I've got a player running a warlock with the Raven Queen patron. The question has come about as to what happens if the raven is attacked while they're merged. My response was that attacks would be against his AC and HP, as the RAW only state he changes his size and speed to that of the raven. The player is trying to argue that he can't be targeted by attacks or spells because "you gain the benefits of your raven being perched on your shoulder." He's saying that should include being unable to be targeted, but I think that's a bit OP and doesn't follow many other spells...but I could be wrong.
Thoughts? Can the raven be targeted while merged? Do I use the stats for a raven or for the player if they are attacked? If incapacitated, do both he and the raven reduce to 0 HP, thus sending the raven into the void?
Just curious on other DM opinions before I make a 'final' ruling.
First of all, this is UA, but I looked it up to answer you.
Relevant quotes:
During this time, you gain the benefits of your raven being perched on your shoulder.
While the raven is perched on your shoulder, you gain darkvision with a range of 30 feet and a bonus to your passive Wisdom (Perception) score and to Wisdom (Perception) checks. The bonus equals your Charisma modifier.
While perched on your shoulder, the raven can't be targeted by any attack or other harmful effect; only you can cast spells on it; it can't take damage; and it is incapacitated.
So, no, he is not untargetable, but his raven is.
The language is not very clear, probably because it was in playtest and was never polished to clear up confusion.
But, if he merges with it through Raven Soul, how does that work? He flies around as a raven that can't be targeted by spells or abilities? I mean, he can't attack in that form, but it makes for an invincible scout which is a bit crazy, I think. I mean, it does state the raven can't be targeted while it's perched on your shoulder...and it does say you gain the benefits of the raven being perched on your shoulder. So, that does sound like that's how it's supposed to go. Basically, the only thing that could target you would be something with truesight?
Okay, consider this "While perched on your shoulder, the raven can't be targeted by any attack or other harmful effect; only you can cast spells on it; it can't take damage; and it is incapacitated."
But that is contrary to "While merged, you become Tiny, you replace your speed with the raven's, and you can use your action only to Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, or Search." Which doesn't say anything about you not becoming incapacitated.
It is only refering to the abilities the player gains by having their raven on their shoulder, not the abilities the raven gains by being on their shoulder. The player and the raven merge, but the player did not become the raven, their abilities are separate.
Finally, the DM (you I'm assuming) has final say. Try this, "No, that is too broken and is not my interpretation of that ability. If you have a problem with that, I will allow you to change patrons."
To be fair, it does say "you gain the benefits of your raven being perched on your shoulder," not that you gain all traits or aspects of your raven being perched on your shoulder. Is the raven being incapacitated a benefit? Is being able to avoid any attack or harmful effect a benefit?
I agree with DxJxC, insofar as how I would rule it as a DM, but the wording is rather muddled and could be taken different ways.
What I'm sure was intended is that the merged you-raven gains darkvision (30 ft) and a bonus to Perception equal to your Charisma modifier. That's the perched raven's "benefit." Everything after that is just the raven's condition during that time.
Appreciate it, all! I've just got one of those rule lawyer, loophole searching kind of players that I have to deal with. I ended up ruling essentially as everyone said here. He gets darkvision, which he's already got, and he gets the CHA bonuses, but that's it. Maintains his stat blocks and takes on size and speed of the raven. Thanks again!
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I've got a player running a warlock with the Raven Queen patron. The question has come about as to what happens if the raven is attacked while they're merged. My response was that attacks would be against his AC and HP, as the RAW only state he changes his size and speed to that of the raven. The player is trying to argue that he can't be targeted by attacks or spells because "you gain the benefits of your raven being perched on your shoulder." He's saying that should include being unable to be targeted, but I think that's a bit OP and doesn't follow many other spells...but I could be wrong.
Thoughts? Can the raven be targeted while merged? Do I use the stats for a raven or for the player if they are attacked? If incapacitated, do both he and the raven reduce to 0 HP, thus sending the raven into the void?
Just curious on other DM opinions before I make a 'final' ruling.
First of all, this is UA, but I looked it up to answer you.
Relevant quotes:
So, no, he is not untargetable, but his raven is.
The language is not very clear, probably because it was in playtest and was never polished to clear up confusion.
But, if he merges with it through Raven Soul, how does that work? He flies around as a raven that can't be targeted by spells or abilities? I mean, he can't attack in that form, but it makes for an invincible scout which is a bit crazy, I think. I mean, it does state the raven can't be targeted while it's perched on your shoulder...and it does say you gain the benefits of the raven being perched on your shoulder. So, that does sound like that's how it's supposed to go. Basically, the only thing that could target you would be something with truesight?
Okay, consider this "While perched on your shoulder, the raven can't be targeted by any attack or other harmful effect; only you can cast spells on it; it can't take damage; and it is incapacitated."
https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/appendix-a-conditions#Incapacitated
But that is contrary to "While merged, you become Tiny, you replace your speed with the raven's, and you can use your action only to Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, or Search." Which doesn't say anything about you not becoming incapacitated.
It is only refering to the abilities the player gains by having their raven on their shoulder, not the abilities the raven gains by being on their shoulder. The player and the raven merge, but the player did not become the raven, their abilities are separate.
Finally, the DM (you I'm assuming) has final say. Try this, "No, that is too broken and is not my interpretation of that ability. If you have a problem with that, I will allow you to change patrons."
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ModeratorTo be fair, it does say "you gain the benefits of your raven being perched on your shoulder," not that you gain all traits or aspects of your raven being perched on your shoulder. Is the raven being incapacitated a benefit? Is being able to avoid any attack or harmful effect a benefit?
I agree with DxJxC, insofar as how I would rule it as a DM, but the wording is rather muddled and could be taken different ways.
What I'm sure was intended is that the merged you-raven gains darkvision (30 ft) and a bonus to Perception equal to your Charisma modifier. That's the perched raven's "benefit." Everything after that is just the raven's condition during that time.
Appreciate it, all! I've just got one of those rule lawyer, loophole searching kind of players that I have to deal with. I ended up ruling essentially as everyone said here. He gets darkvision, which he's already got, and he gets the CHA bonuses, but that's it. Maintains his stat blocks and takes on size and speed of the raven. Thanks again!