My players are nearing the end of Curse of Strahd, but they want to go all the way up to level 20. They really enjoy my DM-ing style (the world is shit and they can't defend everyone), and although I haven't had to "nerf" them much (basically, I don't shower them with magic items and that's it), to maintain that sense of danger and constant dread, I believe I'll have to. I'm considering capping their HP at level 10 (but not their Hit Dice) and making it so Long Rests don't heal them. I don't like super epic stories and I can only use "cosmic threat #76" a limited number of times before it becomes mundane and boring.
TL;DR: I'm a horror/dark fantasy DM. I want to cap my PCs HP at level 10 and remove healing from long rests to be able to create good/fun (tier 4) adventures that don't involve world-ending threats all the time.
What you're describing is what 3.5 edition described as Epic Level 6, basically the characters HP stopped when they reached that level and afterwards they just got feats to level themselves up. No reason it couldn't work in 5e with a cap at level 10 and then either just give them feats or level features without the HP increase. Personally I think both capping their HP and having no healing on a long rest would become a bit harsh together if they're fighting high level monsters a lot but I don't usually want my players to die, if your players are up for it then go for it.
And I think that's key, it wont work if you don't get player buy in ahead of time. Have a conversation with your players and tell them what you have in mind and see what they say. Having 300 HP and fighting god like beings might be exactly why they want to go to Level 20 in which case your idea wont work at all and will be a pretty miserable experience for everyone. Or they might love the idea in which case you'll all have a great time
I think it will throw something out of whack. If you’re doing it so lower-teir monsters can still be a threat, you still have to contend with the higher power budget of the characters. If the casters can still throw around chain lightning and destructive wave, and the fighter is attacking 3 times, and the rogue has an ever growing pile of sneak attack dice, it will end up not mattering too much that the enemies can still hurt the PCs, the characters will be able to steamroll the lower hit points numbers that the t1 and t2 monsters have.
And those t4 monsters hit like trucks. I think you’ll find that using a t4 monster against a party with t2 hit points will lead to a lot of characters getting 1-shot, or at least going down in 1 round after getting hit with a multiattack. Which is certainly grim and gritty, but I'm not sure if it’s fun.
What you're describing is what 3.5 edition described as Epic Level 6...
I had no idea 3.5 had done that and I played it for several years, I feel validated, hahaha. But yeah, I always discuss everything (except story stuff) with my players before putting it in the game, and even then I'm open to remove or change things that are not fun. In fact, the reason I'm thinking about this is to keep things fun.
Yeah, that's what might happen, but my hypothesis is that the amount of resources they get from their classes will help mitigate that swingyness, and any small hole I might be able to fill with a magic item.
My players are nearing the end of Curse of Strahd, but they want to go all the way up to level 20. They really enjoy my DM-ing style (the world is shit and they can't defend everyone), and although I haven't had to "nerf" them much (basically, I don't shower them with magic items and that's it), to maintain that sense of danger and constant dread, I believe I'll have to. I'm considering capping their HP at level 10 (but not their Hit Dice) and making it so Long Rests don't heal them. I don't like super epic stories and I can only use "cosmic threat #76" a limited number of times before it becomes mundane and boring.
TL;DR: I'm a horror/dark fantasy DM. I want to cap my PCs HP at level 10 and remove healing from long rests to be able to create good/fun (tier 4) adventures that don't involve world-ending threats all the time.
For the type of game you're describing these are all good options. You might also consider Fear and Horror mechanics too, but I'd advise checking in with players that they're cool with those being added in case of any particular sensitivities or issues.
If you really want to go hard, don't nerf healing or hit points at all. Instead introduce arguably the most mean optional rule that exists. Gritty Realism You absolutely need to adjust the frequency of combat and the timelines of adventures but boy does this hurt the player characters. It's definitely not for everyone and the DM has to do some work to make the adjustment work, but it can work in the right situations.
My players are nearing the end of Curse of Strahd, but they want to go all the way up to level 20. They really enjoy my DM-ing style (the world is shit and they can't defend everyone), and although I haven't had to "nerf" them much (basically, I don't shower them with magic items and that's it), to maintain that sense of danger and constant dread, I believe I'll have to. I'm considering capping their HP at level 10 (but not their Hit Dice) and making it so Long Rests don't heal them. I don't like super epic stories and I can only use "cosmic threat #76" a limited number of times before it becomes mundane and boring.
TL;DR: I'm a horror/dark fantasy DM. I want to cap my PCs HP at level 10 and remove healing from long rests to be able to create good/fun (tier 4) adventures that don't involve world-ending threats all the time.
For the type of game you're describing these are all good options. You might also consider Fear and Horror mechanics too, but I'd advise checking in with players that they're cool with those being added in case of any particular sensitivities or issues.
If you really want to go hard, don't nerf healing or hit points at all. Instead introduce arguably the most mean optional rule that exists. Gritty Realism You absolutely need to adjust the frequency of combat and the timelines of adventures but boy does this hurt the player characters. It's definitely not for everyone and the DM has to do some work to make the adjustment work, but it can work in the right situations.
Yeah, the Slow Natural Healing optional rule is exactly what I had in mind. We're already using a system to simulate stress and fear and I don't want to overcomplicate my players' lives with stuff like injuries and massive damage, but I thought about those at some point. I'll probably introduce my ideas after some discussion and make changes if needed.
I don't think capping HP will do all that much, because the damage output of the party and the utility options for the party will still increase with their level. For instance:
Does it matter what their HP is if the wizard is using True Polymorph to become a dracolich? Or if the Druid is casually conjuring a Mammoth to help the party? Or if the Barbarian is dealing 25-30 damage on each attack?
Personally, I'd suggest talking with the players about why they want to go to level 20. The main point of getting to level 20 is to wield god-like powers to fight world-ending monsters. If that's not what you or they want to do, then why go to level 20? You could easily just keep them at level 10, and instead of levelling up, they can pick up an ASI or a feat every so often.
The long rests idea is interesting, but capping HP to make it more gritty only in the fact that their going to be eating a lot of dirt. If you throw, say, an Adult Red Dragon at them, the breath weapon will knock out the caster and deal more than enough damage to bloody martials. The rules are balanced in a certain way, so I would recommend going onto DM's Guild or something (perchance Dms Alt Rules?) and find other ways to make campaigns darker.
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He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones. Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
"You see a gigantic, monstrous praying mantis burst from out of the ground. It sprays a stream of acid from it's mouth at one soldier, dissolving him instantly, then it turns and chomps another soldier in half with it's- "
You could make increasing their con modifier increase their max HP, but that would only work for so long. I guess give each of them a magic item that slowly give them temp HP by half the average HP they would gain from level up, but only every other level. And if the item is removed, the temp HP would be removed.
Essentially, these remove the "you heal everything at a long rest", they remove "it's more efficient to heal someone who's already down than someone on 1hp", and makes long-haul adventures wear down on the adventureres. Gritty & Consequential dying has been populare enough to go bestseller!
For capping their HP, it could work - the challenge then becomes finding balanced encounters for them, as they will progressively become more glass-cannon like. a level 20 fighter with level 10 health will either destroy a combat by attacking so many times, or they will roll low on initiative and die to the first hit. Most monsters are built to scale in both damage output and hitpoints, so if you cap their max hp, you will find the monsters start to skew off in one direction or another. they'll either have a cakewalk, or they'll die in the opening fight. And woe betide them if they ever get ambushed - the surprise round could do them in.
Have the mists take them to other domains of dread. You can also prep shorter adventures to string them together with a small thread. Perhaps someone is trying to take over the domains for themselves posing as a patron and having adventurers do their dirty work for them?
For now I'll introduce no healing after long rests and see how things develop from there. If they are still having an easy time, I'll cap their HP to level 15 and see how it goes, etc. The way I think I could balance encounters is by keeping in my how much HP does the PC with the lowest HP have, and make sure there are few instances in which a creature would be able to one-shot them. Most of my problems come from the fact I put my party against only one or two enemies once every few days, which is something D&D is just not designed to do, so I'm thinking of ways to mitigate them; but I'll probably just switch to a different game once we reach level 20.
My players are nearing the end of Curse of Strahd, but they want to go all the way up to level 20. They really enjoy my DM-ing style (the world is shit and they can't defend everyone), and although I haven't had to "nerf" them much (basically, I don't shower them with magic items and that's it), to maintain that sense of danger and constant dread, I believe I'll have to. I'm considering capping their HP at level 10 (but not their Hit Dice) and making it so Long Rests don't heal them. I don't like super epic stories and I can only use "cosmic threat #76" a limited number of times before it becomes mundane and boring.
TL;DR: I'm a horror/dark fantasy DM. I want to cap my PCs HP at level 10 and remove healing from long rests to be able to create good/fun (tier 4) adventures that don't involve world-ending threats all the time.
What you're describing is what 3.5 edition described as Epic Level 6, basically the characters HP stopped when they reached that level and afterwards they just got feats to level themselves up. No reason it couldn't work in 5e with a cap at level 10 and then either just give them feats or level features without the HP increase. Personally I think both capping their HP and having no healing on a long rest would become a bit harsh together if they're fighting high level monsters a lot but I don't usually want my players to die, if your players are up for it then go for it.
And I think that's key, it wont work if you don't get player buy in ahead of time. Have a conversation with your players and tell them what you have in mind and see what they say. Having 300 HP and fighting god like beings might be exactly why they want to go to Level 20 in which case your idea wont work at all and will be a pretty miserable experience for everyone. Or they might love the idea in which case you'll all have a great time
I think it will throw something out of whack.
If you’re doing it so lower-teir monsters can still be a threat, you still have to contend with the higher power budget of the characters. If the casters can still throw around chain lightning and destructive wave, and the fighter is attacking 3 times, and the rogue has an ever growing pile of sneak attack dice, it will end up not mattering too much that the enemies can still hurt the PCs, the characters will be able to steamroll the lower hit points numbers that the t1 and t2 monsters have.
And those t4 monsters hit like trucks. I think you’ll find that using a t4 monster against a party with t2 hit points will lead to a lot of characters getting 1-shot, or at least going down in 1 round after getting hit with a multiattack. Which is certainly grim and gritty, but I'm not sure if it’s fun.
I had no idea 3.5 had done that and I played it for several years, I feel validated, hahaha. But yeah, I always discuss everything (except story stuff) with my players before putting it in the game, and even then I'm open to remove or change things that are not fun. In fact, the reason I'm thinking about this is to keep things fun.
Yeah, that's what might happen, but my hypothesis is that the amount of resources they get from their classes will help mitigate that swingyness, and any small hole I might be able to fill with a magic item.
I think what you may be looking for could be found in the DM's Workshop of the 5e DMG.
In particular I'd recommend introducing:
For the type of game you're describing these are all good options. You might also consider Fear and Horror mechanics too, but I'd advise checking in with players that they're cool with those being added in case of any particular sensitivities or issues.
If you really want to go hard, don't nerf healing or hit points at all. Instead introduce arguably the most mean optional rule that exists. Gritty Realism You absolutely need to adjust the frequency of combat and the timelines of adventures but boy does this hurt the player characters. It's definitely not for everyone and the DM has to do some work to make the adjustment work, but it can work in the right situations.
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Yeah, the Slow Natural Healing optional rule is exactly what I had in mind. We're already using a system to simulate stress and fear and I don't want to overcomplicate my players' lives with stuff like injuries and massive damage, but I thought about those at some point. I'll probably introduce my ideas after some discussion and make changes if needed.
I don't think capping HP will do all that much, because the damage output of the party and the utility options for the party will still increase with their level. For instance:
Does it matter what their HP is if the wizard is using True Polymorph to become a dracolich? Or if the Druid is casually conjuring a Mammoth to help the party? Or if the Barbarian is dealing 25-30 damage on each attack?
Personally, I'd suggest talking with the players about why they want to go to level 20. The main point of getting to level 20 is to wield god-like powers to fight world-ending monsters. If that's not what you or they want to do, then why go to level 20? You could easily just keep them at level 10, and instead of levelling up, they can pick up an ASI or a feat every so often.
The long rests idea is interesting, but capping HP to make it more gritty only in the fact that their going to be eating a lot of dirt. If you throw, say, an Adult Red Dragon at them, the breath weapon will knock out the caster and deal more than enough damage to bloody martials. The rules are balanced in a certain way, so I would recommend going onto DM's Guild or something (perchance Dms Alt Rules?) and find other ways to make campaigns darker.
He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones. Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
"You see a gigantic, monstrous praying mantis burst from out of the ground. It sprays a stream of acid from it's mouth at one soldier, dissolving him instantly, then it turns and chomps another soldier in half with it's- "
"When are we gonna take a snack break?"
You could make increasing their con modifier increase their max HP, but that would only work for so long. I guess give each of them a magic item that slowly give them temp HP by half the average HP they would gain from level up, but only every other level. And if the item is removed, the temp HP would be removed.
Increasing con modifiers already boosts max HP.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If you're interested, I have written some supplements which make resting and dying more gritty and realistic!
Gritty and Consequential Dying (Links to my Forum post)
Gritty Guide to Realistic Resting (again, links to the forum)
Essentially, these remove the "you heal everything at a long rest", they remove "it's more efficient to heal someone who's already down than someone on 1hp", and makes long-haul adventures wear down on the adventureres. Gritty & Consequential dying has been populare enough to go bestseller!
For capping their HP, it could work - the challenge then becomes finding balanced encounters for them, as they will progressively become more glass-cannon like. a level 20 fighter with level 10 health will either destroy a combat by attacking so many times, or they will roll low on initiative and die to the first hit. Most monsters are built to scale in both damage output and hitpoints, so if you cap their max hp, you will find the monsters start to skew off in one direction or another. they'll either have a cakewalk, or they'll die in the opening fight. And woe betide them if they ever get ambushed - the surprise round could do them in.
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Have the mists take them to other domains of dread. You can also prep shorter adventures to string them together with a small thread. Perhaps someone is trying to take over the domains for themselves posing as a patron and having adventurers do their dirty work for them?
For now I'll introduce no healing after long rests and see how things develop from there. If they are still having an easy time, I'll cap their HP to level 15 and see how it goes, etc. The way I think I could balance encounters is by keeping in my how much HP does the PC with the lowest HP have, and make sure there are few instances in which a creature would be able to one-shot them. Most of my problems come from the fact I put my party against only one or two enemies once every few days, which is something D&D is just not designed to do, so I'm thinking of ways to mitigate them; but I'll probably just switch to a different game once we reach level 20.