I don't find the argument that light has a restriction of working with a light weapon persuasive. War magic replaces an attack, I don't think it cares which one. I think you need to be capable of making said attack in order to generate it so you can't have just one weapon, or non light weapons but once the extra attack is generated replacing it is no different than replacing any other attacks. It is an attack, you can replace it.
This is one of many things that's not defined in the rules, and it's an area with very few examples and rulings to work from.
There are reasonable arguments either way. In the end, it's your DM's call, and there's no official support to back your case with.
I don't find the argument that light has a restriction of working with a light weapon persuasive. War magic replaces an attack, I don't think it cares which one. I think you need to be capable of making said attack in order to generate it so you can't have just one weapon, or non light weapons but once the extra attack is generated replacing it is no different than replacing any other attacks. It is an attack, you can replace it.
This is one of many things that's not defined in the rules, and it's an area with very few examples and rulings to work from.
There are reasonable arguments either way. In the end, it's your DM's call, and there's no official support to back your case with.
Agreed. Its not explicit either way. I'll roll with allowing it with any attack if it comes up in my games.
Because any attack you make cannot be replaced by a casting, basically as a L7 Eldritch Knight when you take the Attack action and attack with a Light weapon, your remaining options are this point are;
Attack with a Weapon/Unarmed Strike OR Replace the attack with the casting of a Wizard cantrip. [Extra Attack]
Attack with a different Light weapon as a Bonus Action, or as part of the Attack Action with Nick Mastery. [Light Property]
Because any attack you make cannot be replaced by a casting, basically as a L7 Eldritch Knight when you take the Attack action and attack with a Light weapon, your remaining options are this point are;
Attack with a Weapon/Unarmed Strike OR Replace the attack with the casting of a Wizard cantrip. [Extra Attack]
Attack with a different Light weapon as a Bonus Action, or as part of the Attack Action with Nick Mastery. [Light Property]
plague, please stop stating your personal interpretation of the rules as definitive, proven fact. It's neither RAW, nor has any clear support as RAI
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plague, please stop stating your personal interpretation of the rules as definitive, proven fact. It's neither RAW, nor has any clear support as RAI
Anton, please stop telling people how to post you're not a mod. People are more than free to disagree with my assertions and have different interpretations of the same rules as written.
The difference of interpretation seem to lie on the application of Nick Mastery.
My reading of the rules is that the extra attack of the Light Property is a Bonus Action until when you make it, then you can make it as part of the Attack Action instead of a Bonus Action. I really think it's intended that way too, so that it's an attack you happen to make with the right item and timing.
The difference of interpretation seem to lie on the application of Nick Mastery.
My reading of the rules is that the extra attack of the Light Property is a Bonus Action until when you make it, then you can make it as part of the Attack Action instead of a Bonus Action. I really think it's intended that way too, so that it's an attack you happen to make with the right item and timing.
Except we're not talking about the extra Bonus Action attack of the Light property. We're talking about the extra Attack Action attack of the Nick weapon mastery
You seem to view Nick as something that starts out as a Bonus Action, then once you meet the requirements for Nick, it gets shifted to the Attack action. As I think jl8e said earlier in this thread, that's your mental model of how those properties work
My mental model is that Nick is an upgraded version of a Light attack, in the same way that Graze provides an upgraded version of an attack that can still deal damage on a miss. At no point is a Nick attack a Bonus Action attack; if you have triggered your ability to make a Nick attack, it gets added to the attacks you can make on your Attack action. You are not required to make that attack, of course, any more than you're required to make a second attack with Extra Attack even if your first blow downs the final enemy in the fight. You simply have enough skill that you have an extra chance to do damage during your turn
Eldritch Knights have special training that allows them to cast cantrips in lieu of those extra chances to do damage during their turn
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My mental model is that Nick is an upgraded version of a Light attack, in the same way that Graze provides an upgraded version of an attack that can still deal damage on a miss. At no point is a Nick attack a Bonus Action attack; if you have triggered your ability to make a Nick attack, it gets added to the attacks you can make on your Attack action. You are not required to make that attack, of course, any more than you're required to make a second attack with Extra Attack even if your first blow downs the final enemy in the fight. You simply have enough skill that you have an extra chance to do damage during your turn.
But the thing is, there's no Nick attack, the Mastery instead modifies the extra attack of the Light Property.
Nor it is absolute, its a choice; When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.
Nothing about Light says the first attack in the in the Attack action has to be with a Light weapon. It definitively says the extra attack as a Bonus Action happens later on the same turn, it does not say immediately. Nick doesn't change that either, it merely says that it happens as part of the Attack action instead of the Bonus Action.
So a level 7 fighter can mix and match which weapons and which order for their attacks (caveat, if you think order matters for Nick, then there is a little constraint there, but not much). As long as both weapons are Light, both weapons are used and at least one of them is a Nick weapon the fighter has Mastery in, all three attack rolls are made as part of the Attack action.
With that in mind, why can't a level 7 EK not exchange one of those attacks for a cantrip? Let's say the EK wants the cantrip to be the 3rd attack. Fine, attack with one light weapon, use the other light weapon along with Nick mastery to have the extra attack in the Attack action and then use the Extra Attack from level 5 and War Magic from level 7 to cast the cantrip.
Light - Nick - Cantrip. Light - Cantrip - Nick. Cantrip - Light - Nick. All should be fine. (using Nick to denote the Bonus action from Light attack being moved to the Attack action per Nick mastery.)
Now throw in DW and attack again with the Bonus Action!
Nothing about Light says the first attack in the in the Attack action has to be with a Light weapon. It definitively says the extra attack as a Bonus Action happens later on the same turn, it does not say immediately. Nick doesn't change that either, it merely says that it happens as part of the Attack action instead of the Bonus Action.
Note that Nick doesn't necessarily change the fact that the Light attack has to be later in the turn. So, the Light attack doesn't have to be the first attack, but it does have to be before the Nick attack.
If you don't have the TWF style, the light attack doesn't get your stat bonus to damage. It could also have been made with a smaller weapon.
Minor concerns, at best, but some people care.
Ahh, I see, they want to use Nick to propagate the cantrip so they can get the stat bonus on both weapon attacks. In which case, yes, I can see why they would worry about it. In that case, I'd agree with those who say no. Light property is an exception to the general rules of Attack and Bonus action. Nick is a direct exception to the Light rule. War Magic would need to explicitly mention Nick to be an exception to the exception of the exception of the general Attack rule. Instead, it's an exception to the general Attack rule itself, not an exception to Nick.
Ahh, I see, they want to use Nick to propagate the cantrip so they can get the stat bonus on both weapon attacks.
We're talking about a level 7-plus EK here. They already get at least two weapon attacks per turn they can get their usual damage bonus on (and in theory, they might have the TWF fighting style to get it on their Light or Nick attacks anyway). It's hardly a big exploit if a cantrip replaces the Nick attack and not one of the others
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ahh, I see, they want to use Nick to propagate the cantrip so they can get the stat bonus on both weapon attacks.
We're talking about a level 7-plus EK here. They already get at least two weapon attacks per turn they can get their usual damage bonus on (and in theory, they might have the TWF fighting style to get it on their Light or Nick attacks anyway). It's hardly a big exploit if a cantrip replaces the Nick attack and not one of the others
Level 7 through 10, without TWF, they'll have one attack with ability mod, one attack without ability mod, and cantrip. With TWF, they'll have two attacks with ability mod and cantrip. If cantrip replaces the Nick attack, they'll have two attacks with ability mod and a cantrip. It effectively gives the EK TWF style for free at level 7. So if they had been TWF style at level 6, they can change it for Defense (or whatever) at level 7 and still effectively keep TWF when they use a cantrip. Granted, if they don't cast a cantrip, their 3rd weapon attack will not have ability mod damage, but that's no different than a different subclass of Fighter that uses two weapons without taking the TWF style. It's not like cantrips are bad. Blade Ward is different, but not bad (2014 version might be too good with 2024 War Magic). Chill Touch is d10 now, still has the no heal effect (tho lost the undead disadvantage) and melee range, making it very nice for EKs. Shocking Grasp did get nerfed a bit from 2014, but still can let you move out of melee range.
At the end of the day, yeah, +5 damage a round (more if Belt of Frost Giant is found and attuned) isn't that much more damage a round. But it's not RAW, and I don't think it's RAI either. If that +5 didn't matter, then why not just let the Light property have the ability mod on the extra attack and drop the TWF style feat from the game?
Ahh, I see, they want to use Nick to propagate the cantrip so they can get the stat bonus on both weapon attacks.
We're talking about a level 7-plus EK here. They already get at least two weapon attacks per turn they can get their usual damage bonus on (and in theory, they might have the TWF fighting style to get it on their Light or Nick attacks anyway). It's hardly a big exploit if a cantrip replaces the Nick attack and not one of the others
Level 7 through 10, without TWF, they'll have one attack with ability mod, one attack without ability mod, and cantrip.
Disagree. With Nick, they get three attack on their Attack action, one of which can be replaced by a cantrip
It effectively gives the EK TWF style for free at level 7.
Not at all. If they make three melee attacks, which in many cases will be their best option for damage, the Nick attack damage would still be dependent on whether they have TWF or not
Granted, if they don't cast a cantrip, their 3rd weapon attack will not have ability mod damage, but that's no different than a different subclass of Fighter that uses two weapons without taking the TWF style.
Right. The difference between subclasses is that EK has the ability to cast a cantrip instead of one of those three attacks, just as a Battle Master would be able to add a maneuver to any of those three attacks. That's what those subclasses are designed to do
It's not like cantrips are bad. Blade Ward is different, but not bad (2014 version might be too good with 2024 War Magic). Chill Touch is d10 now, still has the no heal effect (tho lost the undead disadvantage) and melee range, making it very nice for EKs. Shocking Grasp did get nerfed a bit from 2014, but still can let you move out of melee range.
Which cantrip they want to cast doesn't matter
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I do apologize for not replying yesterday and if I wasn't clear about "replace TWF". Edit: yeah, the cantrips themselves don't matter, other than to say that if the EK has an INT close to STR, they should be casting a melee cantrip each round as that damage scale is nice and the effects can be very helpful!
In next three cases, the Level 7 EK has taken Defense as their fighting style.
If the Level 7 EK goes all weapon attacks, then two weapon attacks with ability mod and one weapon attack without ability mod. (Attack action: Attack, Extra Attack, Nicked Light attack)
If the EK War Magic is not allowed to replace the Nicked extra attack from the Light weapon property in the Attack action, then the Level 7 EK gets to make one weapon attack with ability mod, one weapon attack without ability mod, and cast a cantrip. (Attack action: Attack, Nicked Light attack, Extra Attack as cantrip)
If the EK War Magic is allowed to replace the Nicked extra attack from the Light weapon property in the Attack action, then the Level 7 EK gets to make two weapon attacks with ability mod and cast a cantrip. (Attack action: Attack, Extra Attack, Nicked Light attack as cantrip)
Now, if War Magic is not allowed to replace the Nicked extra attack from the Light weapon property in the Attack action BUT the Level 7 EK takes TWF instead, then they get two weapon attacks with ability mod and cast a cantrip. (Attack action: Attack, Nicked Light attack, Extra Attack as cantrip)
Based on all the above, allowing War Magic to replace the Nicked attack AND casting a cantrip has the EK with Defense fighting style behaving exactly as the EK with TWF style who uses the Level 5 Fighter Extra Attack to cast the cantrip, while having +1 higher AC from Defense style. That is what I meant by effectively replacing TWF, but only in the context of casting a cantrip that replaces the Nicked extra attack from the Light weapon property.
Of course, if you're OK with it at your table, by all means go for it! But it's not RAW and it is giving the EK TWF when (and only when!) War Magic is used to replace the Nicked Light attack with a cantrip.
Quick question. If you allow War Magic to override the Nicked attack does the EK still have to use both weapons? Because without a cantrip they can go Light, Light, other Light as Nicked or Light, other Light, other Light as Nicked. Would they have to go Light, other Light, cantrip as Nicked? Or could they go Light, Light, I was going to use the other Light as Nicked here but I'm casting cantrip instead?
Of course, if you're OK with it at your table, by all means go for it! But it's not RAW and it is giving the EK TWF when (and only when!) War Magic is used to replace the Nicked Light attack with a cantrip.
It's not not RAW, either.
Quick question. If you allow War Magic to override the Nicked attack does the EK still have to use both weapons? Because without a cantrip they can go Light, Light, other Light as Nicked or Light, other Light, other Light as Nicked. Would they have to go Light, other Light, cantrip as Nicked? Or could they go Light, Light, I was going to use the other Light as Nicked here but I'm casting cantrip instead?
The second light weapon must be wielded to make the light extra attack available (I don't think I've seen anyone argue otherwise), but if you're replacing the Light attack, there's no requirement that the second weapon be used to attack.
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This is one of many things that's not defined in the rules, and it's an area with very few examples and rulings to work from.
There are reasonable arguments either way. In the end, it's your DM's call, and there's no official support to back your case with.
Agreed. Its not explicit either way. I'll roll with allowing it with any attack if it comes up in my games.
Because any attack you make cannot be replaced by a casting, basically as a L7 Eldritch Knight when you take the Attack action and attack with a Light weapon, your remaining options are this point are;
plague, please stop stating your personal interpretation of the rules as definitive, proven fact. It's neither RAW, nor has any clear support as RAI
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PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Anton, please stop telling people how to post you're not a mod. People are more than free to disagree with my assertions and have different interpretations of the same rules as written.
The difference of interpretation seem to lie on the application of Nick Mastery.
My reading of the rules is that the extra attack of the Light Property is a Bonus Action until when you make it, then you can make it as part of the Attack Action instead of a Bonus Action. I really think it's intended that way too, so that it's an attack you happen to make with the right item and timing.
Except we're not talking about the extra Bonus Action attack of the Light property. We're talking about the extra Attack Action attack of the Nick weapon mastery
You seem to view Nick as something that starts out as a Bonus Action, then once you meet the requirements for Nick, it gets shifted to the Attack action. As I think jl8e said earlier in this thread, that's your mental model of how those properties work
My mental model is that Nick is an upgraded version of a Light attack, in the same way that Graze provides an upgraded version of an attack that can still deal damage on a miss. At no point is a Nick attack a Bonus Action attack; if you have triggered your ability to make a Nick attack, it gets added to the attacks you can make on your Attack action. You are not required to make that attack, of course, any more than you're required to make a second attack with Extra Attack even if your first blow downs the final enemy in the fight. You simply have enough skill that you have an extra chance to do damage during your turn
Eldritch Knights have special training that allows them to cast cantrips in lieu of those extra chances to do damage during their turn
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
But the thing is, there's no Nick attack, the Mastery instead modifies the extra attack of the Light Property.
Nor it is absolute, its a choice; When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.
Or not if you choose not to.
Once again, Light and Nick causing debate.
But in this case, why even worry about it?
Nothing about Light says the first attack in the in the Attack action has to be with a Light weapon. It definitively says the extra attack as a Bonus Action happens later on the same turn, it does not say immediately. Nick doesn't change that either, it merely says that it happens as part of the Attack action instead of the Bonus Action.
So a level 7 fighter can mix and match which weapons and which order for their attacks (caveat, if you think order matters for Nick, then there is a little constraint there, but not much). As long as both weapons are Light, both weapons are used and at least one of them is a Nick weapon the fighter has Mastery in, all three attack rolls are made as part of the Attack action.
With that in mind, why can't a level 7 EK not exchange one of those attacks for a cantrip? Let's say the EK wants the cantrip to be the 3rd attack. Fine, attack with one light weapon, use the other light weapon along with Nick mastery to have the extra attack in the Attack action and then use the Extra Attack from level 5 and War Magic from level 7 to cast the cantrip.
Light - Nick - Cantrip. Light - Cantrip - Nick. Cantrip - Light - Nick. All should be fine. (using Nick to denote the Bonus action from Light attack being moved to the Attack action per Nick mastery.)
Now throw in DW and attack again with the Bonus Action!
If you don't have the TWF style, the light attack doesn't get your stat bonus to damage. It could also have been made with a smaller weapon.
Minor concerns, at best, but some people care.
Note that Nick doesn't necessarily change the fact that the Light attack has to be later in the turn. So, the Light attack doesn't have to be the first attack, but it does have to be before the Nick attack.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Ahh, I see, they want to use Nick to propagate the cantrip so they can get the stat bonus on both weapon attacks. In which case, yes, I can see why they would worry about it. In that case, I'd agree with those who say no. Light property is an exception to the general rules of Attack and Bonus action. Nick is a direct exception to the Light rule. War Magic would need to explicitly mention Nick to be an exception to the exception of the exception of the general Attack rule. Instead, it's an exception to the general Attack rule itself, not an exception to Nick.
We're talking about a level 7-plus EK here. They already get at least two weapon attacks per turn they can get their usual damage bonus on (and in theory, they might have the TWF fighting style to get it on their Light or Nick attacks anyway). It's hardly a big exploit if a cantrip replaces the Nick attack and not one of the others
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Level 7 through 10, without TWF, they'll have one attack with ability mod, one attack without ability mod, and cantrip. With TWF, they'll have two attacks with ability mod and cantrip. If cantrip replaces the Nick attack, they'll have two attacks with ability mod and a cantrip. It effectively gives the EK TWF style for free at level 7. So if they had been TWF style at level 6, they can change it for Defense (or whatever) at level 7 and still effectively keep TWF when they use a cantrip. Granted, if they don't cast a cantrip, their 3rd weapon attack will not have ability mod damage, but that's no different than a different subclass of Fighter that uses two weapons without taking the TWF style. It's not like cantrips are bad. Blade Ward is different, but not bad (2014 version might be too good with 2024 War Magic). Chill Touch is d10 now, still has the no heal effect (tho lost the undead disadvantage) and melee range, making it very nice for EKs. Shocking Grasp did get nerfed a bit from 2014, but still can let you move out of melee range.
At the end of the day, yeah, +5 damage a round (more if Belt of Frost Giant is found and attuned) isn't that much more damage a round. But it's not RAW, and I don't think it's RAI either. If that +5 didn't matter, then why not just let the Light property have the ability mod on the extra attack and drop the TWF style feat from the game?
Disagree. With Nick, they get three attack on their Attack action, one of which can be replaced by a cantrip
Not at all. If they make three melee attacks, which in many cases will be their best option for damage, the Nick attack damage would still be dependent on whether they have TWF or not
Right. The difference between subclasses is that EK has the ability to cast a cantrip instead of one of those three attacks, just as a Battle Master would be able to add a maneuver to any of those three attacks. That's what those subclasses are designed to do
Which cantrip they want to cast doesn't matter
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I do apologize for not replying yesterday and if I wasn't clear about "replace TWF". Edit: yeah, the cantrips themselves don't matter, other than to say that if the EK has an INT close to STR, they should be casting a melee cantrip each round as that damage scale is nice and the effects can be very helpful!
In next three cases, the Level 7 EK has taken Defense as their fighting style.
If the Level 7 EK goes all weapon attacks, then two weapon attacks with ability mod and one weapon attack without ability mod. (Attack action: Attack, Extra Attack, Nicked Light attack)
If the EK War Magic is not allowed to replace the Nicked extra attack from the Light weapon property in the Attack action, then the Level 7 EK gets to make one weapon attack with ability mod, one weapon attack without ability mod, and cast a cantrip. (Attack action: Attack, Nicked Light attack, Extra Attack as cantrip)
If the EK War Magic is allowed to replace the Nicked extra attack from the Light weapon property in the Attack action, then the Level 7 EK gets to make two weapon attacks with ability mod and cast a cantrip. (Attack action: Attack, Extra Attack, Nicked Light attack as cantrip)
Now, if War Magic is not allowed to replace the Nicked extra attack from the Light weapon property in the Attack action BUT the Level 7 EK takes TWF instead, then they get two weapon attacks with ability mod and cast a cantrip. (Attack action: Attack, Nicked Light attack, Extra Attack as cantrip)
Based on all the above, allowing War Magic to replace the Nicked attack AND casting a cantrip has the EK with Defense fighting style behaving exactly as the EK with TWF style who uses the Level 5 Fighter Extra Attack to cast the cantrip, while having +1 higher AC from Defense style. That is what I meant by effectively replacing TWF, but only in the context of casting a cantrip that replaces the Nicked extra attack from the Light weapon property.
Of course, if you're OK with it at your table, by all means go for it! But it's not RAW and it is giving the EK TWF when (and only when!) War Magic is used to replace the Nicked Light attack with a cantrip.
Quick question. If you allow War Magic to override the Nicked attack does the EK still have to use both weapons? Because without a cantrip they can go Light, Light, other Light as Nicked or Light, other Light, other Light as Nicked. Would they have to go Light, other Light, cantrip as Nicked? Or could they go Light, Light, I was going to use the other Light as Nicked here but I'm casting cantrip instead?
It's not not RAW, either.
The second light weapon must be wielded to make the light extra attack available (I don't think I've seen anyone argue otherwise), but if you're replacing the Light attack, there's no requirement that the second weapon be used to attack.