I get what your saying Pantagruel666, but I would contest that this is not the case here. In defense I ask that you take a look at the Myconid. They are some of the most bizarre looking “people” in D&D, yet most games I hear about them appearing in the players are happy to leave them be as long as they are not directly a threat or trouble. But I’ll admit I mostly hear about them from OotA games.
Also why do we need to be told how to represent anything for that matter? In most cases that is left to the discretion of the DM and players who have more influence over this stuff anyway.
I’m sorry but I fail to see how orcs, fictional creatures originally created from the works of Tolkien with the explicit purpose of being fancy antagonist, all of a sudden reflect real ethnic groups of people.
I personly disagree with most of it, racism in my opinion is present in Tolkien work on the side of the men of the east. AS for the orcs they were built to be antagonistic creatures, they aren't humans. also, I personally prefer to give my players the freedom to make them what they want from orcs. some are barbarians other's arent. also, it is annoying to keep pushing real politics in games.
Thank you Twooshort, I admit this gave me more to think about. However it doesn’t chang my mind, because in order to get your point one has to do a bit of digging to make it work. Perhaps there has been a racial stereotype to orc in the past, but in todays world and today culture their perception have come to I believe only ever viewed them as plain general fiction orcs, no more no less.
Your hitting on the real rub for myself and others Orpheu, why are all players being forced into this, especially when it can be (and most is) handled at the table by the players already?
By virtue of the fact that since 2nd edition AD&D you could choose to be a lawful-good Orc, I think the designers acknowledged that diverse races and species can have all sorts of motivations and a range behaviors. Their actions inform the observer as to how they the observer classifies them. The tricky business is that in combat, whoever is trying to hack your limbs off will appear evil. To the lawful-good orc, you are the evil one, trying to hack their limbs off. Think of modern humans and war. Soldiers on both sides have very similar experiences, motivations and attributes. They are neither good nor evil; just human. But when they are banded together and united in a party, or in a company, and they are united to face the enemy, killing each other is more acceptable if they think of the enemy as "less than". The conditioning received by all soldiers and armies in the real world includes this kind of desensitization to the other. It begs the question: Must we fight the Orcs? Perhaps there is another way. Tolkein's Orcs were all bad from Thorin and Company's perspective. Of course, the dwarves and hobbit and Wizard were bad from the Orc's perspective. Perhaps a time will come when all species live in harmony, but what I have seen of the natural world, there is always conflict. Something is always eating something else, and being eaten by something else. I don't think portraying a group fearing and hating all Orcs is wrong per se, but is it prejudiced? Yes. Is that prejudice backed up by the law of averages? Yes. That Orc will gnaw on your skull if you let it. And you will cleft him in twain if he lets you. As Pearl Jam said, "It's evolution, baby!"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDaOgu2CQtI
I think wen you see Tolkein's Orcs enslaving the hobits, or when they try to eat them, and the elves, is pretty evil. the thing is orcs don't exist, it is how the dm present´s the story, also in the table, you can choose what they are, in mine, for example, live in the forests and are cool, I gave the halflings the twist of being the bad guys and not the orcs. why force all players, when it can be handled at the table
I don't get it there is already loads of divercity in D&D with all the races and stuff. As for the other stuff with alingments and wording changes. I dont see the need I think D&D already reflects the world pretty well, people are arseholes and D&D reflects that.
While I certainly understand the resentment at something you enjoy being cast as racist, this is about more than (y)our perspectives. The example of the origin of orcs and their descriptions may not have been obvious to you, but then I assume you're not of Mongolian ancestry*. What matters is that there are people for whom it is obvious, not to mention painful.
Given the choice between continuing to print/host material that causes pain to a number of people or changing it so it doesn't (as much), which do you think is more ethical? Ultimately, that is what it boils down to, are you so attached to your tropes that you are willing to accept the hurt it brings others?
You may argue that this is painful for you, so the balance is even. I'd say that I do not believe asking to do without problematic phrasing is anywhere near the same as seeing yet another reminder of the way people dehumanize(d) you.
* At least, not recently enough to matter. The numbers involved are such that pretty much everyone on the planet has Mongolian
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vote here for an interim solution for homebrew classes:
Ok, you have a strong point, still, I consider they should do it in future materials, not retconning the previous one. I am not really Mongolian but assuming that they still go on raiding in horses catapulting head's over citys to force them to surrender is dumb, also the warring culture of the Mongols is far more complex, belive I have studied it in Colege. it is the past and you can't change it, also any crime they have done, it is they, not a current Mongolian. Also, orcs are orcs they arent Mongols, Am orc is a fictional race, a mongol is a real ethnicity. If a player feels umconfreteble with something, even racial stuff approach the dm and talk to him, because that is what I will do if I feel offended by any stereotypical stuff they do about me, or my ancestors, also I am not them I do not have their crimes or injustices om y shoulders.
I'm aware of this change by the Wizards of the Coast from media and while it's a good thing to have orcs, etc. as more complex or nuanced characters I can't understand the rationale for re-writing stat bonuses; negative or positive.
'Races' in the context of fantasy worlds surely is an alternative term to species. Orcs and elves are different species, not different humans. Okay so elves and humans can have offspring, like lions and tigers or humans and vulcans, but they are different species. It does tend to be a term used only to refer to 'humanoid' species with language and 'advanced' technology.
'Races' in our world in contrast are a 'cultural construct' dreamed up laregely by European eugenicists in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
Rather than rewriting the bonuses either a) start using species rather than race, or b) define clearly what in meant by the use of 'race'.
I'm aware of this change by the Wizards of the Coast from media and while it's a good thing to have orcs, etc. as more complex or nuanced characters I can't understand the rationale for re-writing stat bonuses; negative or positive.
'Races' in the context of fantasy worlds surely is an alternative term to species. Orcs and elves are different species, not different humans. Okay so elves and humans can have offspring, like lions and tigers or humans and vulcans, but they are different species. It does tend to be a term used only to refer to 'humanoid' species with language and 'advanced' technology.
'Races' in our world in contrast are a 'cultural construct' dreamed up laregely by European eugenicists in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
Rather than rewriting the bonuses either a) start using species rather than race, or b) define clearly what in meant by the use of 'race'.
Thank you.
I'm all for removing stereotypes among the human races, but devolving stat changes from certain races like Orcs or Kobolds (species more correct as noted above) is going too far. Someone at the next meeting on diversity needs to hold up their hand and ask if the wokeness is getting a bit too stretched.
Why is the red dragon stronger then the blue dragon just because the color of its scales? Why can a Half-Ogre have a better Strength bonus then my Halfling?
Yes I know it's fantasy, but it still needs a tad of realism or it's going to get a bit strange.
i think if they change it here on dnd beyond they should at least allow a way to play it the old style. if they don't i'd prob just ban kobold and orc PC's in my game and call it a day.
i think if they change it here on dnd beyond they should at least allow a way to play it the old style. if they don't i'd prob just ban kobold and orc PC's in my game and call it a day.
It is possible to homebrew the races to add any ASI penalties you wish
yeah true, i honestly never liked running evil PC's unless the player had a good backstory/background and was a good roleplayer. i think maybe the negative stats were a selling point for me to get the players to think about their character and roleplay more. perhaps some ppl already beat me to it in the homebrew section
Yeah true, i honestly never liked running evil PC's unless the player had a good backstory/background and was a good roleplayer. i think maybe the negative stats were a selling point for me to get the players to think about their character and roleplay more. perhaps some ppl already beat me to it in the homebrew section
That's because people play evil like saturday-morning-cartoon evil instead of everyday-selfish-uncaring evil. The later makes for the most realistic PCs.
i think if they change it here on dnd beyond they should at least allow a way to play it the old style. if they don't i'd prob just ban kobold and orc PC's in my game and call it a day.
It is possible to homebrew the races to add any ASI penalties you wish
You actually can't. As far as I know, you can't add negative mods to races in the homebrew maker.
I get what your saying Pantagruel666, but I would contest that this is not the case here. In defense I ask that you take a look at the Myconid. They are some of the most bizarre looking “people” in D&D, yet most games I hear about them appearing in the players are happy to leave them be as long as they are not directly a threat or trouble. But I’ll admit I mostly hear about them from OotA games.
Also why do we need to be told how to represent anything for that matter? In most cases that is left to the discretion of the DM and players who have more influence over this stuff anyway.
Here's some light reading to get you started: https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-and-dragons-orcs-racist/
I also recommend https://jamesmendezhodes.com/blog/2019/1/13/orcs-britons-and-the-martial-race-myth-part-i-a-species-built-for-racial-terror (two-parter, second part is linked in the article) for a more in-depth examination on the origins of several racist tropes orcs are burdened with.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
I personly disagree with most of it, racism in my opinion is present in Tolkien work on the side of the men of the east. AS for the orcs they were built to be antagonistic creatures, they aren't humans. also, I personally prefer to give my players the freedom to make them what they want from orcs. some are barbarians other's arent. also, it is annoying to keep pushing real politics in games.
Thank you Twooshort, I admit this gave me more to think about. However it doesn’t chang my mind, because in order to get your point one has to do a bit of digging to make it work. Perhaps there has been a racial stereotype to orc in the past, but in todays world and today culture their perception have come to I believe only ever viewed them as plain general fiction orcs, no more no less.
Your hitting on the real rub for myself and others Orpheu, why are all players being forced into this, especially when it can be (and most is) handled at the table by the players already?
By virtue of the fact that since 2nd edition AD&D you could choose to be a lawful-good Orc, I think the designers acknowledged that diverse races and species can have all sorts of motivations and a range behaviors. Their actions inform the observer as to how they the observer classifies them. The tricky business is that in combat, whoever is trying to hack your limbs off will appear evil. To the lawful-good orc, you are the evil one, trying to hack their limbs off. Think of modern humans and war. Soldiers on both sides have very similar experiences, motivations and attributes. They are neither good nor evil; just human. But when they are banded together and united in a party, or in a company, and they are united to face the enemy, killing each other is more acceptable if they think of the enemy as "less than". The conditioning received by all soldiers and armies in the real world includes this kind of desensitization to the other. It begs the question: Must we fight the Orcs? Perhaps there is another way. Tolkein's Orcs were all bad from Thorin and Company's perspective. Of course, the dwarves and hobbit and Wizard were bad from the Orc's perspective. Perhaps a time will come when all species live in harmony, but what I have seen of the natural world, there is always conflict. Something is always eating something else, and being eaten by something else. I don't think portraying a group fearing and hating all Orcs is wrong per se, but is it prejudiced? Yes. Is that prejudice backed up by the law of averages? Yes. That Orc will gnaw on your skull if you let it. And you will cleft him in twain if he lets you. As Pearl Jam said, "It's evolution, baby!"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDaOgu2CQtI
I think wen you see Tolkein's Orcs enslaving the hobits, or when they try to eat them, and the elves, is pretty evil. the thing is orcs don't exist, it is how the dm present´s the story, also in the table, you can choose what they are, in mine, for example, live in the forests and are cool, I gave the halflings the twist of being the bad guys and not the orcs. why force all players, when it can be handled at the table
I don't get it there is already loads of divercity in D&D with all the races and stuff. As for the other stuff with alingments and wording changes. I dont see the need I think D&D already reflects the world pretty well, people are arseholes and D&D reflects that.
Dungeons & Dragons does not need 2 reflect the real world. That is the whole point of escapism and role-playing.
While I certainly understand the resentment at something you enjoy being cast as racist, this is about more than (y)our perspectives. The example of the origin of orcs and their descriptions may not have been obvious to you, but then I assume you're not of Mongolian ancestry*. What matters is that there are people for whom it is obvious, not to mention painful.
Given the choice between continuing to print/host material that causes pain to a number of people or changing it so it doesn't (as much), which do you think is more ethical? Ultimately, that is what it boils down to, are you so attached to your tropes that you are willing to accept the hurt it brings others?
You may argue that this is painful for you, so the balance is even. I'd say that I do not believe asking to do without problematic phrasing is anywhere near the same as seeing yet another reminder of the way people dehumanize(d) you.
* At least, not recently enough to matter. The numbers involved are such that pretty much everyone on the planet has Mongolian
Vote here for an interim solution for homebrew classes:
https://dndbeyond.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360036951934-Homebrew-class-interim-solution
Ok, you have a strong point, still, I consider they should do it in future materials, not retconning the previous one. I am not really Mongolian but assuming that they still go on raiding in horses catapulting head's over citys to force them to surrender is dumb, also the warring culture of the Mongols is far more complex, belive I have studied it in Colege. it is the past and you can't change it, also any crime they have done, it is they, not a current Mongolian. Also, orcs are orcs they arent Mongols, Am orc is a fictional race, a mongol is a real ethnicity. If a player feels umconfreteble with something, even racial stuff approach the dm and talk to him, because that is what I will do if I feel offended by any stereotypical stuff they do about me, or my ancestors, also I am not them I do not have their crimes or injustices om y shoulders.
ps: sorry any English typos :P
I'm aware of this change by the Wizards of the Coast from media and while it's a good thing to have orcs, etc. as more complex or nuanced characters I can't understand the rationale for re-writing stat bonuses; negative or positive.
'Races' in the context of fantasy worlds surely is an alternative term to species. Orcs and elves are different species, not different humans. Okay so elves and humans can have offspring, like lions and tigers or humans and vulcans, but they are different species. It does tend to be a term used only to refer to 'humanoid' species with language and 'advanced' technology.
'Races' in our world in contrast are a 'cultural construct' dreamed up laregely by European eugenicists in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
Rather than rewriting the bonuses either a) start using species rather than race, or b) define clearly what in meant by the use of 'race'.
Thank you.
I'm all for removing stereotypes among the human races, but devolving stat changes from certain races like Orcs or Kobolds (species more correct as noted above) is going too far. Someone at the next meeting on diversity needs to hold up their hand and ask if the wokeness is getting a bit too stretched.
Why is the red dragon stronger then the blue dragon just because the color of its scales? Why can a Half-Ogre have a better Strength bonus then my Halfling?
Yes I know it's fantasy, but it still needs a tad of realism or it's going to get a bit strange.
i think if they change it here on dnd beyond they should at least allow a way to play it the old style. if they don't i'd prob just ban kobold and orc PC's in my game and call it a day.
It is possible to homebrew the races to add any ASI penalties you wish
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yeah true, i honestly never liked running evil PC's unless the player had a good backstory/background and was a good roleplayer. i think maybe the negative stats were a selling point for me to get the players to think about their character and roleplay more. perhaps some ppl already beat me to it in the homebrew section
That's because people play evil like saturday-morning-cartoon evil instead of everyday-selfish-uncaring evil. The later makes for the most realistic PCs.
I am happy with the new changes, but change VGTM back. It make sense that wimpy dragon people have a negative bonus to strength.
You actually can't. As far as I know, you can't add negative mods to races in the homebrew maker.
You can do it by using:
This will then give you a negative racial bonus in the character builder
D&D Beyond moderator across forums, Discord, Twitch and YouTube. Always happy to help and willing to answer questions (or at least try). (he/him/his)
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
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