DnD 2024 Cleric Holy Symbol

Quote from kenclary >>

The problem arises during the times when you are not holding the focus with any hand.  You are still using the focus, so your M component is satisfied.  But if your hands are full in that situation then you simply do not have a free hand for your S component.  Nothing changes that requirement.  To meet the S requirement of a V, S, M spell, one hand must be either totally free, or it must be holding a focus or accessing loose materials or reaching into a component pouch.

...or bearing a focus on a shield. That's an equal rule to holding a focus. Nothing in the Somatic component rules nor the base Material component rules calls out "holding" as more special than bearing. Either requires a hand, just like "accessing." 

Well, that's the Sage Advice interpretation and I do think that that's a better way to play, but if that's your take on what the rules actually say then we're at an impasse because I just don't see anything that would indicate that bearing a focus has anything to do with using your hand to satisfy the M component.  To me, it's an example of where your hand is not required at all to meet the M component because you are using a focus that "says otherwise" in its description.  

Quote from kenclary >>

If both of your hands are holding something unrelated, such as a mace in one hand and a shield in the other hand (assume the focus is a worn amulet for this example so that we can stay on track), then you have no free hand for your S component.

If you are wearing the amulet, and both your hands are full of non-material-component-like stuff, then you can't access the amulet (which no one here is arguing against), so you can't cast spells with M components, period. And you can't use Somatic components without Warcaster, essentially.

 

That's interesting.  My interpretation is actually less restrictive regarding that particular point.  To me, substituting and subsequently using a focus is a replacement for the whole activity where "The spellcaster must have a hand free to access [loose materials]" and therefore you can still use the "same hand" exception if you are actually using a hand to hold your focus, but the entire activity of using a hand in the first place has been substituted.  We also know that using a focus does not always require a hand at all (if the description of the focus "says otherwise").  So, to me, using the amulet by simply wearing it is enough to satisfy the M component for the spell.  So, for example, you could cast a V, M spell in this way.  The problem with that setup is that you have no way to perform the S component for a V, S, M spell.

From there, when we are determining whether or not a hand is actually being used for the focus, I see no difference between wearing the focus and bearing the focus.  Sage Advice seems to think that there is a difference, but I don't know what the justification for that is within the actual text.

Quote from up2ng>>

Quote from kenclary>>

The problem arises during the times when you are not holding the focus with any hand.  You are still using the focus, so your M component is satisfied.  But if your hands are full in that situation then you simply do not have a free hand for your S component.  Nothing changes that requirement.  To meet the S requirement of a V, S, M spell, one hand must be either totally free, or it must be holding a focus or accessing loose materials or reaching into a component pouch.

...or bearing a focus on a shield. That's an equal rule to holding a focus. Nothing in the Somatic component rules nor the base Material component rules calls out "holding" as more special than bearing. Either requires a hand, just like "accessing."

Well, that's the Sage Advice interpretation and I do think that that's a better way to play, but if that's your take on what the rules actually say then we're at an impasse because I just don't see anything that would indicate that bearing a focus has anything to do with using your hand to satisfy the M component.  To me, it's an example of where your hand is not required at all to meet the M component because you are using a focus that "says otherwise" in its description.

OK, I think I see part of the disagreement.

"Bearing" is a subset of "accessing," as I read it. You bear an emblem on a shield by putting it on the shield and then equiping the shield --- by using the shield as a carrying device, which is what "bearing" means. You're holding the shield with a hand. It's like turning the whole shield into a focus, but for stylistic reasons, the focus is just the symbol being "borne."

Basically, you're accessing the focus by wielding the shield.

Quote from kenclary>>

If both of your hands are holding something unrelated, such as a mace in one hand and a shield in the other hand (assume the focus is a worn amulet for this example so that we can stay on track), then you have no free hand for your S component.

If you are wearing the amulet, and both your hands are full of non-material-component-like stuff, then you can't access the amulet (which no one here is arguing against), so you can't cast spells with M components, period. And you can't use Somatic components without Warcaster, essentially.

That's interesting.  My interpretation is actually less restrictive regarding that particular point.  To me, substituting and subsequently using a focus is a replacement for the whole activity where "The spellcaster must have a hand free to access [loose materials]" and therefore you can still use the "same hand" exception if you are actually using a hand to hold your focus, but the entire activity of using a hand in the first place has been substituted.  We also know that using a focus does not always require a hand at all (if the description of the focus "says otherwise").  So, to me, using the amulet by simply wearing it is enough to satisfy the M component for the spell.  So, for example, you could cast a V, M spell in this way.  The problem with that setup is that you have no way to perform the S component for a V, S, M spell.

This is the other part of the disgreement. I think you still need to "access" the amulet, when it is worn. A worn amulet would be functionally the same as wearing a component pouch --- just stylistically different.

I doubt they intended for worn Amulets to allow for hands-free casting of M-but-no-S spells. But maybe?

From there, when we are determining whether or not a hand is actually being used for the focus, I see no difference between wearing the focus and bearing the focus.  Sage Advice seems to think that there is a difference, but I don't know what the justification for that is within the actual text.

I don't understand why you think the Sage Advice addresses "wearing" anywhere, either way. It only uses the shield as an example.

They're usually pretty dodgy about going into any pedantic detail like this. But make no mistake, the rules for spell components can get a ton of pedantry.

Quote from up2ng >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

. . . because the hand holding the Shield has access to the Emblem . . .

 

But where is the text from the rules that supports this claim?  Not Sage Advice, rules text.  From what I can see, the only text in the rules that addresses this subject makes it clear that an Emblem is borne, NOT held.  Why would a hand holding a shield be able to access an Emblem but not an Amulet when neither of those are held objects?

In the Spells section. The reason the rules don't say

The spellcaster must have a hand free to access hold them, but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any.

Is because some spellcasting focus can be used without holding them, so having access to them suffice.

RAW you have access to an Holy Symbol Emblem borned on a Shield you hold, and its why Sage Advice official rule in this sense as well.