Im playing an Eldritch Knight using the 2024 edition rules and was looking into the War Magic class feature. Looking at as writen it states that a level 7 when take the attack action you can replace one of the attacks with a cantrip that has a casting time of one action. Then at level 18 you get Improved War Magic allowing you to replace two of your attacks with a spell of 1st or 2nd. So I was wondering if a Level 20 Eldritch Knight could, when taking the attack action, cast a spell (1-2 level) then also cast a cantrip sacrificing three attacks and still get off one normal attack with whatever weapon they're welding? Was I understanding that correctly or would you have to choose one or the other when using the War Magic feature.
Yes, you can use both features in the same action. You could on your turn take the Attack action, replace the first two attacks with a leveled spell like Cloud of Daggers, then replace another attack with a cantrip like Booming Blade, then use your last attack to make a regular weapon attack.
I also agree with the above but would note that War Magic is usable once per attack action, meaning when using action surge, you can use it twice. However Improved War Magic would be usable only once per turn due to the one spell slot per turn rule.
I also agree with the above but would note that War Magic is usable once per attack action, meaning when using action surge, you can use it twice. However Improved War Magic would be usable only once per turn due to the one spell slot per turn rule.
What if the person with Improved War Magic has some feature that allows them to cast a level 1 or 2 spell without expending a spell slot (e.g., sorcery points, racial spell casting)?
(Lest you think I am picking on you because of our earlier interactions, I assure you I am not. I am trying to decide how to handle such situations myself).
I also agree with the above but would note that War Magic is usable once per attack action, meaning when using action surge, you can use it twice. However Improved War Magic would be usable only once per turn due to the one spell slot per turn rule.
What if the person with Improved War Magic has some feature that allows them to cast a level 1 or 2 spell without expending a spell slot (e.g., sorcery points, racial spell casting)?
(Lest you think I am picking on you because of our earlier interactions, I assure you I am not. I am trying to decide how to handle such situations myself).
If there were such a feature then it'd be usable in this way but I don't think there would be any that you can get with 18 levels of fighters being a requirement for improved war magic and it being limited to Wizard Spells, I guess somebody might argue using Magic Initiative (Wizard) but I do not believe spells acquired in that way would count as Wizard spells persay.
(and don't worry about things from other threads, I don't hold em personally, I also am to blame for it anyway, partly to do with stress from other areas of my life).
I also agree with the above but would note that War Magic is usable once per attack action, meaning when using action surge, you can use it twice. However Improved War Magic would be usable only once per turn due to the one spell slot per turn rule.
What if the person with Improved War Magic has some feature that allows them to cast a level 1 or 2 spell without expending a spell slot (e.g., sorcery points, racial spell casting)?
(Lest you think I am picking on you because of our earlier interactions, I assure you I am not. I am trying to decide how to handle such situations myself).
If there were such a feature then it'd be usable in this way but I don't think there would be any that you can get with 18 levels of fighters being a requirement for improved war magic and it being limited to Wizard Spells, I guess somebody might argue using Magic Initiative (Wizard) but I do not believe spells acquired in that way would count as Wizard spells persay.
(and don't worry about things from other threads, I don't hold em personally, I also am to blame for it anyway, partly to do with stress from other areas of my life).
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
I also agree with the above but would note that War Magic is usable once per attack action, meaning when using action surge, you can use it twice. However Improved War Magic would be usable only once per turn due to the one spell slot per turn rule.
What if the person with Improved War Magic has some feature that allows them to cast a level 1 or 2 spell without expending a spell slot (e.g., sorcery points, racial spell casting)?
(Lest you think I am picking on you because of our earlier interactions, I assure you I am not. I am trying to decide how to handle such situations myself).
If there were such a feature then it'd be usable in this way but I don't think there would be any that you can get with 18 levels of fighters being a requirement for improved war magic and it being limited to Wizard Spells, I guess somebody might argue using Magic Initiative (Wizard) but I do not believe spells acquired in that way would count as Wizard spells persay.
(and don't worry about things from other threads, I don't hold em personally, I also am to blame for it anyway, partly to do with stress from other areas of my life).
I think that actually works
The EK Spellcasting feature doesn't have the same "If another Wizard feature gives you spells that you always have prepared... those spells otherwise count as Wizard spells for you" language that a Wizard's does, for obvious reasons -- they aren't a wizard. The effect of that though, it that whether something "counts as a Wizard spell" is actually irrelevant for them -- to qualify for Improved War Magic, it just has to be on the Wizard spell list
So pretty much any feat that lets you cast a level 1 spell without a spell slot would qualify (Fey Touched etc), so long as the spell in question is on the Wizard spell list. Spells from magic items might work too, unless you want to get into the weeds on whether they actually count as "your" spells
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Well given that, I'd say that feats that give you a relevant spell would work for Improved War Magic to be able to cast 2 levelled spells on the same turn with Action Surge, since you're not violating the 1 spell slot per turn rule.
Well given that, I'd say that feats that give you a relevant spell would work for Improved War Magic to be able to cast 2 levelled spells on the same turn with Action Surge, since you're not violating the 1 spell slot per turn rule.
You actually wouldn't need to use action surge to replace two spells. There is no hard limit on how many times you can use Improved War Magic in a turn (or the same action for that matter), just a soft limit due to the one spell with a spell slot per turn rule. If you did use Action Surge, you could theoretically take the Attack action twice in one turn, replacing all 8 attacks with 4 spells (3 from features with free castings, 1 using a spell slot).
For Example, An Abyssal Tiefling Eldritch Knight with Shadow Touched:
And potentially even more castings with two uses of Action Surge:
Level 2: Action Surge
You can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action, except the Magic action.
Once you use this feature, you can’t do so again until you finish a Short or Long Rest. Starting at level 17, you can use it twice before a rest but only once on a turn.
I also agree with the above but would note that War Magic is usable once per attack action, meaning when using action surge, you can use it twice. However Improved War Magic would be usable only once per turn due to the one spell slot per turn rule.
Normally these sorts of features do not consume spell slots. For example, a Warrior of Shadow Monk can cast Darkness despite the fact that they have no spell slots.
Well given that, I'd say that feats that give you a relevant spell would work for Improved War Magic to be able to cast 2 levelled spells on the same turn with Action Surge, since you're not violating the 1 spell slot per turn rule.
You actually wouldn't need to use action surge to replace two spells. There is no hard limit on how many times you can use Improved War Magic in a turn (or the same action for that matter), just a soft limit due to the one spell with a spell slot per turn rule. If you did use Action Surge, you could theoretically take the Attack action twice in one turn, replacing all 8 attacks with 4 spells (3 from features with free castings, 1 using a spell slot).
Improved War Magic: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace two of the attacks with a casting of one of your level 1 or level 2 Wizard spells that has a casting time of an action."
You can replace two. That's a hard limit on the number of spells per Attack action. War Magic is a hard limit of 1 attack replaced with a Cantrip.
You can do this, and/or War Magic up to, I think, 3 times in one turn (Attack action, Action Surge Attack action, Hasted Attack action) for up to 5 level 1 or level 2 Wizard spells per turn (at least 4 will have to be from scrolls, species features, or other slotless sources) and 2 Cantrips. This assumes that it is preferrable to use a level 1 or 2 spell as opposed to a Cantrip. In addition, the Eldritch Knight would have 2 weapon attacks and a Bonus Action remaining.
Improved War Magic: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace two of the attacks with a casting of one of your level 1 or level 2 Wizard spells that has a casting time of an action."
You can replace two. That's a hard limit on the number of spells per Attack action. War Magic is a hard limit of 1 attack replaced with a Cantrip.
You can do this, and/or War Magic up to, I think, 3 times in one turn (Attack action, Action Surge Attack action, Hasted Attack action)
You only get one attack with a hasted Attack action, so that wouldn't be enough to use Improved War Magic
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Now the question is... what level 1-2 spells are actually better than two attacks from an 18th level fighter?
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It appears that a level 18 EK could spend an attack to cast a cantrip, and two more attacks to cast a spell, in the same attack action. I'm not sure how actually useful that is (improved war magic in general doesn't particularly impress me), but would people agree it's legal?
Sounds valid.
Out of interest, does the restriction to casting Level 1 or 2 spells apply to the slots used? Could the EK use a 3rd level slot as part of Improved War Magic to cast, say, Thunderwave?
Improved War Magic: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace two of the attacks with a casting of one of your level 1 or level 2 Wizard spells that has a casting time of an action."
You can replace two. That's a hard limit on the number of spells per Attack action. War Magic is a hard limit of 1 attack replaced with a Cantrip.
You can do this, and/or War Magic up to, I think, 3 times in one turn (Attack action, Action Surge Attack action, Hasted Attack action)
You only get one attack with a hasted Attack action, so that wouldn't be enough to use Improved War Magic
Oh. You're right! I misread Improved War Magic and that impacts my conclusions as well. Forgive me, I am playing a Rune Knight. :D
The first attack action could be one weapon attack, one cantrip, and one 1st or 2nd level spell. Then, the second attack action could be one weapon attack, one cantrip, and one 1st or 2nd level spell. And the hasted attack could be one cantrip.
Finally, the Eldritch Knight's Reaction and Bonus Action could be used cast spells, for a final potential 7 spells cast in one turn. Only one of those spells can use a spell slot.
As for good candidates? I don't know. It'd be funny to hit someone with Booming Blade, move around a corner, cast Rope Trick, and use your extra action to climb up. A lot of my immediate thoughts are Bonus Actions or Reactions. Blur, if you are getting slapped around too much. See Invisibility to counter an invisible foe without sacrificing all of your attacks. Enlarge can give you a very minor damage boost. Kinetic Jaunt to move an ally away from a threat. Gentle Repose on the body of the party member that just died (oops, but this can probably wait until after combat). Mirror Image.
Now the question is... what level 1-2 spells are actually better than two attacks from an 18th level fighter?
For raw damage, usually none, but occasionally control (e.g. hold person), defense (e.g. blur), or utility (e.g. see invisibility) spells may be worth those two attacks, since otherwise it would be a full action to cast. But yes, it would be a far more interesting feature if it let you cast third level spells.
Now the question is... what level 1-2 spells are actually better than two attacks from an 18th level fighter?
For raw damage, usually none, but occasionally control (e.g. hold person), defense (e.g. blur), or utility (e.g. see invisibility) spells may be worth those two attacks, since otherwise it would be a full action to cast. But yes, it would be a far more interesting feature if it let you cast third level spells.
A level 20 Eldritch Knight with an active Haste cast on the them by someone else could use their first two attacks to cast Hold Person, then dump a total of 7 more attacks with their weapon (2 remaining from their first Attack action, 4 more after using Action Surge, and one from Haste), 3 of which could be Booming Blade attacks, and all of which would have advantage on the attack, and all would be automatically deal critical damage.
Assuming a base Greatsword with Great Weapon Master, if everything hits their damage output in the first round would be 28d6+18d8+77, or ~197.5 damage. If the target remains Paralyzed until the second round, they could unload 9 auto-crit attacks for about 247.5 average damage. Seems like a worth-while strategy to me.
Im playing an Eldritch Knight using the 2024 edition rules and was looking into the War Magic class feature. Looking at as writen it states that a level 7 when take the attack action you can replace one of the attacks with a cantrip that has a casting time of one action. Then at level 18 you get Improved War Magic allowing you to replace two of your attacks with a spell of 1st or 2nd. So I was wondering if a Level 20 Eldritch Knight could, when taking the attack action, cast a spell (1-2 level) then also cast a cantrip sacrificing three attacks and still get off one normal attack with whatever weapon they're welding? Was I understanding that correctly or would you have to choose one or the other when using the War Magic feature.
Yes, you can use both features in the same action. You could on your turn take the Attack action, replace the first two attacks with a leveled spell like Cloud of Daggers, then replace another attack with a cantrip like Booming Blade, then use your last attack to make a regular weapon attack.
That's my reading. Level 18: Improved War Magic is in addition to Level 7: War Magic, not a replacement.
EDIT: ups, ninja'd by Sequilonis!
I also agree with the above but would note that War Magic is usable once per attack action, meaning when using action surge, you can use it twice. However Improved War Magic would be usable only once per turn due to the one spell slot per turn rule.
What if the person with Improved War Magic has some feature that allows them to cast a level 1 or 2 spell without expending a spell slot (e.g., sorcery points, racial spell casting)?
(Lest you think I am picking on you because of our earlier interactions, I assure you I am not. I am trying to decide how to handle such situations myself).
If there were such a feature then it'd be usable in this way but I don't think there would be any that you can get with 18 levels of fighters being a requirement for improved war magic and it being limited to Wizard Spells, I guess somebody might argue using Magic Initiative (Wizard) but I do not believe spells acquired in that way would count as Wizard spells persay.
(and don't worry about things from other threads, I don't hold em personally, I also am to blame for it anyway, partly to do with stress from other areas of my life).
Well...
EDIT: (you're both awesome!)
I think that actually works
The EK Spellcasting feature doesn't have the same "If another Wizard feature gives you spells that you always have prepared... those spells otherwise count as Wizard spells for you" language that a Wizard's does, for obvious reasons -- they aren't a wizard. The effect of that though, it that whether something "counts as a Wizard spell" is actually irrelevant for them -- to qualify for Improved War Magic, it just has to be on the Wizard spell list
So pretty much any feat that lets you cast a level 1 spell without a spell slot would qualify (Fey Touched etc), so long as the spell in question is on the Wizard spell list. Spells from magic items might work too, unless you want to get into the weeds on whether they actually count as "your" spells
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Well given that, I'd say that feats that give you a relevant spell would work for Improved War Magic to be able to cast 2 levelled spells on the same turn with Action Surge, since you're not violating the 1 spell slot per turn rule.
You actually wouldn't need to use action surge to replace two spells. There is no hard limit on how many times you can use Improved War Magic in a turn (or the same action for that matter), just a soft limit due to the one spell with a spell slot per turn rule. If you did use Action Surge, you could theoretically take the Attack action twice in one turn, replacing all 8 attacks with 4 spells (3 from features with free castings, 1 using a spell slot).
For Example, An Abyssal Tiefling Eldritch Knight with Shadow Touched:
Attack - Hold Person (Tiefling Legacy) then Ray of Sickness (Tiefling Legacy)
Action Surge
Attack - Color Spray (Shadow Touched) then Scorching Ray (with a spell slot)
And potentially even more castings with two uses of Action Surge:
Normally these sorts of features do not consume spell slots. For example, a Warrior of Shadow Monk can cast Darkness despite the fact that they have no spell slots.
Improved War Magic: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace two of the attacks with a casting of one of your level 1 or level 2 Wizard spells that has a casting time of an action."
You can replace two. That's a hard limit on the number of spells per Attack action. War Magic is a hard limit of 1 attack replaced with a Cantrip.
You can do this, and/or War Magic up to, I think, 3 times in one turn (Attack action, Action Surge Attack action, Hasted Attack action) for up to 5 level 1 or level 2 Wizard spells per turn (at least 4 will have to be from scrolls, species features, or other slotless sources) and 2 Cantrips. This assumes that it is preferrable to use a level 1 or 2 spell as opposed to a Cantrip. In addition, the Eldritch Knight would have 2 weapon attacks and a Bonus Action remaining.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
You only get one attack with a hasted Attack action, so that wouldn't be enough to use Improved War Magic
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think you're right, Smite, regarding the hard limit, but let me put here my own breakdown:
- Attack action: 1 cantrip [WM] + 1 spell (level 1 or 2) [IWM] + 1 attack
- Attack Action (Action Surge): 1 cantrip [WM] + 1 spell (level 1 or 2) [IWM] + 1 attack
- Attack Action (Action Surge): 1 cantrip [WM] + 1 spell (level 1 or 2) [IWM] + 1 attack
- Haste (only one attack): 1 cantrip [WM]
(note: assuming all this follows the One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn rule, and level 20 Eldritch Knigh)
EDIT: sorry, I didn't see AntonSirius's reply.
Now the question is... what level 1-2 spells are actually better than two attacks from an 18th level fighter?
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Oh, that question reminded me of this thread: War Magic and Improved War Magic on the same attack? I realize now it's related to the OP's question.
And I think I came to the wrong conclusion back then :( An upcasted spell is considered to be the level at which it's cast.
Oh. You're right! I misread Improved War Magic and that impacts my conclusions as well. Forgive me, I am playing a Rune Knight. :D
The first attack action could be one weapon attack, one cantrip, and one 1st or 2nd level spell. Then, the second attack action could be one weapon attack, one cantrip, and one 1st or 2nd level spell. And the hasted attack could be one cantrip.
Finally, the Eldritch Knight's Reaction and Bonus Action could be used cast spells, for a final potential 7 spells cast in one turn. Only one of those spells can use a spell slot.
As for good candidates? I don't know. It'd be funny to hit someone with Booming Blade, move around a corner, cast Rope Trick, and use your extra action to climb up. A lot of my immediate thoughts are Bonus Actions or Reactions. Blur, if you are getting slapped around too much. See Invisibility to counter an invisible foe without sacrificing all of your attacks. Enlarge can give you a very minor damage boost. Kinetic Jaunt to move an ally away from a threat. Gentle Repose on the body of the party member that just died (oops, but this can probably wait until after combat). Mirror Image.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
For raw damage, usually none, but occasionally control (e.g. hold person), defense (e.g. blur), or utility (e.g. see invisibility) spells may be worth those two attacks, since otherwise it would be a full action to cast. But yes, it would be a far more interesting feature if it let you cast third level spells.
A level 20 Eldritch Knight with an active Haste cast on the them by someone else could use their first two attacks to cast Hold Person, then dump a total of 7 more attacks with their weapon (2 remaining from their first Attack action, 4 more after using Action Surge, and one from Haste), 3 of which could be Booming Blade attacks, and all of which would have advantage on the attack, and all would be automatically deal critical damage.
Assuming a base Greatsword with Great Weapon Master, if everything hits their damage output in the first round would be 28d6+18d8+77, or ~197.5 damage. If the target remains Paralyzed until the second round, they could unload 9 auto-crit attacks for about 247.5 average damage. Seems like a worth-while strategy to me.