You didn't seem to understand the impact your knee jerk change would have on Dual Wielder. You seem to think martial classes are the powerhouses unbalancing the game. They are a glitch character but I haven't actually had a chance to play them because my Artificer hasn't died yet.
Second of all none of those rules say you are the boss of me. And yet you keep issuing me orders. Weird feel free to stop tellijg me what to do anytime.
I said i think these rules are overpowered, which is a perfectly legit opinion to have unless they changed the rules about opinions, and more importsntly i said i dont allow this when i DM, which is also a perfectly fine thing to say, unless rule zero got nerfed.
Whatever floats your boat, but that is not RAW and you are in the wrong forum for workshopping house rules.
"We should also remember that the player making that "single attack" you mention gets to use a weapon with a bigger damage die"
Lets assune a ability modifier of 18 at level 5.
Scimitars are light and have the nick property and use a d6. Avg=3.5 dmg and 4 attacks per turn at level 5. Thats 30 dmg.
Single handed non-light weapons generally use a d8 avg=4 dmg, and 2 attacks per turn at level 5. Thats 16 dmg.
Big 2 handed weapons usually ise a d10 or 2d6, avg=5.5 to 7.0 dmg, only 2 attacks per turn, and cant equip a shield. Thats 22 dmg and no shield.
Take all those total damages and multiply by your chance to hit, which would be maybe 75%.
Close, but not quite. For one thing, you are comparing a Fighter with at least one weapon mastery, A relevant fighting style, and a relevant feat to two fighters with none. It's not apples to apples. TLDR, for a basic comparison, the Two-handed weapon is first in DPR, followed by the two weapon user, and the one-handed weapon user is last at first but pulls into second place at level 11 on.
And yes, I can't be bothered, but I've seen the calculations done by the people who can be, and the damage numbers are pretty close. Light is not the clear winner. It may not even be the leader. (But, of course, these things aren't consistent across all levels. IIRC, it edges out the others at some points, but not consistently.)
Hold my Sprite...
Let's see if you're onto something, though. Barring exceptional circumstances, your hit chance is expected to be 65% at every level (well, 70% for level 9). That turns into 60% chance of a hit and 5% of a crit. Attribute modifier is expected to be 3 from levels 1-3, 4 from levels 4-7, and 5 from levels 8+. This would normally mean Dual Wielder can't be taken until level 12 without impacting accuracy. However, I am including the +4 Attribute modifier with Dual Wielder at level 4 because I realized it late in my calculations and it is an error you made as well. Also, I did not adjust the DPR for the +5 Attribute at level 8+ or the +3 before level 4. Oops. Between Epic Boons and being a Barbarian, there are ways to exceed this without magic items. Let's see what the numbers actually come out to. I guess you are assuming Fighter since there is an unstated extra attack at level 5.
A standard Scimitar attack will average 3.5 + 4 = 7.5 damage. Normalized it is 5.05. This also applies to Light and Dual Wielder attacks with Two-weapon Fighting.
4 attacks per turn with Two-weapon Fighting and Dual Wielder is 20.5 damage.
At levels 1-3, Dual Wielder is not available and it will be two attacks and the Light property represents 50% of the DPR (total 10.25).
At level 4, Dual Wielder is available but Extra Attack is not. The Light and Dual Wielder attacks represent 66.7% of the DPR (15.15).
The Light and Dual Wielder attacks represent 50% of the DPR for the fighter at levels 5-10 (20.5).
At level 11-19, the fighter has 3 attacks per attack action and Light and Dual Wielder represents 40% of the fighter's base DPR (25.25).
At level 20, Light and Dual Wielder drops to 33.3% of the fighter's base DPR as they get access to 4 attacks per attack action (30.3).
For reference, the TWF Fighting Style Feat is adding 5 normalized DPR.
This extra damage never scales with Action Surge or Haste.
The Nick and Dual Wielder attack is once per turn.
At level 2-3, an action surge with Haste, would produce 2 (attack action with Nick) + 1 (attack) + 1 Haste attack = 4 attacks for 20.2 DPR with Dual Wielder and TWF providing 18.45% of that DPR.
At level 4, an action surge with Haste, would produce 2 (attack action with Nick) + 1 (attack) +1 (Dual Wielder) + 1 Haste attack = 5 attacks for 25.25 DPR with Dual Wielder and TWF providing 18.45% of that DPR.
At level 5-10, an action surge with Haste, would produce 3 (attack action with Nick) + 2 (attack) +1 (Dual Wielder) + 1 Haste attack = 7 attacks for 35.35 DPR with Dual Wielder and TWF providing 18.45% of that DPR.
At level 11-19, an action surge with Haste, would produce 4 (attack action with Nick) + 3 (attack) +1 (Dual Wielder) + 1 Haste attack = 9 attacks for 45.45 DPR with Dual Wielder and TWF providing 18.45% of that DPR.
At level 20, an action surge with Haste, would produce 5 (attack action with Nick) + 4 (attack) +1 (Dual Wielder) + 1 Haste attack = 11 attacks for 55.55 DPR with Dual Wielder and TWF providing 18.45% of that DPR.
This extra damage does not affect Opportunity Attacks.
The normalized damage for an opportunity attack is 5.05.
In scenarios where magical weapons are needed or helpful (whether to bypass resistance or help with an unusually high AC), a character depending on two weapons will fall behind without double the investment.
One-handed Weapon will probably be paired with Dueling Fighting Style.
Vex doesn't matter on the first attack, but over multiple attacks against the same target, the normal 65% chance to hit becomes 84.14% chance. I have calculated the below DPR using a 78.95% chance for a normal hit and 5.25% chance of a critical.
I found a quick and dirty formula of calculating the DPR for Vex. It was used to calculate the above percentages and the below DPR results, but I can't guarantee the results.
One attack will average 4.5 + 4 + 2 = 10.5 damage. Normalized it is 9.08 damage.
At levels 1-4 one attack will be 9.08 DPR.
At levels 5-10, two attacks will be 18.15 DPR.
At levels 11-19, three attacks will be 27.23 DPR.
At level 20, four attacks will be 36.31 DPR.
This approach still has a Bonus Action available unlike Mr Light-Weapons-Go-Brrr.
This damage scales with Action Surge or Haste.
At level 2-4, an action surge with Haste, would produce 1 (attack) + 1 (attack) + 1 Haste attack = 3 attacks for 27.23 DPR.
At level 5-10, an action surge with Haste, would produce 2 (attack) + 2 (attack) + 1 Haste attack = 5 attacks for 45.38 DPR. At this point on, this equivalent to or better than the dual wielder.
At level 11-19, an action surge with Haste, would produce 3 (attack) + 3 (attack) + 1 Haste attack = 7 attacks for 63.54 DPR.
At level 20, an action surge with Haste, would produce 4 (attack) + 4 (attack) + 1 Haste attack = 9 attacks for 81.69 DPR.
This damage is the same for Opportunity Attacks.
It's unlikely that Vex will play a role in opportunity attacks so let's call the normalized damage for an opportunity attack 7.05.
In scenarios where magical weapons are needed, helpful, or even just available, a character with a single weapon is boosted evenly across all attacks.
I didn't include a feat to match Dual Wielder, but it could have been something like Sentinel to increase the chance of an Opportunity Attack.
Using a two-handed weapon, let's use go ahead and pick Greataxe (in practice, Halberd may be a better choice) with Cleave Mastery, Great Weapon Fighting and Great Weapon Master.
The average on the 1d12 will be 6.75 due to Great Weapon Fighting. A standard attack will be 6.75 + 4 = 10.75 damage. Normalized, it is 7.325 DPR. We'll factor in Great Weapon Master separately as it scales with level.
Level 1-3, it will be one attack for 7.325 DPR.
Cleave Mastery gives us one extra attack if at least another attack hits. The chance increases the more attacks you make in a round with the Cleave weapon. At levels 1-4, it has a 65% chance of occurring; 87.75% at levels 5-10; 95.71% at levels 11-19; and 98.5% at level 20. Anything that gives extra attacks increases the chances. At level 3, this adds 0.65 x 7.325 = 4.76 DPR for a total DPR of 12.09 DPR.
At level 4, Great Weapon Master makes it 8.626 DPR.
Cleave Mastery adds 0.65 x 8.626 = 5.61 DPR for a total DPR of 14.23 DPR.
Levels 5-8, proficiency bonus increases and we get Extra Attack. It is two attacks for 18.55 DPR.
Cleave Mastery adds 0.8775 x 9.275 = 8.14 DPR for a total DPR of 26.69 DPR.
Levels 9-10, proficiency bonus increases again and it is two attacks for 19.85 DPR.
Cleave Mastery adds 0.8775 x 9.925 = 8.71 DPR for a total DPR of 28.56 DPR.
Levels 11-12, we get Two Extra Attacks and it is three attacks for 29.775 DPR.
Cleave Mastery adds 0.957125 x 9.925 = 9.5 DPR for a total DPR of 39.27 DPR.
Levels 13-16, proficiency bonus increases and it is three attacks for 31.725 DPR.
Cleave Mastery adds 0.957125 x 10.575 = 10.12 DPR for a total DPR of 41.85 DPR.
Levels 17-19, proficiency bonus increases for the last time and it is three attacks for 33.675 DPR.
Cleave Mastery adds 0.957125 x 11.225 = 10.74 DPR for a total DPR of 44.42 DPR.
At level 20, we get Three Extra Attacks and it is 4 attacks for 44.9 DPR.
Cleave Mastery adds 0.98499375 x 11.225 = 11.06 DPR for a total DPR of 55.96 DPR.
This damage scales with Action Surge or Haste.
At levels 2-3, an action surge with Haste, would produce 1 (attack) + 1 (attack) + 1 Haste attack = 3 attacks with a 95.71% chance of a cleave for 24.85 DPR.
At level 4, the DPR increases to 28.75.
At levels 5-8, an action surge with Haste, would produce 2 (attack) + 2 (attack) + 1 Haste attack = 5 attacks with a 99.47% chance of a cleave for 51.35 DPR.
At levels 9-10, the DPR increases to 54.6.
At levels 11-12, an action surge with Haste, would produce 3 (attack) + 3 (attack) + 1 Haste attack = 7 attacks with a 99.94% chance of a cleave for 76.47 DPR.
At levels 13-16 the DPR increases to 81.02.
At levels 17-19 the DPR increases to 85.57.
At level 20, an action surge with Haste, would produce 4 (attack) + 4 (attack) + 1 Haste attack = 9 attacks with a 99.99% chance of a cleave for 110.02 DPR.
This damage is the same for Opportunity Attacks.
An opportunity attack has a 65% chance of producing a cleave at all levels. At level 5, the normalized damage is 15.3.
In scenarios where magical weapons are needed, helpful, or even just available, a character with a single weapon is boosted evenly across all attacks.
Over 20 levels, the two weapon user is only in the lead at level 5, barely. This without the other fighters using a Bonus Actions. A Halberd User with Pole Arm Master would lose out per attack versus the Greataxe, but should make it up with the extra attack in most scenarios. As mentioned, above I neglected to adjust for the expected attributes per level and the fact that the taking a feat will cause you to fall behind early on. This is generally a matter of quality over quantity.
At level 4, the Dual Wielder Fighter barely beats out the great weapon user, but only for that level.
Aside from level 4, the Vex Fighter is close behind the Dual Wielder and eventually pulls ahead. If I had correctly accounted for the attribute progression, the difference would be less from levels 4-10, possibly pulling ahead, but I don't want to recalculate all those numbers right now. :D
The Great Weapon Fighter dominates at almost all levels, though switching to a Halberd for Polearm Master will change the numbers slightly.
When using Action Surge (a signature Fighter ability) and particularly with Haste, the Dual Wielder is universally dead last.
Whether or not you are right about the balance of the damage output with the shield, your napkin math is off and the difference is not what you imagine it to be. My conclusion is that it not unbalanced. Comparable damage (about +/- 10% damage) expending a Bonus Action versus not expending a Bonus Action doesn't bother me. I suspect you might have better damage using two Vex weapons and forgoing Dual Wielder (or just taking it for equipping/unequipping two weapons).
Physics is the scientific study of matter, its fundamental constituents, its motion and behavior through space and time. I thought you were arguing that sheathing a weapon should be an action because it take some time to do in real life with scabbard not having funnel.
Rules Aren't Physics to me explain they're not designed to perfectly emulate such reality that's all.
My take on Quick Draw is that it increase the number of weapons you can draw or stow from 1 to 2, not the number of item interactions in itself, meaning;
You can draw two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw only one.
OR
You can stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to stow only one.
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
It effectively turn these game features into the following red strikethrough:
Utilize. You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a 2 sword as part of the Attack action.
Time-Limited Object Interactions.When time is short, such as in combat, interactions with objects are limited: one free interaction per turn. That interaction must occur during a creature’s movement or action. (ex. draw or stow 1 2 wepaons)
Thrown. If a weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, and you can draw that 2 weapon as part of the attack
Attack Action. You can either equip or unequip one 2 weapon when you make an attack as part of this action.
I play one for the telepathy, but you do you.
You didn't seem to understand the impact your knee jerk change would have on Dual Wielder. You seem to think martial classes are the powerhouses unbalancing the game. They are a glitch character but I haven't actually had a chance to play them because my Artificer hasn't died yet.
Whatever floats your boat, but that is not RAW and you are in the wrong forum for workshopping house rules.
Close, but not quite. For one thing, you are comparing a Fighter with at least one weapon mastery, A relevant fighting style, and a relevant feat to two fighters with none. It's not apples to apples. TLDR, for a basic comparison, the Two-handed weapon is first in DPR, followed by the two weapon user, and the one-handed weapon user is last at first but pulls into second place at level 11 on.
Hold my Sprite...
Let's see if you're onto something, though. Barring exceptional circumstances, your hit chance is expected to be 65% at every level (well, 70% for level 9). That turns into 60% chance of a hit and 5% of a crit. Attribute modifier is expected to be 3 from levels 1-3, 4 from levels 4-7, and 5 from levels 8+. This would normally mean Dual Wielder can't be taken until level 12 without impacting accuracy. However, I am including the +4 Attribute modifier with Dual Wielder at level 4 because I realized it late in my calculations and it is an error you made as well. Also, I did not adjust the DPR for the +5 Attribute at level 8+ or the +3 before level 4. Oops. Between Epic Boons and being a Barbarian, there are ways to exceed this without magic items. Let's see what the numbers actually come out to. I guess you are assuming Fighter since there is an unstated extra attack at level 5.
Over 20 levels, the two weapon user is only in the lead at level 5, barely. This without the other fighters using a Bonus Actions. A Halberd User with Pole Arm Master would lose out per attack versus the Greataxe, but should make it up with the extra attack in most scenarios. As mentioned, above I neglected to adjust for the expected attributes per level and the fact that the taking a feat will cause you to fall behind early on. This is generally a matter of quality over quantity.
Whether or not you are right about the balance of the damage output with the shield, your napkin math is off and the difference is not what you imagine it to be. My conclusion is that it not unbalanced. Comparable damage (about +/- 10% damage) expending a Bonus Action versus not expending a Bonus Action doesn't bother me. I suspect you might have better damage using two Vex weapons and forgoing Dual Wielder (or just taking it for equipping/unequipping two weapons).
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
The 5E 2024 rules make Dual Wielding in like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFo3_6dpLX0
Physics is the scientific study of matter, its fundamental constituents, its motion and behavior through space and time. I thought you were arguing that sheathing a weapon should be an action because it take some time to do in real life with scabbard not having funnel.
Rules Aren't Physics to me explain they're not designed to perfectly emulate such reality that's all.
See above...
My take on Quick Draw is that it increase the number of weapons you can draw or stow from 1 to 2, not the number of item interactions in itself, meaning;
It effectively turn these game features into the following
red strikethrough:You can see a good video from JNJ Tabletop on the topic here Can you ACTUALLY use a Shield WHILE Two Weapon Fighting? | D&D 2024 Rules Update - YouTube