It's interesting to me reading some folks say they personally won't allow stacking the Magic Items from the OP or other combinations, even if they work RAW. There are already easy ways in the game to get a similar result. For example, a classic way of stacking with a +X weapon is the Level 3: Sacred Weapon feature.
I have already stated that I am making a Balance and RAI argument, not a RAW one.
It's interesting to me reading some folks say they personally won't allow stacking the Magic Items from the OP or other combinations, even if they work RAW. There are already easy ways in the game to get a similar result. For example, a classic way of stacking with a +X weapon is the Level 3: Sacred Weapon feature.
I think it's more about bounded accuracy, also the Eldritch Claw Tattoo is an attunement, no other class needs to attune for a simple +1. Sure the claw has a once per long rest BA but mostly it's there for the unarmed +1. I think it's fair to say that it's not a great way for balancing Monk against other classes, meanwhile Wraps of Unarmed Power scale the same way as a normal +1, +2 or +3 weapon and don't need attunement.
So either
A) you allow both and your monk now has +1 attack/damage over any other character which is a little broken considered bounded accuracy. Or
B) you limit Wraps of Unarmed Power so that the monk only gets the +1 & +2 version at later levels, meaning you're just punishing the monk by forcing them to have to get the Eldritch claw tattoo to match other martials.
Either way it's not great. I'd say just offer the Wraps of Unarmed Power and never the Eldritch Claw tattoo, it keeps everything in bounded accuracy and you never need to worry about about the balance implications of Monk vs. other classes, More so in 2024 where it's possible to get monk builds that do 6 attacks per round, tho that does involve some weapon usage...
It's interesting to me reading some folks say they personally won't allow stacking the Magic Items from the OP or other combinations, even if they work RAW. There are already easy ways in the game to get a similar result. For example, a classic way of stacking with a +X weapon is the Level 3: Sacred Weapon feature.
I think it's more about bounded accuracy, also the Eldritch Claw Tattoo is an attunement, no other class needs to attune for a simple +1. Sure the claw has a once per long rest BA but mostly it's there for the unarmed +1. I think it's fair to say that it's not a great way for balancing Monk against other classes, meanwhile Wraps of Unarmed Power scale the same way as a normal +1, +2 or +3 weapon and don't need attunement.
So either
A) you allow both and your monk now has +1 attack/damage over any other character which is a little broken considered bounded accuracy. Or
B) you limit Wraps of Unarmed Power so that the monk only gets the +1 & +2 version at later levels, meaning you're just punishing the monk by forcing them to have to get the Eldritch claw tattoo to match other martials.
Either way it's not great. I'd say just offer the Wraps of Unarmed Power and never the Eldritch Claw tattoo, it keeps everything in bounded accuracy and you never need to worry about about the balance implications of Monk vs. other classes, More so in 2024 where it's possible to get monk builds that do 6 attacks per round, tho that does involve some weapon usage...
I wouldn't say B is punishing the monk. A Wood Elf in Medium Armor isn't punished when using Boots of Striding and Springing for having too high of a movement; they just get less of a bonus from it, but still benefit from the jumping ability.
It's two items that have some overlap, with each other and the class. There's the matter of the +1 to hit and damage for the uncommon version, but also choosing to deal force damage overlaps with the Monk's Empowered Strikes at Level 6, making them redundant with the tattoo. However, when you get the +2 and +3 versions, the Wraps are no longer completely redundant any more.
In addition, a monk may not be the only one that will want these items and any decision you make for a Monk would apply to them as well. An unarmed focused Fighter or College of Dance Bard would both benefit from both items and don't have class features that overlap with them. I haven't calculated the DPR effects of a Bard with Conjure Minor Elementals or a Fighter with Action Surge (Maybe Rune Knight Fighter?), but I imagine the potential would be quite impactful.
We've been having a discussion based in DPR, the only one shifting the metric is you. A high AC is easily rendered mostly irrelevant by targeting a different character. It is possible that the entire party is high AC, but in that case, you probably aren't that optimized towards DPR. Let me ask you this, would you allow a +3 Wand of the War Mage to stack with a +3 Bloodwell Vial to give a Sorcerer +6 to spell attack rolls and save DCs? There is a similar combo for all spellcasting classes.
We've been having a discussion about whether or not allowing them to stack is unbalanced or overpowered not whether it increases DPR. That's not in contention, it does increase DPR but that is not overpowered or unbalanced. Trying to shift my position from "this increase in DPR is not that big and thus this is not balance breaking" to "there is no increase in DPR" is arguing in bad faith. Both combos should work, why shouldn't they? If the DM gives you these items or allows you to craft them there is no reason they shouldn't work as the game was written and intended. For a DM to give them to you and say that they don't work as the game is designed and intended is messed up unless it was talked about beforehand. That's exactly what happened to the OP. Besides hit chance isn't really a broken stacking option because a 1 fails on all attacks. There's a hard cap at 95% accuracy without advantage. Saving throw stacking is significantly more problematic since a 20 doesn't automatically succeed. It's way more balance breaking to combine the Tasha's spellcasting foci with the robe of the archmagi.
Let's say, for example, you're a sneaky Bugbear and managed to activate Eldritch Claw without being noticed and then manage a full round of attacks with a full flurry. We'll go ahead and continue the level 8 monk example from my previous post. We're still assuming Eldritch Claw Tattoo with + 1 Wraps. Let's have someone cast Enlarge/Reduce and we recently drank a [Tooltip Not Found]. The point isn't sustained DPR through the day, but to show the magnifying effect of the extra +1.
On a hit, with no other effects, 1d8 + 1d6 (Maul) + 1d6 (Pugilism) + 2d6 (Bugbear) + 1d4 (Enlarged) + 5 + bonus damage on round 1.
On a hit, with no other effects, 1d8 + 1d6 (Maul) + 1d6 (Pugilism) + 1d4 (Enlarged) + 5 + bonus damage on round 2-9. (No more Bugbear bonus)
On a hit, with no other effects, 1d8 + 1d6 (Pugilism) + 2d6 (Bugbear) + 1d4 (Enlarged) + 5 + bonus damage on round 10. (Eldritch Claw wore off)
Rounds 9 and 10 would be 2 attacks each (no more focus points).
CR 8 Encounter would be AC 16.
Assuming both stack, that's a 75% chance to hit and damage will be 1d8 + 1d6 +1d6 + 2d6 +1d4 + 7 damage (average 28 damage per hit first round).
Round 1, 88.2 Damage per round. (With Advantage, it becomes 113.19 and Disadvantage becomes 63.21; these are for reference and not used for calculations.*)
Rounds 2-8, 65.8 Damage per round. (With Advantage, it becomes 84.21 and Disadvantage becomes 47.39; these are for reference and not used for calculations.*)
Round 9, 32.9 Damage per round.
Round 10, 27.3 Damager per round.
609 Damager per minute or an average 60.9 damager per round.
Assuming only the highest, that's a 70% chance to hit and damage will be 1d8 + 1d6 +1d6 + 2d6 +1d4 + 6 damage (average 27 damage per hit first round).
Round 1, 79.8 Damage per round. (With Advantage, it becomes 106.47 and Disadvantage becomes 53.13; these are for reference and not used for calculations.*)
Rounds 2-8, 58.8 Damage per round. (With Advantage, it becomes 78.26 and Disadvantage becomes 39.34; these are for reference and not used for calculations.*)
Round 9, 29.4 Damage per round.
Round 10, 24.15 Damager per round.
544.95 Damager per minute or an average 54.5 damager per round.
That's a big difference, particularly that first round. Sure, it's an extreme scenario, but the bigger the average damage, from whatever source, the more the effect that extra +1 will have. +2 to Hit and Damage is a the purview of a Rare Magic Item and you shouldn't be able to trivialize it with an Uncommon Magic Item exploit.
So, beyond that. If you allow it to stack, Eldritch Claw and +3 Wraps of Unarmed Power would be a +4 bonus to attacks and damage. Is there another way to get +4 to melee or ranged attacks?
According to your own math with you trying your hardest to exploit this combo your DPR increase is less than 10 for roughly a 12-13% DPR increase. That really isn't that powerful. You claim it is, but it really isn't when you compare other options to increase your DPR. By your own calculations getting advantage increases your DPR by 20-33%. Should you ban the ability to get advantage because RAW it increases your DPR too much? Of course not, that's just absurd. That is a part of the game design just like items that give a flat bonus stacking. Though if you're looking to ban things that are overpowered and increase DPR too much you should start with advantage and not this paltry side case.
So, beyond that. If you allow it to stack, Eldritch Claw and +3 Wraps of Unarmed Power would be a +4 bonus to attacks and damage. Is there another way to get +4 to melee or ranged attacks?
Of course. The Oath of devotion paladin can do significantly better than that. With Sacred Weapon you can get upwards of a +13 to hit over what you would normally get with a magic weapon. +0 from charisma (to 30 with manuals) and 3 from a +3 weapon. There are plenty of feats to increase the damage past +4 that unarmed strikes are not compatible with. With a ranged attack it's even easier to match your "overpowered" bonus. Just take the archery fighting style feat and you can match it with a +2 weapon and the bracers of archery. If a +4 is the most you can potentially exploit from this and for unarmed strikes that don't really get many magic items to buff them then you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
It's interesting to me reading some folks say they personally won't allow stacking the Magic Items from the OP or other combinations, even if they work RAW. There are already easy ways in the game to get a similar result.
Which are equally problematic; bounded accuracy doesn't work if accuracy isn't actually bounded. If bounded accuracy is supposed to work, they should really puts severe limits on stacking -- say, you get to add one magic item and one power bonus (spell, class feature, etc; expertise counts). This still allows reasonably reliable DC 30 checks (20 stat, +6 proficiency bonus, expertise or a d12 or something, advantage, is enough to hit DC 30 more than half the time). You probably would need to allow an additional bonus on AC, because it doesn't normally have proficiency scaling.
Bounded accuracy is in place as a principle for the game design. That items and abilities can stack does NOT break this. It's 100% up to DMs to set ground rules with players and only give items they're comfortable giving out.
Exactly this. I'd also add that accuracy on attack rolls does have a hard cap, so it is bounded regardless of your bonus. A nat 1 is a miss regardless of your bonus.
It's interesting to me reading some folks say they personally won't allow stacking the Magic Items from the OP or other combinations, even if they work RAW. There are already easy ways in the game to get a similar result. For example, a classic way of stacking with a +X weapon is the Level 3: Sacred Weapon feature.
I have already stated that I am making a Balance and RAI argument, not a RAW one.
Your RAI argument has been to try to use the stacking spell effects rule and completely ignore the wearing items rule OP posted in the first post and the sage advice that Tarodnet posted in post 43. The intent and rules are clear that they stack. We've discussed the balance argument and even with your own numbers it isn't that significant of an increase to unbalance the game.
I have both on my monk, they absolutely stack. Like mentioned they are not worn on the same body part. Like both being capes or bracers. Rings are the one slot that can have multiple but not the same function (ie ring of protection).
Nothing to stop all the benefits from stacking on a player at all.
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I have already stated that I am making a Balance and RAI argument, not a RAW one.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I think it's more about bounded accuracy, also the Eldritch Claw Tattoo is an attunement, no other class needs to attune for a simple +1. Sure the claw has a once per long rest BA but mostly it's there for the unarmed +1. I think it's fair to say that it's not a great way for balancing Monk against other classes, meanwhile Wraps of Unarmed Power scale the same way as a normal +1, +2 or +3 weapon and don't need attunement.
So either
A) you allow both and your monk now has +1 attack/damage over any other character which is a little broken considered bounded accuracy. Or
B) you limit Wraps of Unarmed Power so that the monk only gets the +1 & +2 version at later levels, meaning you're just punishing the monk by forcing them to have to get the Eldritch claw tattoo to match other martials.
Either way it's not great. I'd say just offer the Wraps of Unarmed Power and never the Eldritch Claw tattoo, it keeps everything in bounded accuracy and you never need to worry about about the balance implications of Monk vs. other classes, More so in 2024 where it's possible to get monk builds that do 6 attacks per round, tho that does involve some weapon usage...
I wouldn't say B is punishing the monk. A Wood Elf in Medium Armor isn't punished when using Boots of Striding and Springing for having too high of a movement; they just get less of a bonus from it, but still benefit from the jumping ability.
It's two items that have some overlap, with each other and the class. There's the matter of the +1 to hit and damage for the uncommon version, but also choosing to deal force damage overlaps with the Monk's Empowered Strikes at Level 6, making them redundant with the tattoo. However, when you get the +2 and +3 versions, the Wraps are no longer completely redundant any more.
In addition, a monk may not be the only one that will want these items and any decision you make for a Monk would apply to them as well. An unarmed focused Fighter or College of Dance Bard would both benefit from both items and don't have class features that overlap with them. I haven't calculated the DPR effects of a Bard with Conjure Minor Elementals or a Fighter with Action Surge (Maybe Rune Knight Fighter?), but I imagine the potential would be quite impactful.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
We've been having a discussion about whether or not allowing them to stack is unbalanced or overpowered not whether it increases DPR. That's not in contention, it does increase DPR but that is not overpowered or unbalanced. Trying to shift my position from "this increase in DPR is not that big and thus this is not balance breaking" to "there is no increase in DPR" is arguing in bad faith. Both combos should work, why shouldn't they? If the DM gives you these items or allows you to craft them there is no reason they shouldn't work as the game was written and intended. For a DM to give them to you and say that they don't work as the game is designed and intended is messed up unless it was talked about beforehand. That's exactly what happened to the OP. Besides hit chance isn't really a broken stacking option because a 1 fails on all attacks. There's a hard cap at 95% accuracy without advantage. Saving throw stacking is significantly more problematic since a 20 doesn't automatically succeed. It's way more balance breaking to combine the Tasha's spellcasting foci with the robe of the archmagi.
According to your own math with you trying your hardest to exploit this combo your DPR increase is less than 10 for roughly a 12-13% DPR increase. That really isn't that powerful. You claim it is, but it really isn't when you compare other options to increase your DPR. By your own calculations getting advantage increases your DPR by 20-33%. Should you ban the ability to get advantage because RAW it increases your DPR too much? Of course not, that's just absurd. That is a part of the game design just like items that give a flat bonus stacking. Though if you're looking to ban things that are overpowered and increase DPR too much you should start with advantage and not this paltry side case.
Of course. The Oath of devotion paladin can do significantly better than that. With Sacred Weapon you can get upwards of a +13 to hit over what you would normally get with a magic weapon. +0 from charisma (to 30 with manuals) and 3 from a +3 weapon. There are plenty of feats to increase the damage past +4 that unarmed strikes are not compatible with. With a ranged attack it's even easier to match your "overpowered" bonus. Just take the archery fighting style feat and you can match it with a +2 weapon and the bracers of archery. If a +4 is the most you can potentially exploit from this and for unarmed strikes that don't really get many magic items to buff them then you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Exactly this. I'd also add that accuracy on attack rolls does have a hard cap, so it is bounded regardless of your bonus. A nat 1 is a miss regardless of your bonus.
Your RAI argument has been to try to use the stacking spell effects rule and completely ignore the wearing items rule OP posted in the first post and the sage advice that Tarodnet posted in post 43. The intent and rules are clear that they stack. We've discussed the balance argument and even with your own numbers it isn't that significant of an increase to unbalance the game.
I have both on my monk, they absolutely stack. Like mentioned they are not worn on the same body part. Like both being capes or bracers. Rings are the one slot that can have multiple but not the same function (ie ring of protection).
Nothing to stop all the benefits from stacking on a player at all.