Is there an official ruling on this topic? If so, where can I find it? I believe that a PC (e.g., a ranger) with the dual wielder feat, using a second weapon with the Nick property, could attack three times a round at 4th level, and four times a round at 5th level. I am the only person in our group who believes this is the correct interpretation, and I need something official to back me up. Thanks!
In addition to that being how it works when looking at the rules in plain English, look into interviews around the release of the books. The devs talked about this exact combo and confirmed it works that way.
Is there an official ruling on this topic? If so, where can I find it? I believe that a PC (e.g., a ranger) with the dual wielder feat, using a second weapon with the Nick property, could attack three times a round at 4th level, and four times a round at 5th level. I am the only person in our group who believes this is the correct interpretation, and I need something official to back me up. Thanks!
It is the case, but I don't know if there's ever been an official statement as to it.
However, what's the counterargument? Why do they not think this works:
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon,
So, you attack with a Light weapon.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Because you're using a Nick weapon, and have Nick mastery, the extra attack of the Light property gets made a part of your regular attack, not as a bonus action.
Therefore, you have your bonus action available for other abilities.
Now, here's where it gets a bit tricky, rules-wise:
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Lightproperty, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon,
It's easy to think that this is just a modification of the Light weapon property, much like Nick is.
However, it doesn't mention the Light property's extra attack at all. It just says that, if you attack with a light weapon, you get to make a bonus action attack. Without Nick, you've got two abilities (Light and Dual Wielder) that both give you a bonus action attack when you attack with a Light weapon, and, since you have only one Bonus Action, you only get to use one of them. But the other's still there. If you had an ability that gave you two bonus actions, then you could use both Light and Dual Wielder's additional attacks.
Now, Nick doesn't give you another bonus action, but it does remove the bonus action requirement of the Light property's additional attack. It also restricts the extra attack of the Light property to once a turn. (There are reasons for this, but they're not important here.)
However, you have a bonus action attack ability that is not the additional attack of the Light property, but instead comes from a feat. Since you have the bonus action still, you can use it to make the extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat.
This is more mechanically fussy than it ought to be, and they scattered it all over the rulebook, but it does hold together.
Supporting argument: If it doesn't give you an additional attack above and beyond the one you'd be entitled to anyway, Dual Wielder is an absolutely awful feat, with no good reason to take it.
Additional supporting argument: It may feel like letting you take two extra attacks lets you do a lot more damage than other players, but it's actually comparable to the sort of damage other characters get for taking the fighting styles and feats appropriate to their weapons. Here's a very complete breakdown of the numbers somebody else did in another thread. (It's in the context of whether a particular edge-case of the mechanics is or should be allowed; don't worry about it, and scroll to the part that starts with "hold my Sprite" if you really want to see.)
I suggest running all this by your DM. Ultimately, if they don't like it, it's their table, and they can house-rule it. If they have further questions about how it's supposed to work, we can probably answer them.
This is an excellent write up, and the counter-arguments (from two other DM's, we rotate DMing) are two-fold. One counter-argument is simply that four attacks a round (at 5th level) is too powerful (i.e., one DM even called it an exploit). The other more detailed counter-argument is based on "Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook" which states:
"When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding. The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action. Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack." My response is that the dual wielder feat supersedes this restriction (i.e., this pertains to a character without the feat).
Right, that restriction is specifically talking about how many attacks the Light property grants, no matter the timing. Other abilities that grant BA attacks still apply. This isn't just the feat, either. War Cleric has an ability that grants such an attack. Their logic would exclude that, too, and any others.
This is an excellent write up, and the counter-arguments (from two other DM's, we rotate DMing) are two-fold. One counter-argument is simply that four attacks a round (at 5th level) is too powerful (i.e., one DM even called it an exploit).
I'd refer them to SmiteMakesRight's breakdown of the math. Mostly, it's just lots of attacks looks powerful, but they're each weak.
The other more detailed counter-argument is based on "Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook" which states:
"When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding. The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action. Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack." My response is that the dual wielder feat supersedes this restriction (i.e., this pertains to a character without the feat).
I'd refer them to the question of "what's the Dual Wielder feat good for, then?"
This is an excellent write up, and the counter-arguments (from two other DM's, we rotate DMing) are two-fold. One counter-argument is simply that four attacks a round (at 5th level) is too powerful (i.e., one DM even called it an exploit).
I'd refer them to SmiteMakesRight's breakdown of the math. Mostly, it's just lots of attacks looks powerful, but they're each weak.
Also consider lvl 5 is when Cantrips effectively double their damage. This seems to get over looked a lot, since casters tend to get way better slot spells to use that outclass martial damage, where as the cantrip scaling is competitive to them.
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In addition to that being how it works when looking at the rules in plain English, look into interviews around the release of the books. The devs talked about this exact combo and confirmed it works that way.
I agree with you, but I need something I can specifically point to (from the current D&D staff, not Jeremy Crawford as he left).
Crawford absolutely counts, as he was part of the staff when the interviews were held.
It is the case, but I don't know if there's ever been an official statement as to it.
However, what's the counterargument? Why do they not think this works:
So, you attack with a Light weapon.
Because you're using a Nick weapon, and have Nick mastery, the extra attack of the Light property gets made a part of your regular attack, not as a bonus action.
Therefore, you have your bonus action available for other abilities.
Now, here's where it gets a bit tricky, rules-wise:
It's easy to think that this is just a modification of the Light weapon property, much like Nick is.
However, it doesn't mention the Light property's extra attack at all. It just says that, if you attack with a light weapon, you get to make a bonus action attack. Without Nick, you've got two abilities (Light and Dual Wielder) that both give you a bonus action attack when you attack with a Light weapon, and, since you have only one Bonus Action, you only get to use one of them. But the other's still there. If you had an ability that gave you two bonus actions, then you could use both Light and Dual Wielder's additional attacks.
Now, Nick doesn't give you another bonus action, but it does remove the bonus action requirement of the Light property's additional attack. It also restricts the extra attack of the Light property to once a turn. (There are reasons for this, but they're not important here.)
However, you have a bonus action attack ability that is not the additional attack of the Light property, but instead comes from a feat. Since you have the bonus action still, you can use it to make the extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat.
This is more mechanically fussy than it ought to be, and they scattered it all over the rulebook, but it does hold together.
Supporting argument: If it doesn't give you an additional attack above and beyond the one you'd be entitled to anyway, Dual Wielder is an absolutely awful feat, with no good reason to take it.
Additional supporting argument: It may feel like letting you take two extra attacks lets you do a lot more damage than other players, but it's actually comparable to the sort of damage other characters get for taking the fighting styles and feats appropriate to their weapons. Here's a very complete breakdown of the numbers somebody else did in another thread. (It's in the context of whether a particular edge-case of the mechanics is or should be allowed; don't worry about it, and scroll to the part that starts with "hold my Sprite" if you really want to see.)
I suggest running all this by your DM. Ultimately, if they don't like it, it's their table, and they can house-rule it. If they have further questions about how it's supposed to work, we can probably answer them.
This is an excellent write up, and the counter-arguments (from two other DM's, we rotate DMing) are two-fold. One counter-argument is simply that four attacks a round (at 5th level) is too powerful (i.e., one DM even called it an exploit). The other more detailed counter-argument is based on "Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook" which states:
"When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding. The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action. Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack." My response is that the dual wielder feat supersedes this restriction (i.e., this pertains to a character without the feat).
Right, that restriction is specifically talking about how many attacks the Light property grants, no matter the timing. Other abilities that grant BA attacks still apply. This isn't just the feat, either. War Cleric has an ability that grants such an attack. Their logic would exclude that, too, and any others.
I'd refer them to SmiteMakesRight's breakdown of the math. Mostly, it's just lots of attacks looks powerful, but they're each weak.
I'd refer them to the question of "what's the Dual Wielder feat good for, then?"
Also consider lvl 5 is when Cantrips effectively double their damage. This seems to get over looked a lot, since casters tend to get way better slot spells to use that outclass martial damage, where as the cantrip scaling is competitive to them.