Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Hi there!
WARNING: Possible spoilers from Lost Mine of Phandelver.
I want to change the final boss of Lost Mine of Phandelver (a drow called Nezznar) and make him transform into a drider during the fight after losing Lloth's favour.
Would it be too much for a lvl 4 group of 4 players?
Thanks in advance.
They'd already be pretty beat up from the dungeon crawl, assuming they haven't long rested, so that would probably not go well for them.
What if they had a long rest? Would it be a fair fight or will they be smashed by the drider?
Then they'd likely win, but it would be difficult. The Xanathar's encounter builder puts that at about Deadly difficulty. If there are creatures other than the Drider, the party is probably toast.
The real challenge of Wave Echo Cave however is that this is a large dungeon (don't forget that the grid in the cave is actually 10ft, not the usual 5ft). In addition, the wandering monsters make finding a place to long or short rest within the cave challenging at best. There are if I remember correctly just three rooms which can be secured well enough to take a rest uninterrupted within the cave.
Assuming a 6 hour walk to Wave Echo Cave (15 miles), and the fewest number of encounters between the entrance to the boss (two) the party aren't going to have expended enough of the day to be able to take a long rest yet. Even if you assume the maximum number of non-random encounters (nine) between the entrance the boss the party are still very unlikely to have burned enough time to be able to take another long rest. Even disregarding combat encounters, Wave Echo Cave would take only around 10 hours to fully explore (assuming 30 minutes spent per 'room'). That's only just barely enough (6hrs travel + 10hrs exploring) to warrant a long rest. My point here? Wave Echo Cave is challenging enough if you don't go 'easy' on the characters and allow them to take long rests 'early'.
Back to the point though. Here's how a Drider final boss shakes out in my experience:
I've run this more than just the three times, but these are from my DM notes on the adventure. The point here is that the options you choose to use or allow have a massive impact on the way this adventure plays out. Just the presence of a Druid for example can ensure that the party steamroll most of the encounters within Lost Mine. It is for this reason that in Phendelver and Below, the final fight becomes Nezznar and two bugbears. Nezznar's updated stat block makes him a bit more fearsome too. Discounting old Nezznar's spells, he had a +1 to hit with an average of 5 damage on a single staff attack. New Nezznar has two Poison Blast attacks per round with a +5 to hit, and average damage of 9. He's a lot more beefy. However, he needs to be to account for classes not in the basic rules, multiclassing, and the presence of feats.
My opinion honestly is to run Wave Echo Cave as written, if you're playing with pre gens. If not, run the Plandelver and Below version of Wave Echo Cave, it's built for all the options there. If playing 5.5e, then substitute the Phandelver and Below stat blocks for those found in the 2025 Monster Manual.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
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It's a very interesting idea. Like above mentioned, the mine is huge, and most players, especially new ones, would probably not just blast through to the final boss and instead would take their time exploring. You may want to cut out minions if you do, because driders are no joke. Spellcasting, climbing, and fairly good attacks, a weakened party would probably not have much of a chance. The final encounter is plenty fun without a second phase in my experience.
He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones. Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
"You see a gigantic, monstrous praying mantis burst from out of the ground. It sprays a stream of acid from it's mouth at one soldier, dissolving him instantly, then it turns and chomps another soldier in half with it's- "
"When are we gonna take a snack break?"
Thank you both for your replies. I will take everything you said into account.
It is true that the combat as it's written is already challenging, but the story I've created for Nezznar is more complex than the story given in the adventure, so him becoming a Drider is a pivotal moment in my adventure. I will see how I fix the situation. Maybe reducing the amount of monsters in order to make them arrive to the final battle more fresh, even if that reduces the difficulty. Or maybe allowing them to long rest during the dungeon. I'll see.
Frankly, I am surprised anyone is saying a Drider would, on its own, be a threat. It is only CR 6, and even resource deprived, most level 4 parties can punch 2 levels above their weight.
Your best bet is going to be to run a Drider, then prepare for combat to be still too easy. I think Martintheactor’s suggested fights seem reasonable. If you are still nervous, you can always start smaller, but have additional monsters be summoned as lair actions if the fight is too easy.
Well, it can depend on the experience and preferences of the group. A group of optimized players with 50 years of experience will annihilate the fight, and a group of new players using pregenerated characters will likely crumble. It would be a more accurate estimate if we could get more info on the party.
He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones. Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
"You see a gigantic, monstrous praying mantis burst from out of the ground. It sprays a stream of acid from it's mouth at one soldier, dissolving him instantly, then it turns and chomps another soldier in half with it's- "
"When are we gonna take a snack break?"
I have 4 groups running this campaign at the moment. 3 out of them are new players, but they've created their own characters. The other group is a mix: experienced players mixed with new players.
I admit I've never looked at the adventure, but I think it's more likely to depend on how the DM plays the Drider. If it uses Web to immobilize the party and plays keep-away with its mobility, a 4th-level party probably doesn't have the ranged firepower to fight back. If it gets stuck in in melee, it's gonna lose unless the party is really worn down.