Skip melee; it's high risk and high reward; ranged can probably get the job done more safely. Unfortunately if we go ranged, the change of knocking her out in 1 round is considerably reduced (wasn't very high to start; but Galtheons melee DPS is roughly double his ranged).
I also take back what I said: destroying the nest may have tactical advantage if they all hide behind the throne, though it's not a long-term safe option for them.
The way I see it we still need Silence (no wax, and just having advantage means someone will still get got); if we can cast it last, that's a bonus (because we could have bless up), but perhaps we should just start with it.
Silence cast as per previous: at the junction of the nest area and the mountain; that means the next is mostly covered (in case melee has to happen), and we have a 20' semicircle of silence on mountain side. It has the advantage that is they fly down, we can safely walk to the edge to shoot. Alternative is more of silence is on mountainside -- that might depend on the exact availability of useful cover.
Sneak ranged attack with surprise first round hopefully
Still use Shatter (before Silence; casting silence could be a reaction) since it has the possibility of softening up all the others (and increasing their desire to flee). A 10' radious sphere covers almost the entire nest.
Everybody else uses their best most damaging first volley
Subsequent rounds, Taraven uses level 1 MM - it's 1d4 less damage, but it means she can do another shatter is she wants to, or do the higher level MM at a point when we know it matters.
As you say, there's a chance we can keep advantage by moving around in the rocks, but I'm clear how these rules work -- one has to have line of sight to shoot, so...is it sneak rolls before each attack?
Big One may/will ultimately try to fly away, not sure what we can do about that. Frost at least slows her. Silence on edge is essesntial if she flies down.
Mud map of Silence suggestion (has been deliberately moved off-centre); silence 20' radius, nest 20x20:
Broad approach:
cast hunter's mark and bless (edit: looking at what bless does, it may not help)
Perhaps cast guidance (instead of bless) for anyone who needs to move into specific positions
get into position
cast shatter;
Evan's reaction: cast silence (bless goes down, if it was up)
everyone else's reaction: shoot with their best first strike (hopefully all at advantage)
Edit: I have no problem with silence being 5' further back, so long as melee can happen on nest (behind throne) if necessary.
Edit 2: we need a strategy for if the Silence goes down...
[[Wow things have happened! My ranged options are mostly a Circlet of Blasting I can use once, but that could light the nest on fire and get a couple of other hits off if we wanted.]]
(( ooc: Nice Circlet! 3 separate attacks on the one target, each doing 2d6...if you get advantage (and roll OK) that's a serious first strike! Looking at your character sheet...it looks wrong...it should be +5 to hit, not +2 ))
[In my opinion, Silence is a waste of a spell unless it is cast on the party as a last resort, and only if they attack us. Splitting the party by closing to melee range would also be a big mistake to my mind. We need to get them come to us when we are in a fortified position far from the edge of the cliff.]
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Tyrus Mountson: Lvl 3 Dwarvish Bard; Waterdeep Campaign (Dragon Heist) Nanoc the Younger: Semi-retired Lvl 2 Rogue / Level 2 Barbarian Human; The Knuckle, Mror Holds, Ebberon. The Honourable Jaden Fellan: Level 3 Human Eldritch Knight; Band of Sunswall
AKA: Phillip Berrie: writer, editor and academic thrillseeker—a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
(( ooc: Nice Circlet! 3 separate attacks on the one target, each doing 2d6...if you get advantage (and roll OK) that's a serious first strike! Looking at your character sheet...it looks wrong...it should be +5 to hit, not +2 ))
[[It is +5. I guess D&D Beyond doesn't quite handle spells cast by items right.]]
Silence is a waste of a spell unless it is cast on the party
Yeah, I agree, and that's the plan...the party would be in the bottom half of the circle....am I missing something obvious?
Are you saying you'd prefer it not even on any part of the nest? I could live with that...but I still say we need to have a decent area of silence on the edge so we can shoot down if necessary...hence the 60/40-ish split I have.
Can you explain in simple terms why it's bad where it is? I'm just confused...
We *must* prevent Evan from being got by a song that has a 300' radius..****y way to do that is with an initial cast.
Their simplest tactic...fly down, all sing...we'd have to each make 4 saves to avoid a TPK
And I agree re melee as well: revised plan is all ranged (as per your very reasonable objections to my Leeroy maneuver). However for us to get plausible Advantage on subsequent turns, don't we inherently need to split up: make ranged attacks...presumably after stealth(?)...from a different locations?
[I was mostly basing my objection to Silence on your mud map. The harpies aren't constrained to the ledge, whereas the party is and falling of the ledge would be likely an automatic death.
My opinion would change if the ranged attacks are all made from a safe distance (i.e., far away from the edge) using ranged weapons, so that the party will not only have a greater chance of getting a Surprise round with Bless + Guidance Advantage (Evan is unlikely to be able sneak close with his Plate Armour), but also perhaps a second round of Blessed range Attacks, if it wins the Initiative—Guidance doesn't require Concentration.
Evan could then throw his Silence spell in the second round around the party and allow the ranged weapons user to make their attacks in Silence while the harpies were forced to close on the group from a distance, if they don't decide to just flee... All the above is predicated on focus fire on the Leader to take her out first. She has an AC of at least 17 and will be very hard to kill and is most likely the glue keeping the others here.]
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Tyrus Mountson: Lvl 3 Dwarvish Bard; Waterdeep Campaign (Dragon Heist) Nanoc the Younger: Semi-retired Lvl 2 Rogue / Level 2 Barbarian Human; The Knuckle, Mror Holds, Ebberon. The Honourable Jaden Fellan: Level 3 Human Eldritch Knight; Band of Sunswall
AKA: Phillip Berrie: writer, editor and academic thrillseeker—a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
- I like the idea of attacking the leader, and once she is down trying to scatter the rest. The difficulty is that, if we want to talk with them, Silence is not an option, and they could betray us quickly to our skydiving doom (although I think we would get a second save to avoid walking off a cliff, as I understand the way it works). The scattering may be more missile weapons and aggression than calm discussions because of this.
- Evan has a crowbar and a miner's pick if someone wants to try the boulder approach.
- With a hardened leader like this, it is unlikely the harpies will leave the area or stop hunting dwarves (and the occasional horse), so leaving the situation unresolved is not appealing to Evan.
- We really need Nanoc with us, so addressing his concerns appropriately would be very wise.
- Any strategy that includes the party outside of the range of a silence spell when the harpies start having turns is bad, as they can fly out of its range and all start singing at us to lure us over the cliff (as Galtheon noted). Evan has two second level spell slots, and he will probably want to have both reserved for silence, especially if the first one goes down.
-While within Silence, Evan's spellcasting is totally shut down, but he is a capable melee defensive warrior and would likely just use the dodge action and be a target in case the harpies fly into melee with us.
-Evan can't keep up Bless and Silence at the same time, as they are both concentration spells.
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Gerrard Feldren - Human Noble in Ghosts of Saltmarsh
Kerric Brightblade - Elven Warrior in "Apocalypse"
...unfortunately, Guidance does require concentration, sorry...
I like the idea about getting more attacks off before silence, but it is pretty risky. If we can find a place more than 60 feet away from the cliff edge with still line of sight to fire into the nest, we'll be gambling that any charmed people are close enough after moving to be in the range of a silence spell (so at least within 40' of each other) and that Evan is able to resist the charms himself to actually cast the spell.
That being said, if Nanoc is not with us because he is set on leaving the harpies alone, I think we should call off the attack. The presence of a warrior leader may change his mind, I don't know. This will be hard enough with everyone participating.
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Gerrard Feldren - Human Noble in Ghosts of Saltmarsh
Kerric Brightblade - Elven Warrior in "Apocalypse"
[[ Ahh....I think I see where we have a difference of reality: I think the maximum distance we can get from the edge is about 50'...and forum search is broken, so it's hard to check...perhaps we need clarification! If correct, it means an unrestrained charmed character is dead in one round.
Minor correction: Guidanceis concentration. That's why I thought Ilecerys was the right one to get it.
Here's my worry (which may be incorrect because I don't understand surprise well enough): We get surprise, initiative is rolled, suppose we win initiative too. We all attack Big Bird. She doesn't die (likely). Harpies can't move, but they all sing...everyone is faced with 4 normal saving throws (no wax in ears) + 1d4. That seems like a real risk of everyone dead, or hard choices. Last night we almost lost Evan when there was just one singer.
Clarification of the above question may resolve this and mean our strategies merge. eg. if it's only 50' wide, then Evan casts Silence where he is now (or as near as he can feasibly get), making sure there's decent overlap with edge (so we can shoot down). I'd still like intersection with the nest, but the tactical benefit of more room to run around in is also appealing.
The final problem I see is their range is greater than (most of) ours. If we had enough space, we could all get herd immunity (sorry), but I'm pretty sure we don't have more than 50-60' to the edge.
[[ Re: Spells and silence, I made reference to this a couple of times before:
Assume the singers are identifiable. If they all sing, we just range Big Bird...but, they are not attacking, so win.
Assume 1 or 2 sing.
Assume we can identify them...they are not throwing stuff. They are probably hoping to lure us over the edge.
Caster walks out of silence opposite the harpy. If they fail their save, they walk towards hapy...and into silence. If they succeed, they cast and move back into silence.
Worst case -- if we can't identify singers -- someone without ranged attacks has a rope attached to caster....and drags them back if they stray more than 5' out. Edit: Probably wouldn't work with Evan who is stronger than all of us...
I'd suggest silence is not a complete shutdown for casters. ]]
[DM, Is the position where Nanoc is looking after the horses a relatively safe one in terms of possible predators? Base 20 roll: 8 +2 for Survival, +4 for Perception.
Also, how long would it take him (and what rolls would he need to make) for him to join the rest?
He has been quietly cursing Okkar for joining in this silly escapade and may be changing his mind based on the answer to the above rolls and questions.]
Nanoc can tell that there is very little to threaten the horses in this region, if they are properly tied off. Other predators why away from the presence of the Harpy camp, so assuming they do not go on a patrol and notice the horses, the horses are safe.
If he accepts the signal to join the others, no rolls are needed per se as the climb has been secured with a Harness, and the room is waiting behind cover and in silence. He can rejoin them within a few short minutes, after making the climb, they are just tense minutes while the party waits and quietly plots their attack.
(( DM: Need a ruling on Hunter's Mark; it's divination and not attack, so I assume it affects the caster, not the target. Does this mean it can be safely cast while at a good distance, before we engage in melee, and without much chance of the target knowing? This is distinct from Hex which in an enchantment and 'places a curse' upon a creature...so I guess the latter may be detectable. ))
Specifically because Hunter's Mark can involve use for tracking targets in addition to its damaging properties I would judge the target is not made aware of it, and it is heightening the skills and senses of the caster.
Given that Mage Hand cannot carry more than 10 lbs, and it typically used for simple tasks like opening a door, it lacks both the strength and the precise control needed to send a boulder rolling, in this case.
Stealth: For full clarify on my understanding of "stealth rules" and how they will be handled, per 5e:
Initiaitve is rolled normally.
The sneaking people roll stealth vs the Passive Perception of the enemies.
Anyone who beats the PP of the enemies acts in the first round - in effect the Surprise round, though 5e does not call it that.
The enemies, and anyone who did not beat the Passive Perception of the enemies, does not act in the first round.
Enemies do not grand advantage during surprise rounds by default - nowhere is this specifically provided in surprise rules, though a few niche class archetype features do add that. However, those who beat the enemy Passive will act in the "surprise round," those who beat it by 5 will act with Advantage, per this case by case ruling.
In essence there is a round where the only ones who take actions are those who "win" at stealth.
[[ Ahh....I think I see where we have a difference of reality: I think the maximum distance we can get from the edge is about 50'...and forum search is broken, so it's hard to check...perhaps we need clarification! If correct, it means an unrestrained charmed character is dead in one round.
Minor correction: Guidanceis concentration. That's why I thought Ilecerys was the right one to get it.
Here's my worry (which may be incorrect because I don't understand surprise well enough): We get surprise, initiative is rolled, suppose we win initiative too. We all attack Big Bird. She doesn't die (likely). Harpies can't move, but they all sing...everyone is faced with 4 normal saving throws (no wax in ears) + 1d4. That seems like a real risk of everyone dead, or hard choices. Last night we almost lost Evan when there was just one singer.
Clarification of the above question may resolve this and mean our strategies merge. eg. if it's only 50' wide, then Evan casts Silence where he is now (or as near as he can feasibly get), making sure there's decent overlap with edge (so we can shoot down). I'd still like intersection with the nest, but the tactical benefit of more room to run around in is also appealing.
The final problem I see is their range is greater than (most of) ours. If we had enough space, we could all get herd immunity (sorry), but I'm pretty sure we don't have more than 50-60' to the edge.
]]
A couple of clarifications: The Luring Song allows for another save before crossing into difficult terrain, which would include potentially being lured to walk off of a cliff. There is also the additional save at the end of each turn. That said, bad rolls do happen, and a Silence spell directly mitigates the chance of this happening, given its area of effect.
Also a note on silence, so long as the party is within the silence, it does not matter if the Harpies leave the area - the party is still immune to audio based effects and spells. If they manage to break the caster's concentration that changes things. However, note it is unlikely they are knowledgeable about magic to guess that it is the well armored figure producing the spell, rather than the Tiefling who "looks like a caster," or even the Half Elf Monk who appears more likely to be the source of the spell, from a quick glance from untrained eyes.
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(( How about:
Skip melee; it's high risk and high reward; ranged can probably get the job done more safely. Unfortunately if we go ranged, the change of knocking her out in 1 round is considerably reduced (wasn't very high to start; but Galtheons melee DPS is roughly double his ranged).
I also take back what I said: destroying the nest may have tactical advantage if they all hide behind the throne, though it's not a long-term safe option for them.
The way I see it we still need Silence (no wax, and just having advantage means someone will still get got); if we can cast it last, that's a bonus (because we could have bless up), but perhaps we should just start with it.
Mud map of Silence suggestion (has been deliberately moved off-centre); silence 20' radius, nest 20x20:
Broad approach:
Edit: I have no problem with silence being 5' further back, so long as melee can happen on nest (behind throne) if necessary.
Edit 2: we need a strategy for if the Silence goes down...
[[Wow things have happened! My ranged options are mostly a Circlet of Blasting I can use once, but that could light the nest on fire and get a couple of other hits off if we wanted.]]
(( ooc: Nice Circlet! 3 separate attacks on the one target, each doing 2d6...if you get advantage (and roll OK) that's a serious first strike! Looking at your character sheet...it looks wrong...it should be +5 to hit, not +2 ))
[In my opinion, Silence is a waste of a spell unless it is cast on the party as a last resort, and only if they attack us. Splitting the party by closing to melee range would also be a big mistake to my mind. We need to get them come to us when we are in a fortified position far from the edge of the cliff.]
---
Tyrus Mountson: Lvl 3 Dwarvish Bard; Waterdeep Campaign (Dragon Heist)
Nanoc the Younger: Semi-retired Lvl 2 Rogue / Level 2 Barbarian Human; The Knuckle, Mror Holds, Ebberon.
The Honourable Jaden Fellan: Level 3 Human Eldritch Knight; Band of Sunswall
AKA: Phillip Berrie: writer, editor and academic thrillseeker—a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
[[It is +5. I guess D&D Beyond doesn't quite handle spells cast by items right.]]
(( seeing the circlet, is this a useful refinement:
- no bless, but guidance on Ilecerys?
- Taravens reaction to the scorching rays is shatter
- Evans reaction to shatter is Silence? ))
Yeah, I agree, and that's the plan...the party would be in the bottom half of the circle....am I missing something obvious?
Are you saying you'd prefer it not even on any part of the nest? I could live with that...but I still say we need to have a decent area of silence on the edge so we can shoot down if necessary...hence the 60/40-ish split I have.
Can you explain in simple terms why it's bad where it is? I'm just confused...
We *must* prevent Evan from being got by a song that has a 300' radius..****y way to do that is with an initial cast.
Their simplest tactic...fly down, all sing...we'd have to each make 4 saves to avoid a TPK
And I agree re melee as well: revised plan is all ranged (as per your very reasonable objections to my Leeroy maneuver). However for us to get plausible Advantage on subsequent turns, don't we inherently need to split up: make ranged attacks...presumably after stealth(?)...from a different locations?
[I was mostly basing my objection to Silence on your mud map. The harpies aren't constrained to the ledge, whereas the party is and falling of the ledge would be likely an automatic death.
My opinion would change if the ranged attacks are all made from a safe distance (i.e., far away from the edge) using ranged weapons, so that the party will not only have a greater chance of getting a Surprise round with Bless + Guidance Advantage (Evan is unlikely to be able sneak close with his Plate Armour), but also perhaps a second round of Blessed range Attacks, if it wins the Initiative—Guidance doesn't require Concentration.
Evan could then throw his Silence spell in the second round around the party and allow the ranged weapons user to make their attacks in Silence while the harpies were forced to close on the group from a distance, if they don't decide to just flee... All the above is predicated on focus fire on the Leader to take her out first. She has an AC of at least 17 and will be very hard to kill and is most likely the glue keeping the others here.]
---
Tyrus Mountson: Lvl 3 Dwarvish Bard; Waterdeep Campaign (Dragon Heist)
Nanoc the Younger: Semi-retired Lvl 2 Rogue / Level 2 Barbarian Human; The Knuckle, Mror Holds, Ebberon.
The Honourable Jaden Fellan: Level 3 Human Eldritch Knight; Band of Sunswall
AKA: Phillip Berrie: writer, editor and academic thrillseeker—a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Evan:
A few tactical observations:
- I like the idea of attacking the leader, and once she is down trying to scatter the rest. The difficulty is that, if we want to talk with them, Silence is not an option, and they could betray us quickly to our skydiving doom (although I think we would get a second save to avoid walking off a cliff, as I understand the way it works). The scattering may be more missile weapons and aggression than calm discussions because of this.
- Evan has a crowbar and a miner's pick if someone wants to try the boulder approach.
- With a hardened leader like this, it is unlikely the harpies will leave the area or stop hunting dwarves (and the occasional horse), so leaving the situation unresolved is not appealing to Evan.
- We really need Nanoc with us, so addressing his concerns appropriately would be very wise.
- Any strategy that includes the party outside of the range of a silence spell when the harpies start having turns is bad, as they can fly out of its range and all start singing at us to lure us over the cliff (as Galtheon noted). Evan has two second level spell slots, and he will probably want to have both reserved for silence, especially if the first one goes down.
-While within Silence, Evan's spellcasting is totally shut down, but he is a capable melee defensive warrior and would likely just use the dodge action and be a target in case the harpies fly into melee with us.
-Evan can't keep up Bless and Silence at the same time, as they are both concentration spells.
Gerrard Feldren - Human Noble in Ghosts of Saltmarsh
Kerric Brightblade - Elven Warrior in "Apocalypse"
Evan:
...unfortunately, Guidance does require concentration, sorry...
I like the idea about getting more attacks off before silence, but it is pretty risky. If we can find a place more than 60 feet away from the cliff edge with still line of sight to fire into the nest, we'll be gambling that any charmed people are close enough after moving to be in the range of a silence spell (so at least within 40' of each other) and that Evan is able to resist the charms himself to actually cast the spell.
That being said, if Nanoc is not with us because he is set on leaving the harpies alone, I think we should call off the attack. The presence of a warrior leader may change his mind, I don't know. This will be hard enough with everyone participating.
Gerrard Feldren - Human Noble in Ghosts of Saltmarsh
Kerric Brightblade - Elven Warrior in "Apocalypse"
[[ Ahh....I think I see where we have a difference of reality: I think the maximum distance we can get from the edge is about 50'...and forum search is broken, so it's hard to check...perhaps we need clarification! If correct, it means an unrestrained charmed character is dead in one round.
Minor correction: Guidance is concentration. That's why I thought Ilecerys was the right one to get it.
Here's my worry (which may be incorrect because I don't understand surprise well enough): We get surprise, initiative is rolled, suppose we win initiative too. We all attack Big Bird. She doesn't die (likely). Harpies can't move, but they all sing...everyone is faced with 4 normal saving throws (no wax in ears) + 1d4. That seems like a real risk of everyone dead, or hard choices. Last night we almost lost Evan when there was just one singer.
Clarification of the above question may resolve this and mean our strategies merge. eg. if it's only 50' wide, then Evan casts Silence where he is now (or as near as he can feasibly get), making sure there's decent overlap with edge (so we can shoot down). I'd still like intersection with the nest, but the tactical benefit of more room to run around in is also appealing.
The final problem I see is their range is greater than (most of) ours. If we had enough space, we could all get herd immunity (sorry), but I'm pretty sure we don't have more than 50-60' to the edge.
]]
[[ Re: Spells and silence, I made reference to this a couple of times before:
I'd suggest silence is not a complete shutdown for casters. ]]
Nanoc can tell that there is very little to threaten the horses in this region, if they are properly tied off. Other predators why away from the presence of the Harpy camp, so assuming they do not go on a patrol and notice the horses, the horses are safe.
If he accepts the signal to join the others, no rolls are needed per se as the climb has been secured with a Harness, and the room is waiting behind cover and in silence. He can rejoin them within a few short minutes, after making the climb, they are just tense minutes while the party waits and quietly plots their attack.
Specifically because Hunter's Mark can involve use for tracking targets in addition to its damaging properties I would judge the target is not made aware of it, and it is heightening the skills and senses of the caster.
Given that Mage Hand cannot carry more than 10 lbs, and it typically used for simple tasks like opening a door, it lacks both the strength and the precise control needed to send a boulder rolling, in this case.
[[ ooc: lol it's not just the players who face a wall of text every morning! ]]
Stealth: For full clarify on my understanding of "stealth rules" and how they will be handled, per 5e:
Initiaitve is rolled normally.
The sneaking people roll stealth vs the Passive Perception of the enemies.
Anyone who beats the PP of the enemies acts in the first round - in effect the Surprise round, though 5e does not call it that.
The enemies, and anyone who did not beat the Passive Perception of the enemies, does not act in the first round.
Enemies do not grand advantage during surprise rounds by default - nowhere is this specifically provided in surprise rules, though a few niche class archetype features do add that. However, those who beat the enemy Passive will act in the "surprise round," those who beat it by 5 will act with Advantage, per this case by case ruling.
In essence there is a round where the only ones who take actions are those who "win" at stealth.
A couple of clarifications: The Luring Song allows for another save before crossing into difficult terrain, which would include potentially being lured to walk off of a cliff. There is also the additional save at the end of each turn. That said, bad rolls do happen, and a Silence spell directly mitigates the chance of this happening, given its area of effect.
Also a note on silence, so long as the party is within the silence, it does not matter if the Harpies leave the area - the party is still immune to audio based effects and spells. If they manage to break the caster's concentration that changes things. However, note it is unlikely they are knowledgeable about magic to guess that it is the well armored figure producing the spell, rather than the Tiefling who "looks like a caster," or even the Half Elf Monk who appears more likely to be the source of the spell, from a quick glance from untrained eyes.