While theory crafting build concepts with the 2024 rules I came back to the tempest cleric/sorcerer multiclass build and wanted to see what people think about this interaction. How does the Tempest Cleric's channel divinity Destructive Wrath interact with the exploding dice of Sorcerous Burst? Sorcerous Burst can do lightning or thunder damage so it qualifies for Destructive Wrath but how does Destructive Wrath modify it?
Sorcerous Burst says "You cast sorcerous energy at one creature or object within range. Make a ranged attack roll against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 damage of a type you choose: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, Psychic, or Thunder. If you roll an 8 on a d8 for this spell, you can roll another d8, and add it to the damage. When you cast this spell, the maximum number of these d8s you can add to the spell’s damage equals your spellcasting ability modifier. Cantrip Upgrade. The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach levels 5 (2d8), 11 (3d8), and 17 (4d8)."
Destructive Wrath says "Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to wield the power of the storm with unchecked ferocity. When you roll lightning or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling."
I think that Destructive Wrath would automatically make the dice explode for one very important reason. The wording of Destructive Wrath states that when you roll lightning or thunder damage, check, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage instead of rolling. The maximum damage of Sorcerous Burst IS NOT determined by the base cantrip's damage dice but instead by the base cantrip's damage dice plus a number of damage dice equal to your charisma modifier.
There's also the argument that I think is less compelling that by dealing maximum damage you are rolling an 8 so that would cause the dice to explode but there's an assumption there that makes it more dubious.
What do y'all think? How does this interaction play out RAW and RAI?
Another way to put it is that the maximum that you can roll on Sorcerer Burst is 8 x the number of base dice + 8 x a number of dice equal to your charisma modifier.
But then you wouldn't be doing maximum damage like what Destructive Wrath says it does. I'd understand that ruling only if the exploding dice was a separate instance of damage, but it is the same instance of damage. Let's take a level 5 character (2 sorcerer, 3 tempest cleric) that has a charisma of 16. When they hit and roll damage for sorcerous burst the maximum damage they can roll is 40 (2d8 base, 3d8 exploding) why would you not use the actual maximum you can roll if the feature says to?
I'd allow rolling just to follow the spell's mechanics ("If you roll an 8 on a d8 for this spell, you can roll another d8, and add it to the damage."), but the damage each time would be 8, as it's maximized because you're using the Overchannel feature.
I agree with XalthuDestructive Wrath and Sorcerous Burst exploding effect are not compatible because one involve rolling 8 and the other deal 8 instead of rolling.
I think it's worth pointing out here that Sorcerous Burst is a spell that only exists in the 2024 rules, and the Tempest Domain subclass was written for the 2014 rules. So it's clear that whoever wrote the Destructive Wrath feature did not have this interaction in mind, and therefore there is not really a RAI answer to this.
I think if I were DMing I'd be inclined to say that this is one of the old-style subclasses that need a little tweaking to fit well in the 2024 world, and modify Destructive Wrath to say that it only works on Cleric spells and class features, or limit the total number of dice it can maximize, or something like that to tone it down a little.
But then you wouldn't be doing maximum damage like what Destructive Wrath says it does. I'd understand that ruling only if the exploding dice was a separate instance of damage, but it is the same instance of damage. Let's take a level 5 character (2 sorcerer, 3 tempest cleric) that has a charisma of 16. When they hit and roll damage for sorcerous burst the maximum damage they can roll is 40 (2d8 base, 3d8 exploding) why would you not use the actual maximum you can roll if the feature says to?
I understand what you’re saying, but wrath specifically says “instead of rolling” and burst says “when you roll.” Those things can not happen simultaneously. So you take your chances, either a guaranteed 8, or roll and possibly get exploding die.
Agreed with the above; the explicit “instead of rolling” will supersede a “when you roll” effect because it creates an alternate starting state for the damage that precludes the triggering conditions. If it modified the damage dice after a roll the way Empowered Spell or a similar effect does, that would be more ambiguous, although I’d probably still lean towards an alternate damage calculation not qualifying as triggering something that checks what numbers were rolled.
Thanks for the opinions. I agree that this interaction was probably never considered by the devs so there isn't going to be a RAI. The most compelling argument I've heard relies on the line in sorcerous burst saying "If you roll an 8 on a d8 for this spell". This would mean that you have to actually roll. (Also want to point out that by specifying that it has to be a d8 they made it so that if you find a way to get a rider for a d10 or d12 rolling an 8 or above doesn't count.) While destructive wrath clearly states that you do maximum damage instead of rolling. I like the ruling that lets you roll to see if you get any explosive dice while still dealing max damage. That feels like the right solution that allows both the spell and the channel divinity to function. Still a weird interaction from 2014 to 2024.
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While theory crafting build concepts with the 2024 rules I came back to the tempest cleric/sorcerer multiclass build and wanted to see what people think about this interaction. How does the Tempest Cleric's channel divinity Destructive Wrath interact with the exploding dice of Sorcerous Burst? Sorcerous Burst can do lightning or thunder damage so it qualifies for Destructive Wrath but how does Destructive Wrath modify it?
Sorcerous Burst says "You cast sorcerous energy at one creature or object within range. Make a ranged attack roll against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 damage of a type you choose: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, Psychic, or Thunder. If you roll an 8 on a d8 for this spell, you can roll another d8, and add it to the damage. When you cast this spell, the maximum number of these d8s you can add to the spell’s damage equals your spellcasting ability modifier. Cantrip Upgrade. The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach levels 5 (2d8), 11 (3d8), and 17 (4d8)."
Destructive Wrath says "Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to wield the power of the storm with unchecked ferocity. When you roll lightning or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling."
I think that Destructive Wrath would automatically make the dice explode for one very important reason. The wording of Destructive Wrath states that when you roll lightning or thunder damage, check, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage instead of rolling. The maximum damage of Sorcerous Burst IS NOT determined by the base cantrip's damage dice but instead by the base cantrip's damage dice plus a number of damage dice equal to your charisma modifier.
There's also the argument that I think is less compelling that by dealing maximum damage you are rolling an 8 so that would cause the dice to explode but there's an assumption there that makes it more dubious.
What do y'all think? How does this interaction play out RAW and RAI?
Another way to put it is that the maximum that you can roll on Sorcerer Burst is 8 x the number of base dice + 8 x a number of dice equal to your charisma modifier.
I’d rule no. Sorcerous burst works when you roll an 8. Destructive Wrath means you don’t roll. You can’t roll an 8 if you don’t roll.
But then you wouldn't be doing maximum damage like what Destructive Wrath says it does. I'd understand that ruling only if the exploding dice was a separate instance of damage, but it is the same instance of damage. Let's take a level 5 character (2 sorcerer, 3 tempest cleric) that has a charisma of 16. When they hit and roll damage for sorcerous burst the maximum damage they can roll is 40 (2d8 base, 3d8 exploding) why would you not use the actual maximum you can roll if the feature says to?
I've got a different opinion (or way of ruling the interaction), similar to what I mentioned here: Chaos Bolt, Cromatic Orb, And maximum damage feature - Rules & Game Mechanics
I'd allow rolling just to follow the spell's mechanics ("If you roll an 8 on a d8 for this spell, you can roll another d8, and add it to the damage."), but the damage each time would be 8, as it's maximized because you're using the Overchannel feature.
I agree with Xalthu Destructive Wrath and Sorcerous Burst exploding effect are not compatible because one involve rolling 8 and the other deal 8 instead of rolling.
I think it's worth pointing out here that Sorcerous Burst is a spell that only exists in the 2024 rules, and the Tempest Domain subclass was written for the 2014 rules. So it's clear that whoever wrote the Destructive Wrath feature did not have this interaction in mind, and therefore there is not really a RAI answer to this.
I think if I were DMing I'd be inclined to say that this is one of the old-style subclasses that need a little tweaking to fit well in the 2024 world, and modify Destructive Wrath to say that it only works on Cleric spells and class features, or limit the total number of dice it can maximize, or something like that to tone it down a little.
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I understand what you’re saying, but wrath specifically says “instead of rolling” and burst says “when you roll.” Those things can not happen simultaneously.
So you take your chances, either a guaranteed 8, or roll and possibly get exploding die.
Agreed with the above; the explicit “instead of rolling” will supersede a “when you roll” effect because it creates an alternate starting state for the damage that precludes the triggering conditions. If it modified the damage dice after a roll the way Empowered Spell or a similar effect does, that would be more ambiguous, although I’d probably still lean towards an alternate damage calculation not qualifying as triggering something that checks what numbers were rolled.
Thanks for the opinions. I agree that this interaction was probably never considered by the devs so there isn't going to be a RAI. The most compelling argument I've heard relies on the line in sorcerous burst saying "If you roll an 8 on a d8 for this spell". This would mean that you have to actually roll. (Also want to point out that by specifying that it has to be a d8 they made it so that if you find a way to get a rider for a d10 or d12 rolling an 8 or above doesn't count.) While destructive wrath clearly states that you do maximum damage instead of rolling. I like the ruling that lets you roll to see if you get any explosive dice while still dealing max damage. That feels like the right solution that allows both the spell and the channel divinity to function. Still a weird interaction from 2014 to 2024.