You have to start with being able to perform the S component. Then, if you also have to meet an M component you can do that with the same hand. It's not the other way around.
Ah. I see the confusion. Not every list is a sequential or ordered list. Nothing about the language used indicates an ordered list.
Components
A spell’s components are physical requirements the spellcaster must meet to cast the spell. Each spell’s description indicates whether it requires Verbal (V), Somatic (S), or Material (M) components. If the spellcaster can’t provide one or more of a spell’s components, the spellcaster can’t cast the spell.
Nothing about that language indicates any kind of order. It's just a list. There are no numbers. It never mentions, "then", "after", "before", or any other language that defines any significance to the order. You have read down the list and assumed that they had to be performed in that order. You can perform them in any order. You can perform the verbal components last. I generally assume that they are being performed simultaneously, but that's not a given either.
I don't know where the tradition for listing the components as V, S, M, but it has been the case for as long as I can remember. Personally, I would have placed it alphabetical order. Maybe "verbal, somatic, material" feels better to say than "material, somatic, verbal" or maybe it feels unnatural because of that long standing tradition.
It's like the Actions section of the rules. It defines them in order Actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions, but you are not restricted to using them in that order during your turn.
You keep missing that in the scenario being discussed there is no "somatic hand". Both hands are occupied. One is holding a mace and the other is holding a Shield. If you are wearing an amulet, yes, you can "access" the amulet with the Somatic hand if you want (even though you don't have to), but you currently don't have such a hand free. You currently cannot perform the S component. You have to start with being able to perform the S component. Then, if you also have to meet an M component you can do that with the same hand. It's not the other way around. The lack of the need to physically hold the M component does not erase the requirement of having to physically perform the S component with a free hand. [emphasis added]
There is no "order" to this, only identity. The "somatic hand" is merely the hand being used to perform Somatic components. It is allowed to be the same hand as the one accessing/holding/bearing/wielding the material components, component pouch, or focus. That's all there is to it.
No, there's not an order per se, it's just easier to resolve it that way due to how the rules are actually written. To meet the Somatic component requirement, "A spellcaster must use at least one of their hands to perform these movements." That's just Full Stop. You must perform gestures with at least one hand. Before figuring out anything to do with your focus, this means that one of your hands must actually be free to perform these gestures. Then, if you also have an M component requirement, you can satisfy that M component requirement of accessing the materials with your hand by using the same hand as you are already setting aside to do the gestures. Next, most people agree that when you use a Spellcasting focus (in any way) instead of accessing loose materials, you can still take advantage of the "it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components" exception if desired. That's not a given, by the way. The rules do not actually spell that out. But I am comfortable making that leap. So, from there, sure, we can work backwards and realize that whenever you are actually holding your focus or accessing loose components or reaching into a component pouch, then that hand "counts as" your free hand for your Somatic component requirement.
The problem arises during the times when you are not holding the focus with any hand. You are still using the focus, so your M component is satisfied. But if your hands are full in that situation then you simply do not have a free hand for your S component. Nothing changes that requirement. To meet the S requirement of a V, S, M spell, one hand must be either totally free, or it must be holding a focus or accessing loose materials or reaching into a component pouch. If both of your hands are holding something unrelated, such as a mace in one hand and a shield in the other hand (assume the focus is a worn amulet for this example so that we can stay on track), then you have no free hand for your S component. That situation is even more restrictive if your spell didn't even have an M component -- to meet the S requirement of a V, S spell, one hand must be totally free and that's the only option.
There is no "order" to this, only identity. The "somatic hand" is merely the hand being used to perform Somatic components. It is allowed to be the same hand as the one accessing/holding/bearing/wielding the material components, component pouch, or focus. That's all there is to it.
<snip> So, from there, sure, we can work backwards and realize that whenever you are actually holding your focus or accessing loose components or reaching into a component pouch, then that hand "counts as" your free hand for your Somatic component requirement.
That doesn't require working backwards at all. That's just true. They can be the same hand, full stop.
The problem arises during the times when you are not holding the focus with any hand. You are still using the focus, so your M component is satisfied. But if your hands are full in that situation then you simply do not have a free hand for your S component. Nothing changes that requirement. To meet the S requirement of a V, S, M spell, one hand must be either totally free, or it must be holding a focus or accessing loose materials or reaching into a component pouch.
...or bearing a focus on a shield. That's an equal rule to holding a focus. Nothing in the Somatic component rules nor the base Material component rules calls out "holding" as more special than bearing. Either requires a hand, just like "accessing."
If both of your hands are holding something unrelated, such as a mace in one hand and a shield in the other hand (assume the focus is a worn amulet for this example so that we can stay on track), then you have no free hand for your S component.
If you are wearing the amulet, and both your hands are full of non-material-component-like stuff, then you can't access the amulet (which no one here is arguing against), so you can't cast spells with M components, period. And you can't use Somatic components without Warcaster, essentially.
That situation is even more restrictive if your spell didn't even have an M component -- to meet the S requirement of a V, S spell, one hand must be totally free and that's the only option.
Yeah, basically. This is why the sentence that introduces a spell Focus as an option requires that it be used only as a substitution --- you can't do somatic components with a focus if the spell has no M component (that's a hole that Warcaster fills, kinda).
The problem arises during the times when you are not holding the focus with any hand. You are still using the focus, so your M component is satisfied. But if your hands are full in that situation then you simply do not have a free hand for your S component. Nothing changes that requirement. To meet the S requirement of a V, S, M spell, one hand must be either totally free, or it must be holding a focus or accessing loose materials or reaching into a component pouch.
...or bearing a focus on a shield. That's an equal rule to holding a focus. Nothing in the Somatic component rules nor the base Material component rules calls out "holding" as more special than bearing. Either requires a hand, just like "accessing."
Well, that's the Sage Advice interpretation and I do think that that's a better way to play, but if that's your take on what the rules actually say then we're at an impasse because I just don't see anything that would indicate that bearing a focus has anything to do with using your hand to satisfy the M component. To me, it's an example of where your hand is not required at all to meet the M component because you are using a focus that "says otherwise" in its description.
If both of your hands are holding something unrelated, such as a mace in one hand and a shield in the other hand (assume the focus is a worn amulet for this example so that we can stay on track), then you have no free hand for your S component.
If you are wearing the amulet, and both your hands are full of non-material-component-like stuff, then you can't access the amulet (which no one here is arguing against), so you can't cast spells with M components, period. And you can't use Somatic components without Warcaster, essentially.
That's interesting. My interpretation is actually less restrictive regarding that particular point. To me, substituting and subsequently using a focus is a replacement for the whole activity where "The spellcaster must have a hand free to access [loose materials]" and therefore you can still use the "same hand" exception if you are actually using a hand to hold your focus, but the entire activity of using a hand in the first place has been substituted. We also know that using a focus does not always require a hand at all (if the description of the focus "says otherwise"). So, to me, using the amulet by simply wearing it is enough to satisfy the M component for the spell. So, for example, you could cast a V, M spell in this way. The problem with that setup is that you have no way to perform the S component for a V, S, M spell.
From there, when we are determining whether or not a hand is actually being used for the focus, I see no difference between wearing the focus and bearing the focus. Sage Advice seems to think that there is a difference, but I don't know what the justification for that is within the actual text.
The problem arises during the times when you are not holding the focus with any hand. You are still using the focus, so your M component is satisfied. But if your hands are full in that situation then you simply do not have a free hand for your S component. Nothing changes that requirement. To meet the S requirement of a V, S, M spell, one hand must be either totally free, or it must be holding a focus or accessing loose materials or reaching into a component pouch.
...or bearing a focus on a shield. That's an equal rule to holding a focus. Nothing in the Somatic component rules nor the base Material component rules calls out "holding" as more special than bearing. Either requires a hand, just like "accessing."
Well, that's the Sage Advice interpretation and I do think that that's a better way to play, but if that's your take on what the rules actually say then we're at an impasse because I just don't see anything that would indicate that bearing a focus has anything to do with using your hand to satisfy the M component. To me, it's an example of where your hand is not required at all to meet the M component because you are using a focus that "says otherwise" in its description.
OK, I think I see part of the disagreement.
"Bearing" is a subset of "accessing," as I read it. You bear an emblem on a shield by putting it on the shield and then equiping the shield --- by using the shield as a carrying device, which is what "bearing" means. You're holding the shield with a hand. It's like turning the whole shield into a focus, but for stylistic reasons, the focus is just the symbol being "borne."
Basically, you're accessing the focus by wielding the shield.
If both of your hands are holding something unrelated, such as a mace in one hand and a shield in the other hand (assume the focus is a worn amulet for this example so that we can stay on track), then you have no free hand for your S component.
If you are wearing the amulet, and both your hands are full of non-material-component-like stuff, then you can't access the amulet (which no one here is arguing against), so you can't cast spells with M components, period. And you can't use Somatic components without Warcaster, essentially.
That's interesting. My interpretation is actually less restrictive regarding that particular point. To me, substituting and subsequently using a focus is a replacement for the whole activity where "The spellcaster must have a hand free to access [loose materials]" and therefore you can still use the "same hand" exception if you are actually using a hand to hold your focus, but the entire activity of using a hand in the first place has been substituted. We also know that using a focus does not always require a hand at all (if the description of the focus "says otherwise"). So, to me, using the amulet by simply wearing it is enough to satisfy the M component for the spell. So, for example, you could cast a V, M spell in this way. The problem with that setup is that you have no way to perform the S component for a V, S, M spell.
This is the other part of the disgreement. I think you still need to "access" the amulet, when it is worn. A worn amulet would be functionally the same as wearing a component pouch --- just stylistically different.
I doubt they intended for worn Amulets to allow for hands-free casting of M-but-no-S spells. But maybe?
From there, when we are determining whether or not a hand is actually being used for the focus, I see no difference between wearing the focus and bearing the focus. Sage Advice seems to think that there is a difference, but I don't know what the justification for that is within the actual text.
I don't understand why you think the Sage Advice addresses "wearing" anywhere, either way. It only uses the shield as an example.
They're usually pretty dodgy about going into any pedantic detail like this. But make no mistake, the rules for spell components can get a ton of pedantry.
. . . because the hand holding the Shield has access to the Emblem . . .
But where is the text from the rules that supports this claim? Not Sage Advice, rules text. From what I can see, the only text in the rules that addresses this subject makes it clear that an Emblem is borne, NOT held. Why would a hand holding a shield be able to access an Emblem but not an Amulet when neither of those are held objects?
In the Spells section. The reason the rules don't say
The spellcaster must have a hand free to access hold them, but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any.
Is because some spellcasting focus can be used without holding them, so having access to them suffice.
RAW you have access to an Holy Symbol Emblem borned on a Shield you hold, and its why Sage Advice official rule in this sense as well.
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Ah. I see the confusion. Not every list is a sequential or ordered list. Nothing about the language used indicates an ordered list.
Nothing about that language indicates any kind of order. It's just a list. There are no numbers. It never mentions, "then", "after", "before", or any other language that defines any significance to the order. You have read down the list and assumed that they had to be performed in that order. You can perform them in any order. You can perform the verbal components last. I generally assume that they are being performed simultaneously, but that's not a given either.
I don't know where the tradition for listing the components as V, S, M, but it has been the case for as long as I can remember. Personally, I would have placed it alphabetical order. Maybe "verbal, somatic, material" feels better to say than "material, somatic, verbal" or maybe it feels unnatural because of that long standing tradition.
It's like the Actions section of the rules. It defines them in order Actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions, but you are not restricted to using them in that order during your turn.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
No, there's not an order per se, it's just easier to resolve it that way due to how the rules are actually written. To meet the Somatic component requirement, "A spellcaster must use at least one of their hands to perform these movements." That's just Full Stop. You must perform gestures with at least one hand. Before figuring out anything to do with your focus, this means that one of your hands must actually be free to perform these gestures. Then, if you also have an M component requirement, you can satisfy that M component requirement of accessing the materials with your hand by using the same hand as you are already setting aside to do the gestures. Next, most people agree that when you use a Spellcasting focus (in any way) instead of accessing loose materials, you can still take advantage of the "it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components" exception if desired. That's not a given, by the way. The rules do not actually spell that out. But I am comfortable making that leap. So, from there, sure, we can work backwards and realize that whenever you are actually holding your focus or accessing loose components or reaching into a component pouch, then that hand "counts as" your free hand for your Somatic component requirement.
The problem arises during the times when you are not holding the focus with any hand. You are still using the focus, so your M component is satisfied. But if your hands are full in that situation then you simply do not have a free hand for your S component. Nothing changes that requirement. To meet the S requirement of a V, S, M spell, one hand must be either totally free, or it must be holding a focus or accessing loose materials or reaching into a component pouch. If both of your hands are holding something unrelated, such as a mace in one hand and a shield in the other hand (assume the focus is a worn amulet for this example so that we can stay on track), then you have no free hand for your S component. That situation is even more restrictive if your spell didn't even have an M component -- to meet the S requirement of a V, S spell, one hand must be totally free and that's the only option.
That doesn't require working backwards at all. That's just true. They can be the same hand, full stop.
...or bearing a focus on a shield. That's an equal rule to holding a focus. Nothing in the Somatic component rules nor the base Material component rules calls out "holding" as more special than bearing. Either requires a hand, just like "accessing."
If you are wearing the amulet, and both your hands are full of non-material-component-like stuff, then you can't access the amulet (which no one here is arguing against), so you can't cast spells with M components, period. And you can't use Somatic components without Warcaster, essentially.
Yeah, basically. This is why the sentence that introduces a spell Focus as an option requires that it be used only as a substitution --- you can't do somatic components with a focus if the spell has no M component (that's a hole that Warcaster fills, kinda).
Well, that's the Sage Advice interpretation and I do think that that's a better way to play, but if that's your take on what the rules actually say then we're at an impasse because I just don't see anything that would indicate that bearing a focus has anything to do with using your hand to satisfy the M component. To me, it's an example of where your hand is not required at all to meet the M component because you are using a focus that "says otherwise" in its description.
That's interesting. My interpretation is actually less restrictive regarding that particular point. To me, substituting and subsequently using a focus is a replacement for the whole activity where "The spellcaster must have a hand free to access [loose materials]" and therefore you can still use the "same hand" exception if you are actually using a hand to hold your focus, but the entire activity of using a hand in the first place has been substituted. We also know that using a focus does not always require a hand at all (if the description of the focus "says otherwise"). So, to me, using the amulet by simply wearing it is enough to satisfy the M component for the spell. So, for example, you could cast a V, M spell in this way. The problem with that setup is that you have no way to perform the S component for a V, S, M spell.
From there, when we are determining whether or not a hand is actually being used for the focus, I see no difference between wearing the focus and bearing the focus. Sage Advice seems to think that there is a difference, but I don't know what the justification for that is within the actual text.
OK, I think I see part of the disagreement.
"Bearing" is a subset of "accessing," as I read it. You bear an emblem on a shield by putting it on the shield and then equiping the shield --- by using the shield as a carrying device, which is what "bearing" means. You're holding the shield with a hand. It's like turning the whole shield into a focus, but for stylistic reasons, the focus is just the symbol being "borne."
Basically, you're accessing the focus by wielding the shield.
This is the other part of the disgreement. I think you still need to "access" the amulet, when it is worn. A worn amulet would be functionally the same as wearing a component pouch --- just stylistically different.
I doubt they intended for worn Amulets to allow for hands-free casting of M-but-no-S spells. But maybe?
I don't understand why you think the Sage Advice addresses "wearing" anywhere, either way. It only uses the shield as an example.
They're usually pretty dodgy about going into any pedantic detail like this. But make no mistake, the rules for spell components can get a ton of pedantry.
In the Spells section. The reason the rules don't say
Is because some spellcasting focus can be used without holding them, so having access to them suffice.
RAW you have access to an Holy Symbol Emblem borned on a Shield you hold, and its why Sage Advice official rule in this sense as well.