I've been persuaded that it stacks RAW. But that it does create a balance problem to allow it, ranged ammo is a consumable and there aren't any other weapon bonuses that stack as far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong).
It came up in my game because its a high magic setting with magic items for sale. I purchased an Eldritch Claw Tattoo, maybe the DM forgot and included the wraps in a loot dump and mentioned that they were in there to me when we were discussing loot distribution. She ruled they wouldn't stack and I'm fine with that, it was my gut feeling that they shouldn't because it felt OP.
I've been persuaded that it stacks RAW. But that it does create a balance problem to allow it, ranged ammo is a consumable and there aren't any other weapon bonuses that stack as far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong).
It came up in my game because its a high magic setting with magic items for sale. I purchased an Eldritch Claw Tattoo, maybe the DM forgot and included the wraps in a loot dump and mentioned that they were in there to me when we were discussing loot distribution. She ruled they wouldn't stack and I'm fine with that, it was my gut feeling that they shouldn't because it felt OP.
It doesn't really create a balance problem. If you give a player a belt of giant strength its bonus stacks with a weapon bonus. One extra to attack and damage only amounts to a .75 dpr boost for each attack with the Eldritch maul active. It's .58 without Eldritch maul. Even with a level 10 monk making 5 attacks that's only a 3.75 with Eldritch maul/ 2.88 without DPR boost. You can get a better level of DPR boost by being a Goliath and adding fire's burn once a turn if you're only making 1 attack. The dpr increase for the Goliath is higher the more attacks you make. That's hardly balance changing.
Edit: My math is off. I was doing it quick and dirty, but I went more in depth and corrected it in post 31. It still isn't a huge DPR boost.
Even if you consider them stacking to be op what about stacking armor bonuses. Is it a balance problem for +1 plate, a +1 shield, and a cloak of protection to stack for an AC of 23?
The interaction works RAW and is hardly balance shifting. I'd show your DM the math and rules and see if they'll reverse their decision. Often DMs are worried about power creep and reflexively say no but this is hardly that.
The effects of different spells add together while their durations overlap. In contrast, the effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap. The most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap. For example, if two Clerics cast Bless on the same target, that target gains the spell’s benefit only once; the target doesn’t receive two bonus dice. But if the durations of the spells overlap, the effect continues until the duration of the second Bless ends.
I am going to say the same principle applies here even if it is not a spell per se. In addition, there's Multiple Items of the Same Kind.
You can’t wear more than one of certain magic items. You can’t normally wear more than one pair of footwear, one pair of gloves or gauntlets, one pair of bracers, one suit of armor, one item of headwear, or one cloak. The DM might make exceptions.
These are not items that are both worn on the hands, but there are items that make your unarmed attacks +1 magic attacks.
Remember that there are +3 Wraps of Power which would give you +4 to attack and damage if you allowed this combo to stack. +2 to attacks and damage for any weapon or spell requires a Rare item and an uncommon items, or even two uncommon items, shouldn't invalidate that.
In effect, using both items (one requiring attunement, the other not), you get:
+1 to attacks and damage (highest modifier from both items)
You can always choose to deal the normal or force damage. (+1 Wraps of Unarmed Power)
Eldritch Maul effect once per day. (Eldritch Claw Tattoo)
Since the Wraps do not require attunement, they might prevent the use of gloves, but otherwise don't restrict magic item use.
This is a balance and RAI argument, not a strict RAW argument.
But giving both and then not allowing them to work RAW leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
This right here. It feels like the act of a DM who is more interested in being in control than in everyone having fun.
I'm not sure one person being overpowered is in the interests of everyone having fun. It is best not to give people problem items in the first place, but sometimes a DM makes a mistake and they didn't realize how much item X would throw off the game. It is not controlling to try and resolve that with the best interests of everyone at the table instead of just one player.
Your solution to messing up as a DM is to sandbag the player? Can you think of no better solution?
The effects of different spells add together while their durations overlap. In contrast, the effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap. The most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap. For example, if two Clerics cast Bless on the same target, that target gains the spell’s benefit only once; the target doesn’t receive two bonus dice. But if the durations of the spells overlap, the effect continues until the duration of the second Bless ends.
I am going to say the same principle applies here even if it is not a spell per se. In addition, there's Multiple Items of the Same Kind.
You can’t wear more than one of certain magic items. You can’t normally wear more than one pair of footwear, one pair of gloves or gauntlets, one pair of bracers, one suit of armor, one item of headwear, or one cloak. The DM might make exceptions.
These are not items that are both worn on the hands, but there are items that make your unarmed attacks +1 magic attacks.
Remember that there are +3 Wraps of Power which would give you +4 to attack and damage if you allowed this combo to stack. +2 to attacks and damage for any weapon or spell requires a Rare item and an uncommon items, or even two uncommon items, shouldn't invalidate that.
In effect, using both items (one requiring attunement, the other not), you get:
+1 to attacks and damage (highest modifier from both items)
You can always choose to deal the normal or force damage. (+1 Wraps of Unarmed Power)
Eldritch Maul effect once per day. (Eldritch Claw Tattoo)
Since the Wraps do not require attunement, they might prevent the use of gloves, but otherwise don't restrict magic item use.
This is a balance and RAI argument, not a strict RAW argument.
So you would rule that the AC boost of +1 armor, a +1 shield, and a cloak of protection don't stack? Also read my post above that the damage increase really isn't significant and therefore doesn't require rebalancing. There's so few magic items geared towards monks it's silly to go against raw to nerf the interaction.
Even if you consider them stacking to be op what about stacking armor bonuses. Is it a balance problem for +1 plate, a +1 shield, and a cloak of protection to stack for an AC of 23?
A high AC doesn't contribute to ending an encounter faster, it just feeds the tank fallacy. Enemies will just be encouraged to attack your allies, negating the benefit of a high AC. A high bonus to attack and damage increases not only the damage from the base damage bonus, it also increases the DPR of every rider effect because of the increased chance to hit. Without a magical bonus to hit, you are assumed to have a 65% chance to hit. With a +2 to hit, that becomes 75%. Every additional die or flat bonus to damage on a hit becomes more effective and contributes more to DPR because of the extra bonus.
Let's look at level 8 monk with just the Eldritch Claw activated, let's assume a +5 attribute modifier and we won't worry about subclasses.
On a hit, with no other effects, 1d8 + 1d6 + 5 + bonus damage.
First round and round 10, 2 attacks per round.
Rounds 2-9, 4 attacks per round (flurry each round).
Assuming both stack, that's a 75% chance to hit and damage will be 1d8 + 1d6 + 7 damage (average 15 damage per hit).
Rounds 1 and 10, 24 Damage per round.
Rounds 2-8, 48 Damager per round.
432 Damager per minute or an average 43.2 damager per round.
Assuming only the highest, that's a 75% chance to hit and damage will be 1d8 + 1d6 + 7 damage (average 15 damage per hit).
Rounds 1 and 10, 21 Damage per round.
Rounds 2-8, 42 Damager per round.
378 Damager per minute or an average 37.8 damager per round.
I didn't create a spreadsheet for this and used a different DPR calculator than normal, but it I think it still illustrates that the effect is being underestimated.
It doesn't really create a balance problem. If you give a player a belt of giant strength its bonus stacks with a weapon bonus. One extra to attack and damage only amounts to a .75 dpr boost for each attack with the Eldritch maul active.
.75 DPR is the boost from the extra +1 alone. +1 damage times 75% chance to hit = .75 DPR. The base average damage (not including the extra +1) times the extra 5% to hit is added to the extra DPR per attack.
It's a 1.5 DPR boost per attack with a 1D8 + 1d6 + 5 (Attribute) +1 (Wraps) + 1 (Claw). Adding any effects that increases the base damage (such as the damage die increasing or Conjure Minor Elementals from being a Bard of the College of Dance instead of a Monk) will scale the effect of the DPR Boost accordingly. In addition, it diminishes the impact of Disadvantage and, after a point, advantage may become mostly fishing for criticals.
So you would rule that the AC boost of +1 armor, a +1 shield, and a cloak of protection don't stack? Also read my post above that the damage increase really isn't that significant.
Your math was incorrect.
In addition, and increases to the number of attacks, unsurprisingly, increases the impact of the DPR boost.
But giving both and then not allowing them to work RAW leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
This right here. It feels like the act of a DM who is more interested in being in control than in everyone having fun.
I'm not sure one person being overpowered is in the interests of everyone having fun. It is best not to give people problem items in the first place, but sometimes a DM makes a mistake and they didn't realize how much item X would throw off the game. It is not controlling to try and resolve that with the best interests of everyone at the table instead of just one player.
Letting those items stack is not overpowered. Here's the math at level 5 on the DPR for each attack assuming .6 hit chance before bonuses.
Both items with maul: .7[hit chance](4.5 [monk d8] + 3.5 [Eldritch maul] + 6) + .05 (4.5 + 3.5) = 10.2 DPR for 1 attack
Both items without maul: .7(4.5 + 6) + .05 (4.5) = 7.575 DPR for 1 attack
Unarmed wraps or tattoo without maul: 65(4.5 + 5) + .05 (4.5) = 6.4 DPR for 1 attack
The difference in DPR if you let them stack is 1.175 without maul and 1.35 with maul per attack. That's not to mention the cost of using a bonus action to activate maul which is huge for monks. The total DPR with both assuming flurry of blows and maul set up is 40.8 and 30.3 without maul. It's 35.4 and 25.6 with just the tattoo.
That difference is almost the same as a Goliath using fire's burn once per turn when factoring in hit chance. The effective DPR increase of adding 1d10 on a hit once per turn is not overpowered at all. I highly doubt anyone at the table would even notice a difference.
So you would rule that the AC boost of +1 armor, a +1 shield, and a cloak of protection don't stack? Also read my post above that the damage increase really isn't that significant.
Your math was incorrect.
In addition, and increases to the number of attacks, unsurprisingly, increases the impact of the DPR boost.
I corrected the math in a following post. My point still stands it's roughly the same as adding a d10 once a turn on a hit, that isn't overpowered.
Even if you consider them stacking to be op what about stacking armor bonuses. Is it a balance problem for +1 plate, a +1 shield, and a cloak of protection to stack for an AC of 23?
A high AC doesn't contribute to ending an encounter faster, it just feeds the tank fallacy. Enemies will just be encouraged to attack your allies, negating the benefit of a high AC. A high bonus to attack and damage increases not only the damage from the base damage bonus, it also increases the DPR of every rider effect because of the increased chance to hit. Without a magical bonus to hit, you are assumed to have a 65% chance to hit. With a +2 to hit, that becomes 75%. Every additional die or flat bonus to damage on a hit becomes more effective and contributes more to DPR because of the extra bonus.
High AC does contribute to ending an encounter faster, you can't deal damage if you're down. Even more so it contributes significantly more to completing an encounter, if all your enemy does is take the attack action but they can't hit you outside of a 20 then you will win. Regardless, that isn't what is at question here. The question is whether allowing them both to stack is overpowered, not whether it contributes to ending an encounter faster or safer. Don't shift the metric to try to disprove a counterpoint.
Your numbers in post 30 are incorrect even with your assumptions. Using your calculations the DPR for each attack with both is 11.65, not 12. The DPR for each attack with just the tattoo is 10.2 not 10.5. That is not a huge, overpowered difference even using your numbers.
In regard to your other argument about other riders, monks don't really get any additional riders other than hand of harm or the elemental epitome's empowered strikes at level 17. Even a dance bard using this isn't that overpowered because they only get one or two attacks with additional riders for only roughly 5% of the damage of those riders as a DPR increase. It's good but it just is not overpowered.
It's even less overpowered for the OP since they said that their character is an unarmed fighter. For them the DPR increase is going to only be less since they're taking one less attack and will likely have a lower damage die. Without crunching more numbers the dpr increase at 5-10 is probably only around 2.5 and at level 11 it's probably 3.75. I would argue that the DM really messed up by nerfing this interaction since an unarmed fighter is far from optimized.
In general +1 items that require attunement stacking isn't much of an issue, but when you get into +2 and +3 you start really breaking bounded accuracy. Bounded accuracy really needs hard limits on stacking to work.
Even if you consider them stacking to be op what about stacking armor bonuses. Is it a balance problem for +1 plate, a +1 shield, and a cloak of protection to stack for an AC of 23?
A high AC doesn't contribute to ending an encounter faster, it just feeds the tank fallacy. Enemies will just be encouraged to attack your allies, negating the benefit of a high AC. A high bonus to attack and damage increases not only the damage from the base damage bonus, it also increases the DPR of every rider effect because of the increased chance to hit. Without a magical bonus to hit, you are assumed to have a 65% chance to hit. With a +2 to hit, that becomes 75%. Every additional die or flat bonus to damage on a hit becomes more effective and contributes more to DPR because of the extra bonus.
High AC does contribute to ending an encounter faster, you can't deal damage if you're down. Even more so it contributes significantly more to completing an encounter, if all your enemy does is take the attack action but they can't hit you outside of a 20 then you will win. Regardless, that isn't what is at question here. The question is whether allowing them both to stack is overpowered, not whether it contributes to ending an encounter faster or safer. Don't shift the metric to try to disprove a counterpoint.
Your numbers in post 30 are incorrect even with your assumptions. Using your calculations the DPR for each attack with both is 11.65, not 12. The DPR for each attack with just the tattoo is 10.2 not 10.5. That is not a huge, overpowered difference even using your numbers.
In regard to your other argument about other riders, monks don't really get any additional riders other than hand of harm or the elemental epitome's empowered strikes at level 17. Even a dance bard using this isn't that overpowered because they only get one or two attacks with additional riders for only roughly 5% of the damage of those riders as a DPR increase. It's good but it just is not overpowered.
It's even less overpowered for the OP since they said that their character is an unarmed fighter. For them the DPR increase is going to only be less since they're taking one less attack and will likely have a lower damage die. Without crunching more numbers the dpr increase at 5-10 is probably only around 2.5 and at level 11 it's probably 3.75. I would argue that the DM really messed up by nerfing this interaction since an unarmed fighter is far from optimized.
If it interests you, my build right now is 3 berserker barbarian/1 fighter. I'll be going to barb 5, then battlemaster fighter 4 the barb the rest of the way. I have the unarmed fighting style and don't use a shield for a d8 damage die. Also tavern brawler for rerolling 1s and 2d6 damage once per round with berserker.
If it interests you, my build right now is 3 berserker barbarian/1 fighter. I'll be going to barb 5, then battlemaster fighter 4 the barb the rest of the way. I have the unarmed fighting style and don't use a shield for a d8 damage die. Also tavern brawler for rerolling 1s and 2d6 damage once per round with berserker.
That sounds like a ridiculous and fun build. It really isn't going to be overpowered to let them both work RAW. I would gladly do more in depth math if you want to make a case with your DM, but here's some preliminary thoughts. With advantage from reckless attack both items stacking increases your hit chance by 3.25% assuming a base chance of .6 and 2.75% with a base chance of .65. That's barely anything. If you took the average damage on hit and multiply by that hit chance increase you'll see the damage per attack increase and it's not huge at all.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I've been persuaded that it stacks RAW. But that it does create a balance problem to allow it, ranged ammo is a consumable and there aren't any other weapon bonuses that stack as far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong).
It came up in my game because its a high magic setting with magic items for sale. I purchased an Eldritch Claw Tattoo, maybe the DM forgot and included the wraps in a loot dump and mentioned that they were in there to me when we were discussing loot distribution. She ruled they wouldn't stack and I'm fine with that, it was my gut feeling that they shouldn't because it felt OP.
It doesn't really create a balance problem. If you give a player a belt of giant strength its bonus stacks with a weapon bonus. One extra to attack and damage only amounts to a .75 dpr boost for each attack with the Eldritch maul active. It's .58 without Eldritch maul. Even with a level 10 monk making 5 attacks that's only a 3.75 with Eldritch maul/ 2.88 without DPR boost. You can get a better level of DPR boost by being a Goliath and adding fire's burn once a turn if you're only making 1 attack. The dpr increase for the Goliath is higher the more attacks you make. That's hardly balance changing.
Edit: My math is off. I was doing it quick and dirty, but I went more in depth and corrected it in post 31. It still isn't a huge DPR boost.
Even if you consider them stacking to be op what about stacking armor bonuses. Is it a balance problem for +1 plate, a +1 shield, and a cloak of protection to stack for an AC of 23?
The interaction works RAW and is hardly balance shifting. I'd show your DM the math and rules and see if they'll reverse their decision. Often DMs are worried about power creep and reflexively say no but this is hardly that.
I am going to say the same principle applies here even if it is not a spell per se. In addition, there's Multiple Items of the Same Kind.
These are not items that are both worn on the hands, but there are items that make your unarmed attacks +1 magic attacks.
Remember that there are +3 Wraps of Power which would give you +4 to attack and damage if you allowed this combo to stack. +2 to attacks and damage for any weapon or spell requires a Rare item and an uncommon items, or even two uncommon items, shouldn't invalidate that.
In effect, using both items (one requiring attunement, the other not), you get:
Since the Wraps do not require attunement, they might prevent the use of gloves, but otherwise don't restrict magic item use.
This is a balance and RAI argument, not a strict RAW argument.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Your solution to messing up as a DM is to sandbag the player? Can you think of no better solution?
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
Check out my life-changing
So you would rule that the AC boost of +1 armor, a +1 shield, and a cloak of protection don't stack? Also read my post above that the damage increase really isn't significant and therefore doesn't require rebalancing. There's so few magic items geared towards monks it's silly to go against raw to nerf the interaction.
A high AC doesn't contribute to ending an encounter faster, it just feeds the tank fallacy. Enemies will just be encouraged to attack your allies, negating the benefit of a high AC. A high bonus to attack and damage increases not only the damage from the base damage bonus, it also increases the DPR of every rider effect because of the increased chance to hit. Without a magical bonus to hit, you are assumed to have a 65% chance to hit. With a +2 to hit, that becomes 75%. Every additional die or flat bonus to damage on a hit becomes more effective and contributes more to DPR because of the extra bonus.
Let's look at level 8 monk with just the Eldritch Claw activated, let's assume a +5 attribute modifier and we won't worry about subclasses.
Assuming both stack, that's a 75% chance to hit and damage will be 1d8 + 1d6 + 7 damage (average 15 damage per hit).
Assuming only the highest, that's a 75% chance to hit and damage will be 1d8 + 1d6 + 7 damage (average 15 damage per hit).
I didn't create a spreadsheet for this and used a different DPR calculator than normal, but it I think it still illustrates that the effect is being underestimated.
.75 DPR is the boost from the extra +1 alone. +1 damage times 75% chance to hit = .75 DPR. The base average damage (not including the extra +1) times the extra 5% to hit is added to the extra DPR per attack.
It's a 1.5 DPR boost per attack with a 1D8 + 1d6 + 5 (Attribute) +1 (Wraps) + 1 (Claw). Adding any effects that increases the base damage (such as the damage die increasing or Conjure Minor Elementals from being a Bard of the College of Dance instead of a Monk) will scale the effect of the DPR Boost accordingly. In addition, it diminishes the impact of Disadvantage and, after a point, advantage may become mostly fishing for criticals.
Your math was incorrect.
In addition, and increases to the number of attacks, unsurprisingly, increases the impact of the DPR boost.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Letting those items stack is not overpowered. Here's the math at level 5 on the DPR for each attack assuming .6 hit chance before bonuses.
Both items with maul: .7[hit chance](4.5 [monk d8] + 3.5 [Eldritch maul] + 6) + .05 (4.5 + 3.5) = 10.2 DPR for 1 attack
Both items without maul: .7(4.5 + 6) + .05 (4.5) = 7.575 DPR for 1 attack
Eldritch claw tattoo with maul: .65(4.5 + 3.5 + 5) + .05 (4.5 + 3.5) = 8.85 DPR for 1 attack
Unarmed wraps or tattoo without maul: 65(4.5 + 5) + .05 (4.5) = 6.4 DPR for 1 attack
The difference in DPR if you let them stack is 1.175 without maul and 1.35 with maul per attack. That's not to mention the cost of using a bonus action to activate maul which is huge for monks. The total DPR with both assuming flurry of blows and maul set up is 40.8 and 30.3 without maul. It's 35.4 and 25.6 with just the tattoo.
That difference is almost the same as a Goliath using fire's burn once per turn when factoring in hit chance. The effective DPR increase of adding 1d10 on a hit once per turn is not overpowered at all. I highly doubt anyone at the table would even notice a difference.
I corrected the math in a following post. My point still stands it's roughly the same as adding a d10 once a turn on a hit, that isn't overpowered.
High AC does contribute to ending an encounter faster, you can't deal damage if you're down. Even more so it contributes significantly more to completing an encounter, if all your enemy does is take the attack action but they can't hit you outside of a 20 then you will win. Regardless, that isn't what is at question here. The question is whether allowing them both to stack is overpowered, not whether it contributes to ending an encounter faster or safer. Don't shift the metric to try to disprove a counterpoint.
Your numbers in post 30 are incorrect even with your assumptions. Using your calculations the DPR for each attack with both is 11.65, not 12. The DPR for each attack with just the tattoo is 10.2 not 10.5. That is not a huge, overpowered difference even using your numbers.
In regard to your other argument about other riders, monks don't really get any additional riders other than hand of harm or the elemental epitome's empowered strikes at level 17. Even a dance bard using this isn't that overpowered because they only get one or two attacks with additional riders for only roughly 5% of the damage of those riders as a DPR increase. It's good but it just is not overpowered.
It's even less overpowered for the OP since they said that their character is an unarmed fighter. For them the DPR increase is going to only be less since they're taking one less attack and will likely have a lower damage die. Without crunching more numbers the dpr increase at 5-10 is probably only around 2.5 and at level 11 it's probably 3.75. I would argue that the DM really messed up by nerfing this interaction since an unarmed fighter is far from optimized.
In general +1 items that require attunement stacking isn't much of an issue, but when you get into +2 and +3 you start really breaking bounded accuracy. Bounded accuracy really needs hard limits on stacking to work.
If it interests you, my build right now is 3 berserker barbarian/1 fighter. I'll be going to barb 5, then battlemaster fighter 4 the barb the rest of the way. I have the unarmed fighting style and don't use a shield for a d8 damage die. Also tavern brawler for rerolling 1s and 2d6 damage once per round with berserker.
That sounds like a ridiculous and fun build. It really isn't going to be overpowered to let them both work RAW. I would gladly do more in depth math if you want to make a case with your DM, but here's some preliminary thoughts. With advantage from reckless attack both items stacking increases your hit chance by 3.25% assuming a base chance of .6 and 2.75% with a base chance of .65. That's barely anything. If you took the average damage on hit and multiply by that hit chance increase you'll see the damage per attack increase and it's not huge at all.