Currently running a level 14 party of 4, 2 of which are sorcerers who are using summons a ton to breese through fights. Currently all their summons are too powerful for even extremely tanky monsters I use, but all monsters that could survive the summons also would deal ridiculous amounts of damage to them, making it feel quite unfair. I also don't want to directly nerf them since that would just be unfun for the players.
What are they using? Conjure minor elementals for mephit spam? In any case, I recommend large area effects and doing ridiculous amounts of damage to them.
Increase the monster quantity. You can go lower CR, so no one monster is overpowering, but do to the increase quantity of them, you still have enough power to tie up the summoned creatures and still go after the PCs.
You can also not have them all show up at once. You bring them on, and if they summoned, then the next round more show up.
You're now in the higher levels of play - even WotC's writers struggle at this point. If you look at higher level adventures, often WotC's writers undermined player abilities by creating things that changes how the game plays. Consider death in Strahd, or the Crown of Lies in Vecna. These were effectively nerfs on the player.
My experience, and most of the adventures as a GM I've run have run to level 19/20, you have to throw out the CR calcs once you surpass level 12. You sort of need to fly on instinct. However, here are some of the more useful tips I've picked up over the years:
Assume that players (using 5e/2014 rules) who can conjure or summon will do so. Factor in some low level enemies to counter these. Give the enemy you want the party to face a few zombie henchmen, or a sword wraith warrior as a guardian. Doing this might seem unfair, but it really isn't. Don't expect the enemies to survive the summons.
Consider what magic items you've given the party. If the party have more than 3 magic items per character, you need to start planning for more difficult encounters. Magic items really do power up the party past what the writers and designers of the game ever really recognised in the core books.
Consider the geography of the encounter. What I mean by this is that obstacles, chokepoints, and tight corridors can make a huge difference. If the players are sending out summons or mainly magic users, tight corridors limit their field of vision and by extension how far away they can cast magic. In short - doom arenas fail to work well at higher levels.
Consider what homebrew rules you have in place - if you're allowing potions as a bonus action, you've handed the party an easy ride. The enemies effectively take an extra round of damage while losing a round of their own damage. Having to choose between dealing damage, or healing is a choice that most game designers (of other systems) have decided is meaningful. The little tweaks to the ruleset can really swing things when you reach the higher levels. A bonus action potion at a low level seems really small and not that meaningful, at higher levels.
Adventuring days should exist and are meaningful. It can be hard for sure to develop combats where you're getting those 6-8 medium to hard encounters per adventuring day - but that was a design guideline for a reason. That amount of encounter develops meaningful choice in how the player characters use their limited resources. The takeaway here then is that you should try to pack in more encounters per adventuring day and between rests. If that warlock can't get a short rest, and they wasted their spell slots in the easy early encounter, the next combat is going to be a real challenge. This is honestly my assessment of where most folks go wrong at high level play. They throw out the slog. If player characters have meaningful choices on how to utilise their limited resources, they don't spam the same spells over and over.
Explore some of the more advanced rules from the Dungeon Masters' Guide (2014). Injuries can alter the way the game plays, so too can healer's kit dependency. These add in more ways to use the resources that the player characters have but can change up the way that combat works which is particularly effective at making higher level play more engaging and more of a challenge if that's what you're looking for.
Another thing, specifically about conjuring or summoning spells. I often restrict these for the sake of speed. This choice is somewhat born out by the redesign of the spells in 5.5e/2024. Take conjure woodland beings for example, if the player character is conjuring eight woodland beings they can only attack a maximum of two enemies. Basically, I don't want to be getting into combats where we have eight new actors on the battlefield each attacking their own targets, rolling their own dice and suchlike. It grinds combat down to an absolute crawl and I've hated that since 2014. So, I basically say that the player character can direct the woodland beings to split into a maximum of two groups. There's a single dice roll for each group to hit, and a single load of damage which is then multiplied. So if we have two groups of four conjures, the first group roll their to hit and their damage. The damage is then multiplied by 4. Now, while I did this primarily for speed within combat I feel like the spell was never originally conceived to be used as eight individual creatures, but as one large force - especially as this is how it was redesigned in the 2024 ruleset. It allows for a reduced tactical usage of the spell, and for players of 2014 they have to relearn how to use this spell most effectively, but it I feel makes good sense.
I've saved the most important point to last though - D&D is not balanced, nor should it be.
In 5 and 5.5e everything, and I mean everything starts off in the player characters' favour. 5e and 5.5e are designed in such a way that the odds dictate player character success more than half the time.
Do remember though - no two tables are the same. Even when I run tables for different groups, the tables will work differently and that's a good thing. As long as everyone is enjoying the game, there's ultimately nothing to fix. Remember, this isn't player vs. GM. This is the GM building an adventure playground and enjoying the solutions the players come up with to get through the obstacle course. The main point here is the enjoyment of the game.
I'm curious as to what's being summoned that lets the party breeze through combat?
Consider for a moment that with higher level casting of Conjure Woodland Beings you can add six Dryads to the board. Not a lot on their own perhaps, but in the right setting they can slow down approaching enemies to a halt. With two characters who have access to the spell you're talking about adding twelve Dryads.
Worse still, imagine this. Imagine every character has access to this spell and they all cast it in round 1. You could conceivably be adding 96 Sprites or Blink Dogs to the field! (24 CR 1/4 creatures from 8th level spell slot, cast by four different player characters). Even assuming only one casting of the spell you're looking at potential 24x1d6 worth of damage from a single spell cast - which could last several turns. Given that a Blink Dog has 22hp, and there are 24 of them even a high level enemy can be swarmed and surrounded by these things to the point that the enemy is wasting turns slashing through the conjured creatures while the party is peppering them with ranged damage.
These kinds of summon/conjure spells are far more effective that most DMs ever really consider if you allow players to choose what creatures they're bringing onto the field. Give those summons the right terrain and they are a force to behold when used well. They have great usage too in exploring dungeons. Imagine a player character casts this and sends their force of blink dogs round each corner first. They tank any traps too. As I say more utility and more power than most DMs realise. It's almost a shame they were nerfed so heavily in 5.5e
Consider for a moment that with higher level casting of Conjure Woodland Beings you can add six Dryads to the board.
Well, he did specify sorcerer, which limits the list (in fact, I can't find any sorcerer summons, though Animate Objects serves a similar problematic purpose).
Consider for a moment that with higher level casting of Conjure Woodland Beings you can add six Dryads to the board.
Well, he did specify sorcerer, which limits the list (in fact, I can't find any sorcerer summons, though Animate Objects serves a similar problematic purpose).
Off the top of my head isn't Summon Aberration a Sorcerer thing? I'm fairly sure it is. And yeah you're only summoning one of them but iirc you can summon Beholderkin. In fact I'm sure I've had that happen in a previous campaign. Sure you're not getting multiples of them, but given that PB of the summon works of the sorcerer's stats it's feasible you're summoning a creature with some real high 'To Hit' bonuses. If Beholderkin their rays are pretty high range too, so they can get in a good few shots before a martial focused enemy gets within range. Position it well and it's a good enough tank while the rest of the party pepper the enemy.
I'm curious as to what's being summoned that lets the party breeze through combat?
Consider for a moment that with higher level casting of Conjure Woodland Beings you can add six Dryads to the board. Not a lot on their own perhaps, but in the right setting they can slow down approaching enemies to a halt. With two characters who have access to the spell you're talking about adding twelve Dryads.
Worse still, imagine this. Imagine every character has access to this spell and they all cast it in round 1. You could conceivably be adding 96 Sprites or Blink Dogs to the field! (24 CR 1/4 creatures from 8th level spell slot, cast by four different player characters). Even assuming only one casting of the spell you're looking at potential 24x1d6 worth of damage from a single spell cast - which could last several turns. Given that a Blink Dog has 22hp, and there are 24 of them even a high level enemy can be swarmed and surrounded by these things to the point that the enemy is wasting turns slashing through the conjured creatures while the party is peppering them with ranged damage.
These kinds of summon/conjure spells are far more effective that most DMs ever really consider if you allow players to choose what creatures they're bringing onto the field. Give those summons the right terrain and they are a force to behold when used well. They have great usage too in exploring dungeons. Imagine a player character casts this and sends their force of blink dogs round each corner first. They tank any traps too. As I say more utility and more power than most DMs realise. It's almost a shame they were nerfed so heavily in 5.5e
Well, if someone's pulling that kind of tactic (which first of all only lasts an hour and can only be done once per day), it would inspire me to adopt an old Shadowrun adage: geek the mage first. By 14th level, the party should regularly be fighting things that are smart enough to recognize spellcasters and prioritize attacking them, and even with a constitution save of +7-+9, eventually they're going to fail the concentration check.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Off the top of my head isn't Summon Aberration a Sorcerer thing? I'm fairly sure it is.
Summon Aberration and Summon Construct are sorcerer subclass things, but I was assuming summons that are actually powerful enough to be a game-distorting threat at level 14.
(Legacy) Conjure Animals (7th level), conjure 24 velociraptor. Combined HP 240, attack bonus +4 with pack tactics, combined damage 24d6+24d4+96 (240). Using wolf instead it drops to a mere 48d4+48 (168).
Summon Aberration (7th level), summon beholderkin. HP 70, attack bonus +10 or more, damage 3d8+30 (44). Slaad does an additional 3.
Summon Construct (7th level), any. HP 85, attack bonus +10 or more, damage 3d8+33 (47).
You know, if the tactics they're using are truly disruptive to the game, you can ask them to tone it down. Odds are, the players who aren't doing this are also feeling annoyed by the tactic as well.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
EX: Making the summons go against them and they have to roll animal handling. If it is a ritual then say the ritual goes wrong and summon an entirely different creature and have it go against the players, the players are always shocked when this happens
From level 4 on, I use tougher monsters than the CR suggests.
I don't like adding lots of monsters. It bogs down the game. So I instead use tougher monsters or increase the stats and abilities of what is there...for example, adding multiattack and more hp can help make things challenging.
I have had level 5 characters face cr7-8 at times (not constantly...some challenges should be easy). The battles with tougher monsters are harder, and the players will likely complain...but if they win, they are always very satified.
It might surprise you, but even though players might use every advantage they have...they usually want things to ge challenging. I've had players be very happy that they died in battle...because most DMs do not challenge them enough or try not to kill them.
I usually have up to 140 people wanting in my games, and I limit to either 5 or 6 players.
EX: Making the summons go against them and they have to roll animal handling. If it is a ritual then say the ritual goes wrong and summon an entirely different creature and have it go against the players, the players are always shocked when this happens
Just randomly having summoned monsters go hostile to the PCs is really not good GMing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
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Currently running a level 14 party of 4, 2 of which are sorcerers who are using summons a ton to breese through fights. Currently all their summons are too powerful for even extremely tanky monsters I use, but all monsters that could survive the summons also would deal ridiculous amounts of damage to them, making it feel quite unfair. I also don't want to directly nerf them since that would just be unfun for the players.
What are they using? Conjure minor elementals for mephit spam? In any case, I recommend large area effects and doing ridiculous amounts of damage to them.
Increase the monster quantity. You can go lower CR, so no one monster is overpowering, but do to the increase quantity of them, you still have enough power to tie up the summoned creatures and still go after the PCs.
You can also not have them all show up at once. You bring them on, and if they summoned, then the next round more show up.
You're now in the higher levels of play - even WotC's writers struggle at this point. If you look at higher level adventures, often WotC's writers undermined player abilities by creating things that changes how the game plays. Consider death in Strahd, or the Crown of Lies in Vecna. These were effectively nerfs on the player.
My experience, and most of the adventures as a GM I've run have run to level 19/20, you have to throw out the CR calcs once you surpass level 12. You sort of need to fly on instinct. However, here are some of the more useful tips I've picked up over the years:
Another thing, specifically about conjuring or summoning spells. I often restrict these for the sake of speed. This choice is somewhat born out by the redesign of the spells in 5.5e/2024. Take conjure woodland beings for example, if the player character is conjuring eight woodland beings they can only attack a maximum of two enemies. Basically, I don't want to be getting into combats where we have eight new actors on the battlefield each attacking their own targets, rolling their own dice and suchlike. It grinds combat down to an absolute crawl and I've hated that since 2014. So, I basically say that the player character can direct the woodland beings to split into a maximum of two groups. There's a single dice roll for each group to hit, and a single load of damage which is then multiplied. So if we have two groups of four conjures, the first group roll their to hit and their damage. The damage is then multiplied by 4. Now, while I did this primarily for speed within combat I feel like the spell was never originally conceived to be used as eight individual creatures, but as one large force - especially as this is how it was redesigned in the 2024 ruleset. It allows for a reduced tactical usage of the spell, and for players of 2014 they have to relearn how to use this spell most effectively, but it I feel makes good sense.
I've saved the most important point to last though - D&D is not balanced, nor should it be.
In 5 and 5.5e everything, and I mean everything starts off in the player characters' favour. 5e and 5.5e are designed in such a way that the odds dictate player character success more than half the time.
Do remember though - no two tables are the same. Even when I run tables for different groups, the tables will work differently and that's a good thing. As long as everyone is enjoying the game, there's ultimately nothing to fix. Remember, this isn't player vs. GM. This is the GM building an adventure playground and enjoying the solutions the players come up with to get through the obstacle course. The main point here is the enjoyment of the game.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Thank you a lot for the information, it'll be very helpful!
I'm curious as to what's being summoned that lets the party breeze through combat?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Consider for a moment that with higher level casting of Conjure Woodland Beings you can add six Dryads to the board. Not a lot on their own perhaps, but in the right setting they can slow down approaching enemies to a halt. With two characters who have access to the spell you're talking about adding twelve Dryads.
Worse still, imagine this. Imagine every character has access to this spell and they all cast it in round 1. You could conceivably be adding 96 Sprites or Blink Dogs to the field! (24 CR 1/4 creatures from 8th level spell slot, cast by four different player characters). Even assuming only one casting of the spell you're looking at potential 24x1d6 worth of damage from a single spell cast - which could last several turns. Given that a Blink Dog has 22hp, and there are 24 of them even a high level enemy can be swarmed and surrounded by these things to the point that the enemy is wasting turns slashing through the conjured creatures while the party is peppering them with ranged damage.
These kinds of summon/conjure spells are far more effective that most DMs ever really consider if you allow players to choose what creatures they're bringing onto the field. Give those summons the right terrain and they are a force to behold when used well. They have great usage too in exploring dungeons. Imagine a player character casts this and sends their force of blink dogs round each corner first. They tank any traps too. As I say more utility and more power than most DMs realise. It's almost a shame they were nerfed so heavily in 5.5e
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Well, he did specify sorcerer, which limits the list (in fact, I can't find any sorcerer summons, though Animate Objects serves a similar problematic purpose).
Off the top of my head isn't Summon Aberration a Sorcerer thing? I'm fairly sure it is. And yeah you're only summoning one of them but iirc you can summon Beholderkin. In fact I'm sure I've had that happen in a previous campaign. Sure you're not getting multiples of them, but given that PB of the summon works of the sorcerer's stats it's feasible you're summoning a creature with some real high 'To Hit' bonuses. If Beholderkin their rays are pretty high range too, so they can get in a good few shots before a martial focused enemy gets within range. Position it well and it's a good enough tank while the rest of the party pepper the enemy.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Well, if someone's pulling that kind of tactic (which first of all only lasts an hour and can only be done once per day), it would inspire me to adopt an old Shadowrun adage: geek the mage first. By 14th level, the party should regularly be fighting things that are smart enough to recognize spellcasters and prioritize attacking them, and even with a constitution save of +7-+9, eventually they're going to fail the concentration check.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Summon Aberration and Summon Construct are sorcerer subclass things, but I was assuming summons that are actually powerful enough to be a game-distorting threat at level 14.
You know, if the tactics they're using are truly disruptive to the game, you can ask them to tone it down. Odds are, the players who aren't doing this are also feeling annoyed by the tactic as well.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I made some sort of consequence for this
EX: Making the summons go against them and they have to roll animal handling. If it is a ritual then say the ritual goes wrong and summon an entirely different creature and have it go against the players, the players are always shocked when this happens
From level 4 on, I use tougher monsters than the CR suggests.
I don't like adding lots of monsters. It bogs down the game. So I instead use tougher monsters or increase the stats and abilities of what is there...for example, adding multiattack and more hp can help make things challenging.
I have had level 5 characters face cr7-8 at times (not constantly...some challenges should be easy). The battles with tougher monsters are harder, and the players will likely complain...but if they win, they are always very satified.
It might surprise you, but even though players might use every advantage they have...they usually want things to ge challenging. I've had players be very happy that they died in battle...because most DMs do not challenge them enough or try not to kill them.
I usually have up to 140 people wanting in my games, and I limit to either 5 or 6 players.
CR 8 is only 3,900 xp, that's within budget for 4 x level 5.
I currently have a level 14 party of four and I just sent them up against a CR 22. They were fine.
Just randomly having summoned monsters go hostile to the PCs is really not good GMing.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.