Actually reading this thread and thinking about perception vs. Investigation, part of me wants to try a game where all perception checks are passive, and all investigation checks are active- then perception is always about noticing things (not trying to find them) while investigation is about searching for them.
Example: a character wants to eavesdrop a conversation. The check to be made is Perception.
True, it wasn't intended as a RAW usage, just as a way of ensuring they both get used, but eavesdropping would indeed be active
I do not pretend to understand passive vs active possibilities but your idea sounds like the best solution as I have been told a lot of ability checks are useless while some are super important.
From reading this thread it seems to me that a lot of people have failed to grasp the concept of passive perception vs. active perception. Passive perception is used when the PC is not actually trying to find or notice things. The best example of this is if a monster or NPC is trying to avoid detection using its Stealth skill. Then that creature should have to make a skill check using the PC's Passive Perception as the target DC. This should apply to any situation where one character (NPC or PC) is trying to avoid detection of some sort by another character (NPC or PC). Active perception should be used when a character is actively searching for things such as hidden doors, traps, etc. Now since Passive Perception can be heavily modified, as already mentioned several times (I believe the term used is Buff but I am not sure), some DMs choose to counter this by either making the DCs of hidden object ridiculously high or making PCs make active rolls for things that really should be passive checks. Remember active rolls should only be used when the Player states that his character is actively taking an action. Neither of these solutions is ideal and is often taken because DMs don't know how to handle it when PCs can just "do" things. I could get into a long rant about how die rolls should be everyone's least favorite part of the game and should only be used when absolutely necessary but that would cause the last of my hair to turn gray and fall out. My solution, off the top of my head, for those DMs that aren't clever enough to deal with resourceful PCs that invested a talent in a useful ability, and feel the need to make die rolls is make a Stealth roll for the item in question. But I would honestly say if a character invest in Passive Perception then understand that is an advantage that character has, don't penalize him just like you wouldn't penalize a PC who upgraded his AC and bascially the Passive Perception (mechanically speaking) is exactly the same thing. It is merely a mechanic for setting a DC.
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As for me, I choose to believe that an extinct thunder lizard is running a game of Dungeons & Dragons via Twitter!
From what I understood Passive Perception or even Active Perception let you notice that there is something there or off but it required a investigation check to figure out what it is exactly. Also, the biggest mistake I was making at first is not giving the proper negatives. If they are not moving slowly then they get disadvantage or -5 with passive. The same in low light. They also have to have a line of sight to whatever it is. After deploying those rules the really high Wis cleric normally spotted things just as the rogue or fighter right in the middle of it. For traps it required Perception to notice something was off, Investigation to figure it out exactly then a Thieves tools check to disarm/disable it.
We started off my games banning the Perception and luck feats, but i have changed my mind on the Perception ones. The players who are using that feat now does so at the cost of the feats they would normally take.
It's an interesting idea for the skills but they're fundamentally different. In my games, Perception and Intelligence boil down to something like this:
Perception is a skill under Wisdom, and basically means your awareness - actually seeing, hearing and noticing things through physical observation.
Investigation is a skill under Intelligence, used for making sense of things. Using your intellect to put clues together, figure out where something is that you cannot physically see or figure out what that mechanism is meant for.
An example of them working together might be a Perception check to find a few strips of bloody cloth caught on something from the person you're seeking. An Investigation check is then made to figure out which direction the person was running, and what direction they then went. (A Survival check might also work for both of these if outside/in nature, and if there are tracks left, and help them follow the individual even further - and if a prior Investigation check had succeeded in revealing a direction, I would likely give the Survival roll advantage.)
There are other times both can be used to the same end. 'I search for traps' - how? Through visually seeking a sign? Perception. From examining the room's layout and deducing the best place for a trap to be if there was one present? Investigation.
Investigation is, in my opinion, highly underrated.
Passive skills on the other hand are a bit iffy as the PHB lists examples of their use as an 'average' score, but as said several times, it's easily abused to become better than your active rolls. I generally ignore that function, at least for Passive Perception, and just keep it in mind as a rough guide to how generally aware that player's character is at my discretion. Fortunately it does say Passive Checks are their own special Ability Check, and thus you can set the DC number significantly higher than if it was a normal check. This also makes sense, given it's far harder to notice something in general, even if you're very aware, if you're not focused on finding something specific.
Agreed with VillainTheory.Perception and Investigation are almost interchangable for findings traps and secret doors. It may depend on the situation, though, whether one of them is to be excluded.
I dislike this idea that Perception is only "passive". To me Investigation and Perception are really different skills that can often complete the same tasks. Both can find traps, hidden doors, etc... but the description of how is different. There aren't enough skill points in the game to get access to any more then a handful of the 18 skills.
Insight Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms.
Investigation When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
Perception Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.
I rule it such that passive perception is your pre-cognitive brain thinking you've noticed something. You've been alerted, like the '?' over a sentry in a computer game, but to verify, an active perception roll is required - you could prove your gut wrong.
Thus, your high passive perception catches that movement out of the corner of your eye, did the wind gust differently past that part of the wall... the primitive, instinctual part of the mind
Then, your curious mind kicks in and you take a closer look, actively searching, but the movement has passed, the gust has blown and you decide you didn't see anything (fail) or YES, there's a shape behind that bush/ a draft from this part of the wall (success).
Different to 'investigation' which implies you've found something and are now trying to deduce what to do with it/how it works/ where it is from/ how it fits into the scenario/ how to disarm it/ how it's related to the other things you've found in the same room etc.
I see (passive) perception & investigation like wisdom and intelligence. One is instinct, gut, observational where the other is logic and reasoning.
For whatever it's worth, rules authority Jeremy Crawford says in this podcast that primarily stealth and perception are the DM's call, but note that "most of the time, you are opposing your checks to creature's passive perception score" — he says that passive represents your "baseline situational awareness". The basic idea is that to be hidden initially, you make a stealth check as an action, and you are hidden vs. any observers whose passive perception you beat. Then, your stealth roll stays as the DC any active searchers need to beat on future rounds.
It's also worth looking at the section on Noticing Threats in the Adventuring chapter of the PHB. I've often heard ideas similar to:
I see (passive) perception & investigation like wisdom and intelligence. One is instinct, gut, observational where the other is logic and reasoning.
... which makes some sense, but doesn't match the rules-as-written. Specifically, notice that while moving, only the Passive Perception scores of characters who are focused on danger. (Emphisis mine.) In other words, passive checks are only available to those who are actively looking. This seems like an oxymoron, but the key is that the word "passive" here simply means that no active roll of the dice is involved. It doesn't mean that the character is passive.
It's also worth looking at the section on Noticing Threats in the Adventuring chapter of the PHB. I've often heard ideas similar to:
I see (passive) perception & investigation like wisdom and intelligence. One is instinct, gut, observational where the other is logic and reasoning.
... which makes some sense, but doesn't match the rules-as-written. Specifically, notice that while moving, only the Passive Perception scores of characters who are focused on danger. (Emphisis mine.) In other words, passive checks are only available to those who are actively looking. This seems like an oxymoron, but the key is that the word "passive" here simply means that no active roll of the dice is involved. It doesn't mean that the character is passive.
I think the "characters who are focused on danger" means that it would likely be non-combatants who don't really use it. If you are trying to sneak through a busy marketplace, none of the random shoppers are even looking for someone suspicious. While a few guards on duty probably would be on lookout. In that capacity, heros are going to be focused on danger pretty much any time they are being played by the players.
Also when last I commented here I was a bit bothered at the suggestions of "Just break the rules" on a forum dedicated to rules questions. It's fine if that is what the DM wants to do, but that is a homebrew rule. Just like lots of campaigns don't worry about components or keeping up with food. But if you were to ask in a rules forum : Do I really need to have a glowworm or bit of phosphorus to cast dancing lights? The answer is yes, or a spellcasting focus.
Strongly disagree with the posts on combat. Passive perception is the PRIMARY used in combat!
1) Active perception in combat is the "Search" function AND uses your action. My understanding is you use passive perception first! Then, if no one can find the hiding, invisible etc., you have to spend an action to search. This seems consistent with rules, sage advice, tweets, etc. Rules are clear that active search using active perception is always an action and never a free action. If you want to house rule different, that is fine, but I would never do it. Remember, passive is calculated using plus 10. When you give an active roll as a free action, average is 10.5 and half the time they will roll higher than passive. That really sounds worse to me!!!!
2) I agree that passive is a floor also. Players feel totally screwed if an accidental low role means they can't find something that one second before initiative was rolled, they would have a auto discovered.
I have an elf rogue that has a passive perception near 30 at 11th level. We play within the rules as written and it works out.
1) darkvision is -5 to passive perception (disadvantage to active) and the now 24 or 25 passive cannot see anything beyond 60'. I make allowances for sound, but when you apply limits, you can still have things the party has to search for.
2) there are still impossible to detect situations. I had a dragon, at night, laying on the bottom of a pool. Elf was overconfident in approach, but player admitted when we talked after that until the dragon moved, even in daylight, it was virtually impossible to see or hear. 100% cover, no movement, no noise, etc means that even a high passive perception is not omnipotent. Gargoyles and other monsters also meet this. My statement at the table: perception is "do you notice something you can detect?" Can't detect something not there or something that cannot be detected...
3) everything is a trade off... Player spent resources there... Don't penalize, just be happy they did that instead of something that raised their hit or damage.
Finally, there have been a ton of challenging encounters in my campaign that I knew had zero chance of surprising the party, but was designed to not need surprise. It worked fine.
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DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
I think that there are different interpretations of "passive" and "active" floating around this discussion.
From my reading, it is the PLAYER who is either "passive" or "active" in terms of having to roll dice and NOT the character who is passive or active. A passive check is one for which the player does not need to roll. The character might be actively searching, watching, investigating, researching, reading, picking a lock or performing any other action ... but the situation could require a passive and not active skill check.
Here is the rule in the players handbook (p175).
"PASSIVE CHECKS A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."
A passive check represents an activity taken by the character where an average result could or should be used either because it is a repetitive action (e.g. an action where there is no time pressure and the character could look as long as they like) or a situation where the DM would prefer not to roll dice. This might occur for repeated actions like searching ... if the DC is less than the character's passive perception and they are actively looking then they find/notice whatever is to be found.
The example on trap finding in the Lost Mines of Phandelver adventure uses exactly this approach (p7).
"Snare. About 10 minutes after heading down the trail, a party on the path encounters a hidden snare. If the characters are searching for traps, the character in the lead spots the trap automatically if his or her passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 12 or higher. Otherwise, the character must succeed on a DC 12 Wisdom (Perception) check to notice the trap."
In this case the character is actively watching while their passive perception score is used to find the trap. As mentioned earlier in the thread this is consistent with Jeremy Crawford's podcast in which he mentions treating the passive perception value as a floor result.
The PHB also explicitly mentions the use of passive perception to oppose stealth checks in combat.
In addition, the use of passive checks is not limited to perception. The Observant feat specifically mentions a bonus to passive Investigation, maybe to cover the case where folks like to use investigation checks rather than perception ones to find traps or hidden doors. Passive investigation could also apply when investigating or searching a room when there is no time limit or pressure. If you spend long enough searching you will likely find anything that could be found by your average investigation result which is what the passive number represents (rounded down since the average roll is 10.5).
If the DC for a task is below the passive value for a skill and there are no time constraints or other factors that would limit the number of times the task could be attempted then the character should be able to automatically succeed at that task.
For example, if there is a DC 10 lock then a thief, proficient in thieves tools, with a +3 modifier in dex will have a passive lockpick of 15 and should be able to open it given enough time. If the DC was over 15 then a roll would be required and if they don't succeed then they don't open the lock. On the other hand, if the character is trying to pick the lock while in combat, while a trap is going off, when a guard is patrolling or some other circumstance that will limit the number of attempts then the thief would have to roll and if they don't succeed then they can't complete the task at that time.
At the DMs discretion, this applies to all skills. If a character is looking for information in books in a library on a particular historical event and they are proficient in that skill and the DC is less than their passive value then they will eventually find what they are looking for since it is less than their average result. On the other hand, the barbarian with 10 intelligence lacking the requisite skill will likely need to roll unless the task is easy. :)
Anyway, that is my interpretation of the meaning of "passive" and "active" supported by a few quotes. There are lots of other examples in the players hand book and other source materials (though the usage can be a bit inconsistent in modules since I think some of the writers have similarly different ideas about what "passive" and "active" mean in this context). However, the players handbook is very clear ... a passive check is when the PLAYER does not roll dice and ACTIVE check is when the player does roll ... and neither has anything to do with whether the character is being passive or active. (In fact, in the example from the Lost Mines of Phandelver, the passive check is used when the character is actively looking while the active check is used when the character is passively watching).
P.S. I'd also agree with the folks who suggest not coming up with ways to beat players with high passive perception or investigation. The only real way to get there is to take a feat which means sacrificing an ASI or another feat which can offer far more in the way of damage/attacks/flexibility (polearm master/shield master/sentinel etc). Being able to see things better just helps mitigate surprise (also explicitly countered by Alert) and find clues and traps in an adventure. Personally, it seems like more of a role playing choice rather than a power gaming one and a few tweaks to the adventure will make it fun for both the perceptive player and everyone else without trying to change things up to essentially make the feat or high perception/investigation useless.
I think that there are different interpretations of "passive" and "active" floating around this discussion.
From my reading, it is the PLAYER who is either "passive" or "active" in terms of having to roll dice and NOT the character who is passive or active. A passive check is one for which the player does not need to roll. The character might be actively searching, watching, investigating, researching, reading, picking a lock or performing any other action ... but the situation could require a passive and not active skill check.
Yes, absolutely, and it's really unfortunate as if one (particularly, the DM) doesn't read the rules closely, it's easy to say "oh, the plain-language obvious interpretation is that this is your result when your character is being passive — like, when you're not paying attention".
But all that said, it is a bit weird for perception to have a floor, when other ability checks do not. Maybe perception (like initiative) should have been separated from the skill system.
I think that there are different interpretations of "passive" and "active" floating around this discussion.
From my reading, it is the PLAYER who is either "passive" or "active" in terms of having to roll dice and NOT the character who is passive or active. A passive check is one for which the player does not need to roll. The character might be actively searching, watching, investigating, researching, reading, picking a lock or performing any other action ... but the situation could require a passive and not active skill check.
Yes, absolutely, and it's really unfortunate as if one (particularly, the DM) doesn't read the rules closely, it's easy to say "oh, the plain-language obvious interpretation is that this is your result when your character is being passive — like, when you're not paying attention".
But all that said, it is a bit weird for perception to have a floor, when other ability checks do not. Maybe perception (like initiative) should have been separated from the skill system.
One of the points I was trying to make is that I think every skill DOES have a floor under the appropriate circumstances.
The passive number represents the floor when the character has sufficient time to perform the task or could attempt the task more than once or the DM just doesn't want to roll dice. Most of the time, when a character attempts to complete a task, I think the DM should check the passive value first, unless there is a circumstance that would prevent the character from trying again. If the DC is above the passive value then they need to roll an active check but otherwise by checking the passive you know that they will succeed at the task in an average length of time.
I think there are a number of examples that work ... where the passive should be the floor for completing a task.
picking locks .. if a character is proficient then they should eventually be able to open a lock whose DC is less than their passive thieves tools skill
open a stuck door .. if the character is proficient in athletics and the DC is less than their passive strength(athletics) they hound eventually be able to force it open.
Searching through documents or books for information on a particular topic ... nature/history/religion/arcana .. I think the research DC should always check the passive value first since it reflects the average result of their work. Only if the required DC is above the passive skill level or if there is a circumstance preventing the investment of time required then an active roll is made.
Lots of other examples ...
The point is that the skills of the character are a part of their capability ... requiring a dice roll to succeed at a task they are specialized in should only require a roll if the task is above average difficulty for that character. This is especially irritating to characters in a party when the proficient character rolls poorly and a non-proficient character doesn't. E.g. A knowledge arcana check with a DC of 12 where the 16 int wizard with a +5 and passive arcana of 15 rolls a 2 and the barbarian with 8 int with a -1 and passive arcana of 9 rolls a 15. As far as I am concerned, as long as the wizard was looking in the right place or doing what was required, the DM should just tell them what was found .. the players should never know that if a different character was performing the task a dice roll would have been required.
I also think that a circumstance that apples a +/-5 to a passive check should also allow for Advantage/Disadvatage on an active check. However, as far as the rules go I think it only says the reverse .. Advantage/Disadvantage can be interpreted as +/-5 for a passive check.
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I do not pretend to understand passive vs active possibilities but your idea sounds like the best solution as I have been told a lot of ability checks are useless while some are super important.
From reading this thread it seems to me that a lot of people have failed to grasp the concept of passive perception vs. active perception. Passive perception is used when the PC is not actually trying to find or notice things. The best example of this is if a monster or NPC is trying to avoid detection using its Stealth skill. Then that creature should have to make a skill check using the PC's Passive Perception as the target DC. This should apply to any situation where one character (NPC or PC) is trying to avoid detection of some sort by another character (NPC or PC). Active perception should be used when a character is actively searching for things such as hidden doors, traps, etc. Now since Passive Perception can be heavily modified, as already mentioned several times (I believe the term used is Buff but I am not sure), some DMs choose to counter this by either making the DCs of hidden object ridiculously high or making PCs make active rolls for things that really should be passive checks. Remember active rolls should only be used when the Player states that his character is actively taking an action. Neither of these solutions is ideal and is often taken because DMs don't know how to handle it when PCs can just "do" things. I could get into a long rant about how die rolls should be everyone's least favorite part of the game and should only be used when absolutely necessary but that would cause the last of my hair to turn gray and fall out. My solution, off the top of my head, for those DMs that aren't clever enough to deal with resourceful PCs that invested a talent in a useful ability, and feel the need to make die rolls is make a Stealth roll for the item in question. But I would honestly say if a character invest in Passive Perception then understand that is an advantage that character has, don't penalize him just like you wouldn't penalize a PC who upgraded his AC and bascially the Passive Perception (mechanically speaking) is exactly the same thing. It is merely a mechanic for setting a DC.
As for me, I choose to believe that an extinct thunder lizard is running a game of Dungeons & Dragons via Twitter!
From what I understood Passive Perception or even Active Perception let you notice that there is something there or off but it required a investigation check to figure out what it is exactly. Also, the biggest mistake I was making at first is not giving the proper negatives. If they are not moving slowly then they get disadvantage or -5 with passive. The same in low light. They also have to have a line of sight to whatever it is. After deploying those rules the really high Wis cleric normally spotted things just as the rogue or fighter right in the middle of it. For traps it required Perception to notice something was off, Investigation to figure it out exactly then a Thieves tools check to disarm/disable it.
We started off my games banning the Perception and luck feats, but i have changed my mind on the Perception ones. The players who are using that feat now does so at the cost of the feats they would normally take.
K Ray
It's an interesting idea for the skills but they're fundamentally different. In my games, Perception and Intelligence boil down to something like this:
Perception is a skill under Wisdom, and basically means your awareness - actually seeing, hearing and noticing things through physical observation.
Investigation is a skill under Intelligence, used for making sense of things. Using your intellect to put clues together, figure out where something is that you cannot physically see or figure out what that mechanism is meant for.
An example of them working together might be a Perception check to find a few strips of bloody cloth caught on something from the person you're seeking. An Investigation check is then made to figure out which direction the person was running, and what direction they then went. (A Survival check might also work for both of these if outside/in nature, and if there are tracks left, and help them follow the individual even further - and if a prior Investigation check had succeeded in revealing a direction, I would likely give the Survival roll advantage.)
There are other times both can be used to the same end. 'I search for traps' - how? Through visually seeking a sign? Perception. From examining the room's layout and deducing the best place for a trap to be if there was one present? Investigation.
Investigation is, in my opinion, highly underrated.
Passive skills on the other hand are a bit iffy as the PHB lists examples of their use as an 'average' score, but as said several times, it's easily abused to become better than your active rolls. I generally ignore that function, at least for Passive Perception, and just keep it in mind as a rough guide to how generally aware that player's character is at my discretion. Fortunately it does say Passive Checks are their own special Ability Check, and thus you can set the DC number significantly higher than if it was a normal check. This also makes sense, given it's far harder to notice something in general, even if you're very aware, if you're not focused on finding something specific.
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Most of my interpretation comes from the Unearthed Arcane they did of Traps.
Agreed with VillainTheory. Perception and Investigation are almost interchangable for findings traps and secret doors. It may depend on the situation, though, whether one of them is to be excluded.
I dislike this idea that Perception is only "passive". To me Investigation and Perception are really different skills that can often complete the same tasks. Both can find traps, hidden doors, etc... but the description of how is different. There aren't enough skill points in the game to get access to any more then a handful of the 18 skills.
Insight
Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms.
Investigation
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
Perception
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.
I rule it such that passive perception is your pre-cognitive brain thinking you've noticed something. You've been alerted, like the '?' over a sentry in a computer game, but to verify, an active perception roll is required - you could prove your gut wrong.
Thus, your high passive perception catches that movement out of the corner of your eye, did the wind gust differently past that part of the wall... the primitive, instinctual part of the mind
Then, your curious mind kicks in and you take a closer look, actively searching, but the movement has passed, the gust has blown and you decide you didn't see anything (fail) or YES, there's a shape behind that bush/ a draft from this part of the wall (success).
Different to 'investigation' which implies you've found something and are now trying to deduce what to do with it/how it works/ where it is from/ how it fits into the scenario/ how to disarm it/ how it's related to the other things you've found in the same room etc.
I see (passive) perception & investigation like wisdom and intelligence. One is instinct, gut, observational where the other is logic and reasoning.
(this post wasn't meant to be this long!!!!)
For whatever it's worth, rules authority Jeremy Crawford says in this podcast that primarily stealth and perception are the DM's call, but note that "most of the time, you are opposing your checks to creature's passive perception score" — he says that passive represents your "baseline situational awareness". The basic idea is that to be hidden initially, you make a stealth check as an action, and you are hidden vs. any observers whose passive perception you beat. Then, your stealth roll stays as the DC any active searchers need to beat on future rounds.
Listen starting at about 15:09.
It's also worth looking at the section on Noticing Threats in the Adventuring chapter of the PHB. I've often heard ideas similar to:
... which makes some sense, but doesn't match the rules-as-written. Specifically, notice that while moving, only the Passive Perception scores of characters who are focused on danger. (Emphisis mine.) In other words, passive checks are only available to those who are actively looking. This seems like an oxymoron, but the key is that the word "passive" here simply means that no active roll of the dice is involved. It doesn't mean that the character is passive.
Yeah — the section specifically says that if you are navigating, mapping, tracking, or foraging, you aren't on the lookout.
I think we are in agreement — usually, passive perception is always on.
Reading the Podcast he mentions you can't roll lower then your Passive Perception. That makes the Observant feat REALLY nice for Druid/Clerics.
I disagree with Jeremy Crawford on a lot, but that I like.
Strongly disagree with the posts on combat. Passive perception is the PRIMARY used in combat!
1) Active perception in combat is the "Search" function AND uses your action. My understanding is you use passive perception first! Then, if no one can find the hiding, invisible etc., you have to spend an action to search. This seems consistent with rules, sage advice, tweets, etc. Rules are clear that active search using active perception is always an action and never a free action. If you want to house rule different, that is fine, but I would never do it. Remember, passive is calculated using plus 10. When you give an active roll as a free action, average is 10.5 and half the time they will roll higher than passive. That really sounds worse to me!!!!
2) I agree that passive is a floor also. Players feel totally screwed if an accidental low role means they can't find something that one second before initiative was rolled, they would have a auto discovered.
I have an elf rogue that has a passive perception near 30 at 11th level. We play within the rules as written and it works out.
1) darkvision is -5 to passive perception (disadvantage to active) and the now 24 or 25 passive cannot see anything beyond 60'. I make allowances for sound, but when you apply limits, you can still have things the party has to search for.
2) there are still impossible to detect situations. I had a dragon, at night, laying on the bottom of a pool. Elf was overconfident in approach, but player admitted when we talked after that until the dragon moved, even in daylight, it was virtually impossible to see or hear. 100% cover, no movement, no noise, etc means that even a high passive perception is not omnipotent. Gargoyles and other monsters also meet this. My statement at the table: perception is "do you notice something you can detect?" Can't detect something not there or something that cannot be detected...
3) everything is a trade off... Player spent resources there... Don't penalize, just be happy they did that instead of something that raised their hit or damage.
Finally, there have been a ton of challenging encounters in my campaign that I knew had zero chance of surprising the party, but was designed to not need surprise. It worked fine.
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
I think that there are different interpretations of "passive" and "active" floating around this discussion.
From my reading, it is the PLAYER who is either "passive" or "active" in terms of having to roll dice and NOT the character who is passive or active. A passive check is one for which the player does not need to roll. The character might be actively searching, watching, investigating, researching, reading, picking a lock or performing any other action ... but the situation could require a passive and not active skill check.
Here is the rule in the players handbook (p175).
"PASSIVE CHECKS
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."
A passive check represents an activity taken by the character where an average result could or should be used either because it is a repetitive action (e.g. an action where there is no time pressure and the character could look as long as they like) or a situation where the DM would prefer not to roll dice. This might occur for repeated actions like searching ... if the DC is less than the character's passive perception and they are actively looking then they find/notice whatever is to be found.
The example on trap finding in the Lost Mines of Phandelver adventure uses exactly this approach (p7).
"Snare. About 10 minutes after heading down the trail, a party on the path encounters a hidden snare. If the characters are searching for traps, the character in the lead spots the trap automatically if his or her passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 12 or higher. Otherwise, the character must succeed on a DC 12 Wisdom (Perception) check to notice the trap."
In this case the character is actively watching while their passive perception score is used to find the trap. As mentioned earlier in the thread this is consistent with Jeremy Crawford's podcast in which he mentions treating the passive perception value as a floor result.
The PHB also explicitly mentions the use of passive perception to oppose stealth checks in combat.
In addition, the use of passive checks is not limited to perception. The Observant feat specifically mentions a bonus to passive Investigation, maybe to cover the case where folks like to use investigation checks rather than perception ones to find traps or hidden doors. Passive investigation could also apply when investigating or searching a room when there is no time limit or pressure. If you spend long enough searching you will likely find anything that could be found by your average investigation result which is what the passive number represents (rounded down since the average roll is 10.5).
If the DC for a task is below the passive value for a skill and there are no time constraints or other factors that would limit the number of times the task could be attempted then the character should be able to automatically succeed at that task.
For example, if there is a DC 10 lock then a thief, proficient in thieves tools, with a +3 modifier in dex will have a passive lockpick of 15 and should be able to open it given enough time. If the DC was over 15 then a roll would be required and if they don't succeed then they don't open the lock. On the other hand, if the character is trying to pick the lock while in combat, while a trap is going off, when a guard is patrolling or some other circumstance that will limit the number of attempts then the thief would have to roll and if they don't succeed then they can't complete the task at that time.
At the DMs discretion, this applies to all skills. If a character is looking for information in books in a library on a particular historical event and they are proficient in that skill and the DC is less than their passive value then they will eventually find what they are looking for since it is less than their average result. On the other hand, the barbarian with 10 intelligence lacking the requisite skill will likely need to roll unless the task is easy. :)
Anyway, that is my interpretation of the meaning of "passive" and "active" supported by a few quotes. There are lots of other examples in the players hand book and other source materials (though the usage can be a bit inconsistent in modules since I think some of the writers have similarly different ideas about what "passive" and "active" mean in this context). However, the players handbook is very clear ... a passive check is when the PLAYER does not roll dice and ACTIVE check is when the player does roll ... and neither has anything to do with whether the character is being passive or active. (In fact, in the example from the Lost Mines of Phandelver, the passive check is used when the character is actively looking while the active check is used when the character is passively watching).
P.S. I'd also agree with the folks who suggest not coming up with ways to beat players with high passive perception or investigation. The only real way to get there is to take a feat which means sacrificing an ASI or another feat which can offer far more in the way of damage/attacks/flexibility (polearm master/shield master/sentinel etc). Being able to see things better just helps mitigate surprise (also explicitly countered by Alert) and find clues and traps in an adventure. Personally, it seems like more of a role playing choice rather than a power gaming one and a few tweaks to the adventure will make it fun for both the perceptive player and everyone else without trying to change things up to essentially make the feat or high perception/investigation useless.