster it would make 'scaling' them when I DM easier too)
If you are multiclass with the barbarian. Start with Barbarian for the con saving throw.
Also, consider taking War Caster and Resilient (Con) if you are going to use some Concentration spell such as Barkskin, Protection from Energy or Guardian of Nature.
I also have a question about the stats: How important are Str, Dex. Con and Wis to Moon druid?
Im considering those stats. Con prof aside, are there any pros to being a monk instead?
The only stat to really bump during ASIs are wis and even that is less reliant than other subclasses
Yea so that doesn't answer. A level 20 druid will have a proficiency bonus of 6 while a dire wolf has a prof of 2+3 from their STR giving their bite a +5... Shouldn't a level 20 replace the wolf's prof bonus with his own now giving the bite a +9?
Besides for + weapons that regular characters will get, their stat & prof bonuses keep increasing where the druid's attack remain the same. Shouldn't the prof be used?
Multiclassing with barbarian means you need 13+ Strength, which most druids drop. But most want to get at least 14 Dexterity, so multiclassing is easier. And since you're a full-caster, you'll also be stacking Wisdom anyway. Remember, you retain all your mental statistics when using [Combat] Wild Shape, so AC will continue to go up as you increase your spellcasting stat.
Honestly, though, the multiclassing isn't that big a deal. Let's look at two examples, the brown bear and dire wolf. Assuming a +3 Wisdom modifier, your dip doesn't really matter. Either way, the AC is going to be 13 for the bear and 15 for the wolf. Both are a pittance, and you're electing to multiclass when, at the same level if you didn't, you could blow a 2nd-level spell slot for [Tooltip Not Found] and have an AC of 16. Even at super high levels, when you can become a mammoth, you're only looking at a net bonus to AC of +2.
Wisdom, over the long haul, is better if you're looking to get the most out of AC. Especially with the elemental forms, which you can take at higher levels. And if you elect barbarian, then you're waiting for two turns to begin raging. It'll help a little with absorbing and dealing damage, but think about how much productivity you lose in the meantime.
Unless you have a very specific level/play style in mind, I tend to think that multiclassing out of Circle of the Moon Druid is detrimental. You end up trading some feature from another class for the improvements to your wildshape. This tends to make the levels where Wildshape is already mediocre for the Druid into flat out bad levels. Unless the feature you’re trading for is amazing, you’re probably going from bad to worse.
Taking 2 levels of paladin means delaying your wild shapes by practically a CR, your Druid spell casting by an entire spell level, and your spell slot progression by a level.
Losing those additional features from the Druid have to be accounted for when determining how much of a net gain a particular muticlass would be. There is quite a significant damage loss in missing out on a CR, not only from damage but also from loss of to hit bonuses. Higher CR creatures do also tend to have (maybe only slightly) higher ACs as well, so missing out on a CR bump to take levels in order to get an AC bump also has to be weighed.
Note that you do not re-compute the to hit bonuses in stat blocks, you use them as they are (they are neither saving throws or skill proficiencies, and the caster is not proficient in them outside of wildshape. Also, as with most entries in a stat block, they are not necessarily always built obviously).
From my personal experience, moon druid is a really good damage sponge, and has some great out of combat utility spells. I didn't really spec mine for damage, and wildshape by itself falls off on that front. With a more offensive spell selection I could probably catch up a bit, but the party role I have been trying to fill is more tank/support. Your friends are getting huge spells? Druids are full casters, so are you. You just have less incentive to be a blaster.
That said, I say embrace that your damage will fall off relative to the [insert damagey build] and go for the forms that let you create non damage problems. "That's a nice assassin npc you got there, it would be a shame if they got grappled and kept out of reach from anyone but the damage sponge" type thing.
The 2 charge cost of elemental shaping is real but, they are SO much better than the beasts you have access to at 10 that it's totally worth it.
[Edited to finish a sentence because I fat fingered post before I was done. Yay phones]