You don't even need to get rid of the dagger in any way, since unarmed strikes are not limited to punching.
Is this right? The Martial Arts class feature specifies:
PHB
Bonus Unarmed Strike. You can make an Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action.
Because of this, I thought Monks had to include at least some unarmed strike(s) in order to reach their max number of attacks. But if we say that any Unarmed Strike can be substituted by an attack with a Monk weapon, then that muddies the waters further...
No one is saying that an Unarmed Strike is an attack with a Monk weapon. What is being said is that an Unarmed Strike doesn't have to be a punch, so you don't need a free hand to make one. Emphasis below is mine:
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.
I think without AoO like 3e for unarmed strikes realistically they can't especially in 2024 allow it to be a light weapon. It would effectively be a free push/grapple every round for everyone who isn't using both hands, the punch part is not as relevant as if my warlock gets a free punch in it is still hitting for 0. But even with a crap save if you got the bonus action you just do it, which then needs to be resolved which then slows down play. That being said I wish they had at least made it finesse or made it a sneak attack exception as sucker punches, spy neck snaps etc are ingrained in the entertainment we consume that shapes what we want to see and play in the games.
I think without AoO like 3e for unarmed strikes realistically they can't especially in 2024 allow it to be a light weapon. It would effectively be a free push/grapple every round for everyone who isn't using both hands, the punch part is not as relevant as if my warlock gets a free punch in it is still hitting for 0.
I guess I shouldn't mention one-handed weapon juggling... Okay, I won't.
I think without AoO like 3e for unarmed strikes realistically they can't especially in 2024 allow it to be a light weapon. It would effectively be a free push/grapple every round for everyone who isn't using both hands, the punch part is not as relevant as if my warlock gets a free punch in it is still hitting for 0.
I guess I shouldn't mention one-handed weapon juggling... Okay, I won't.
I think the difference is if unarmed was light it would be a bonus attack, and lots of people have free bonus actions. If you weapon juggle you are using your multiple attacks. Unless we are talking two weapon style, which at least needs a light weapon for the off hand juggle.
It sounds logical, but also conjectural. In particular, the edge case of a monk performing more attacks when wielding a dagger seems to show cracks in the edifice.
As I see it, the edge case can be formally specified as follows:
EDIT: Some issues in the below text were pointed out, as you could see in quoted text. I've fixed it in-place to clarify for future readers. Not trying to sweep it under the rug. Thanks for pointing out the issues!
A 3rd level multi-class character is a Monk 2 / Fighter 1 (or any other class that grants a Weapon Mastery).
The character picks the dagger for its Weapon Mastery, but any weapon which is Light, has Nick and is a Monk weapon would work.
The character wields two daggers, and uses the Attack action. It performs one regular attack with one dagger, and then one more attack with the off-hand dagger thanks to Nick.
The character gets rid of one of the daggers (either because they threw it as part of their attack, or they sheath it which is free, or they simply drop it).
The character then uses their Martial Arts ability to perform an Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action (optionally, they can spend a ki point to do two Unarmed Strikes with their Bonus Action).
The next round, this can be done again, since drawing a new dagger is free as part of the attack action, so they can have a bunch of them strapped to their chest.
The above sequence thus provides 3 attacks (4 with a ki point) at the cost of an Attack + Bonus Action.
If the same character (Monk 2 / Fighter 1) was unarmed and therefore did not use a dagger (and therefore did not spend any time drawing a dagger and sheathing it either), they could only do 2 attacks (3 with a ki point).
In the absence of an explicit ruling, either in the PHB or via Sage Advice, then it is left to interpretation, which ultimately means it's the DM's call. With the above arguments for and against, I'm not sure how the average DM would rule, but it seems likely to be a divided outcome...
As a DM, I would rule that the Monk 2/Fighter 1 would only get two attacks in the second example. The PC only gets to use the Nick Mastery property when they use their Fighter ability to do so. The second example, the Monk is not using the benefit of the Fighter dual class. But if you have a dual class Monk who is not going to not use the Fighter combat ability....and just use unarmed attacks...why take Fighter dual class anyway. I think the real comparison should be what a (Monk 2/Fighter 1) can do while wielding two Light/Nick weapons versus a what a 3rd level Monk can do. Ok....seems more evenly powerful now, doesn't it!
I think without AoO like 3e for unarmed strikes realistically they can't especially in 2024 allow it to be a light weapon. It would effectively be a free push/grapple every round for everyone who isn't using both hands, the punch part is not as relevant as if my warlock gets a free punch in it is still hitting for 0.
I guess I shouldn't mention one-handed weapon juggling... Okay, I won't.
I think the difference is if unarmed was light it would be a bonus attack, and lots of people have free bonus actions. If you weapon juggle you are using your multiple attacks. Unless we are talking two weapon style, which at least needs a light weapon for the off hand juggle.
Technically, if unarmed was Light, it might not do anything because it is still not a weapon. If an unarmed strike is never a weapon, could you ever meet the requirements to attack with a different weapon? It definitely could not be used as the Bonus Attack because it is not a weapon so would always have to be an attack as part of an Attack action in order to do anything. Either way, for most characters, that would be 1 damage plus strength modifier on a hit, right? Fairly paltry.
Also, you can weapon juggle more efficiently with thrown weapons and doesn't need a feat investment.
As a DM, I would rule that the Monk 2/Fighter 1 would only get two attacks in the second example. The PC only gets to use the Nick Mastery property when they use their Fighter ability to do so. The second example, the Monk is not using the benefit of the Fighter dual class. But if you have a dual class Monk who is not going to not use the Fighter combat ability....and just use unarmed attacks...why take Fighter dual class anyway. I think the real comparison should be what a (Monk 2/Fighter 1) can do while wielding two Light/Nick weapons versus a what a 3rd level Monk can do. Ok....seems more evenly powerful now, doesn't it!
A Monk 2/Fighter 1 with Nick Mastery can:
Attack action
Attack with a Nick weapon using the monk martial arts die instead of the normal damage.
Attack with a Light weapon using the monk martial arts die instead of the normal damage.
Whichever attack was the extra attack from the Light property does not add the normal attribute modifier to damage unless you take the Two-weapon Fighting Fighting Style..
Bonus Action
Make an unarmed attack
Optionally make a second unarmed attack by spending 1 Focus Point.
That's 3 to 4 attacks at character level 3.
The Fighter level is just a quick way to access Weapon Mastery. You can achieve the same thing by taking Weapon Master at level 4.
At Monk 17+, that's 3 1d12 damage dagger/scimitar attacks per attack action and 3 1d12 unarmed strikes per bonus action. 6 attacks total and probably 6d12 + 25 or +30 (requires Two-weapon Fighting Style) if all attacks hit.
2. Talking about things monks can do, then bringing up what a character who is 50% not monk can do is a pretty disingenuous example. Of course a monk/[anything else] can do different things than a straight monk; that’s the whole point of multiclassing.
My intent was not to compare the multi-class build against a pure Monk, but rather to have the same build perform the two possible sets of actions. I was not clear in my wording.
Look at it this way: you have a multiclassed character. Some of their abilities are about making them better at using weapons. If you choose to forego weapons, they you can expect to be less effective.
This isn't a problem with monk's unarmed abilities -- it's that monk and fighter don't actually have particularly good synergy in multiclassing. They overlap too much.
As a DM, I would rule that the Monk 2/Fighter 1 would only get two attacks in the second example. The PC only gets to use the Nick Mastery property when they use their Fighter ability to do so. The second example, the Monk is not using the benefit of the Fighter dual class. But if you have a dual class Monk who is not going to not use the Fighter combat ability....and just use unarmed attacks...why take Fighter dual class anyway. I think the real comparison should be what a (Monk 2/Fighter 1) can do while wielding two Light/Nick weapons versus a what a 3rd level Monk can do. Ok....seems more evenly powerful now, doesn't it!
A Monk 2/Fighter 1 with Nick Mastery can:
Attack action
Attack with a Nick weapon using the monk martial arts die instead of the normal damage.
Attack with a Light weapon using the monk martial arts die instead of the normal damage.
Whichever attack was the extra attack from the Light property does not add the normal attribute modifier to damage unless you take the Two-weapon Fighting Fighting Style..
Bonus Action
Make an unarmed attack
Optionally make a second unarmed attack by spending 1 Focus Point.
That's 3 to 4 attacks at character level 3. [...]
In ultra‑technical mode:
Bonus Action
Make one unarmed attack using Martial Arts (Bonus Unarmed Strike. You can make an Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action.)
Or, alternatively: Flurry of Blows. You can expend 1 Focus Point to make two Unarmed Strikes as a Bonus Action.
No one is saying that an Unarmed Strike is an attack with a Monk weapon. What is being said is that an Unarmed Strike doesn't have to be a punch, so you don't need a free hand to make one. Emphasis below is mine:
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.
Oh, totally. For some reason I forgot about kicking xD ... Thanks for pointing it out.
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No one is saying that an Unarmed Strike is an attack with a Monk weapon. What is being said is that an Unarmed Strike doesn't have to be a punch, so you don't need a free hand to make one. Emphasis below is mine:
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
I think without AoO like 3e for unarmed strikes realistically they can't especially in 2024 allow it to be a light weapon. It would effectively be a free push/grapple every round for everyone who isn't using both hands, the punch part is not as relevant as if my warlock gets a free punch in it is still hitting for 0. But even with a crap save if you got the bonus action you just do it, which then needs to be resolved which then slows down play. That being said I wish they had at least made it finesse or made it a sneak attack exception as sucker punches, spy neck snaps etc are ingrained in the entertainment we consume that shapes what we want to see and play in the games.
I guess I shouldn't mention one-handed weapon juggling... Okay, I won't.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I think the difference is if unarmed was light it would be a bonus attack, and lots of people have free bonus actions. If you weapon juggle you are using your multiple attacks. Unless we are talking two weapon style, which at least needs a light weapon for the off hand juggle.
As a DM, I would rule that the Monk 2/Fighter 1 would only get two attacks in the second example. The PC only gets to use the Nick Mastery property when they use their Fighter ability to do so. The second example, the Monk is not using the benefit of the Fighter dual class. But if you have a dual class Monk who is not going to not use the Fighter combat ability....and just use unarmed attacks...why take Fighter dual class anyway. I think the real comparison should be what a (Monk 2/Fighter 1) can do while wielding two Light/Nick weapons versus a what a 3rd level Monk can do. Ok....seems more evenly powerful now, doesn't it!
Technically, if unarmed was Light, it might not do anything because it is still not a weapon. If an unarmed strike is never a weapon, could you ever meet the requirements to attack with a different weapon? It definitely could not be used as the Bonus Attack because it is not a weapon so would always have to be an attack as part of an Attack action in order to do anything. Either way, for most characters, that would be 1 damage plus strength modifier on a hit, right? Fairly paltry.
Also, you can weapon juggle more efficiently with thrown weapons and doesn't need a feat investment.
A Monk 2/Fighter 1 with Nick Mastery can:
That's 3 to 4 attacks at character level 3.
The Fighter level is just a quick way to access Weapon Mastery. You can achieve the same thing by taking Weapon Master at level 4.
At Monk 17+, that's 3 1d12 damage dagger/scimitar attacks per attack action and 3 1d12 unarmed strikes per bonus action. 6 attacks total and probably 6d12 + 25 or +30 (requires Two-weapon Fighting Style) if all attacks hit.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Look at it this way: you have a multiclassed character. Some of their abilities are about making them better at using weapons. If you choose to forego weapons, they you can expect to be less effective.
This isn't a problem with monk's unarmed abilities -- it's that monk and fighter don't actually have particularly good synergy in multiclassing. They overlap too much.
In ultra‑technical mode:
Bonus Action
Oh, totally. For some reason I forgot about kicking xD ... Thanks for pointing it out.