Specifically, the entire chain of Two-Weapon Fighting is 100% incompatible with ranged weapons, regardless of what feats they may have. If you allow a character to use TWF with ranged weapons, it is a house rule (I.e. not following RAW) no matter how it is rationalized, and comes with significant baggage.
Crossbow Expert allows the possibility (by breaking a lot of rules in the process) of emulating TWF by using two hand crossbows only to the extent that you could fire one (loaded) hand crossbow once as an action, and fire a second (also loaded) hand crossbow once as a bonus action. At that point, they must drop/stow one crossbow in order to load the other (due to Ammunition). Then they must drop/stow the loaded crossbow, and pick up/draw the second crossbow for loading. All of this is unachievable within the action economy of a singular turn.
It is simply not possible to work in Extra Attack without juggling shenanigans. The best case scenario is fire MH, fire OH, drop OH to reload & fire MH (Extra Attack), and even then you will waste every other turn on retrieving/reloading your other weapon. You don't have enough hands to make it work.
This is also beside the fact that it is actually impossible to ever operate two ranged weapons with the Ammunition property by yourself. RAW, these ranged weapons are never pre-loaded. Ammunition is loaded into the weapon when you are attacking with it. It is not possible to load the weapon without a free hand, and thus it's never possible to operate more than a single Crossbow, Hand at any given moment. In order to get around this, you would need two Artificers each infusing one of your hand crossbows with Repeating Shot to achieve a true "no reloading required" operational state.
So no, JC is actually completely wrong on this, but that should come as a surprise to no one. :P
When all is said and done, Akimbo Crossbows is only achievable by:
Significantly bending/breaking rules
Significant support from at least one other PC
Homebrew
Combination of the above
Conversely, you can achieve the full use of action/bonus action with Crossbow Expert, and gripping & ripping a single Crossbow, Hand.
Oh, just have to ask the history behind this JC comment.
Also, where is the RAW about the pre-loaded weapons? I'd like to read up on that one.
Probably the worst thing is - if you did allow the use of two hand crossbows at the same time by maybe ignoring the ammunition property that requires a free hand - it still wouldn't do more attacks than simply using 1 hand crossbow - it would be identical.
I'm curious about the statement of RAW range weapons, let's say specifically crossbow, are not preloaded.
Besides that, the player had to drop the second hand crossbow to reload the first which I had already forwarned would be an issue.
Duuude, take a deep dive into the history of Shield Master, and you'll see why JC's tweets are not considered official in any capacity. :P
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
He never really looks into the rules before he replies to questions. He says what he thinks is right in the moment - and that's often wrong per RAW. Sometimes it's even wrong per RAI.
He never really looks into the rules before he replies to questions. He says what he thinks is right in the moment - and that's often wrong per RAW. Sometimes it's even wrong per RAI.
That's interesting. I was not aware of, would you call it controversy, against JC so thanks for sharing a community opinion.
Errata is issued which does not correlate to what he said the RAI was
Community backlash (lasting to this day)
...
Profit?
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The irony is that @Emmbr and @Sigred the two of you had this same conversation close to a year ago in the "Can you wield dual hand crossbows?" thread. To which I think I found the mentioning of the pre-loading RAW Sigred was alluding too previously.
From PHB:
Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
Yes, that is what was referred to. Technically per the Ammunition property you need to load the weapon as part of the attack. There is nothing in the rules that says you can wander around with two loaded hand crossbows; the only time loading a weapon is mentioned in the rules is during the attack, and since you need a free hand to load the ammunition...
It makes zero sense, so I definitely wouldn't follow it, but them's the breaks.
The irony is that @Emmbr and @Sigred the two of you had this same conversation close to a year ago in the "Can you wield dual hand crossbows?" thread. To which I think I found the mentioning of the pre-loading RAW Sigred was alluding too previously.
From PHB:
Ammunition. You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
Is that the correct RAW?
Yup, that is what I was referencing when I said:
This is also beside the fact that it is actually impossible to ever operate two ranged weapons with the Ammunition property by yourself. RAW, these ranged weapons are never pre-loaded. Ammunition is loaded into the weapon when you are attacking with it. It is not possible to load the weapon without a free hand, and thus it's never possible to operate more than a single Crossbow, Hand at any given moment. In order to get around this, you would need two Artificers each infusing one of your hand crossbows with Repeating Shot to achieve a true "no reloading required" operational state.
Loading a weapon with the Ammunition property is done at the time of making an attack, not beforehand.
At the end of the day, if you're wanting to maximize the # of attacks you can make in a round with a Crossbow, Hand... take Crossbow Expert, and be done with it. That's the most output anyone is going to achieve, and trying to shoehorn in the use of a secondary weapon is a slippery-slope of complications that will not surpass what you can already do with a singular one.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
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Oh, just have to ask the history behind this JC comment.
Also, where is the RAW about the pre-loaded weapons? I'd like to read up on that one.
I'm curious about the statement of RAW range weapons, let's say specifically crossbow, are not preloaded.
Besides that, the player had to drop the second hand crossbow to reload the first which I had already forwarned would be an issue.
Duuude, take a deep dive into the history of Shield Master, and you'll see why JC's tweets are not considered official in any capacity. :P
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yeah, ok, so he mad a mistake on his Shield Master ruling was there more rules like that or just this one that seem to upset people?
He never really looks into the rules before he replies to questions. He says what he thinks is right in the moment - and that's often wrong per RAW. Sometimes it's even wrong per RAI.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
That's interesting. I was not aware of, would you call it controversy, against JC so thanks for sharing a community opinion.
Short version of SM debacle:
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The irony is that @Emmbr and @Sigred the two of you had this same conversation close to a year ago in the "Can you wield dual hand crossbows?" thread. To which I think I found the mentioning of the pre-loading RAW Sigred was alluding too previously.
Is that the correct RAW?
Yes, that is what was referred to. Technically per the Ammunition property you need to load the weapon as part of the attack. There is nothing in the rules that says you can wander around with two loaded hand crossbows; the only time loading a weapon is mentioned in the rules is during the attack, and since you need a free hand to load the ammunition...
It makes zero sense, so I definitely wouldn't follow it, but them's the breaks.
Yup, that is what I was referencing when I said:
Loading a weapon with the Ammunition property is done at the time of making an attack, not beforehand.
At the end of the day, if you're wanting to maximize the # of attacks you can make in a round with a Crossbow, Hand... take Crossbow Expert, and be done with it. That's the most output anyone is going to achieve, and trying to shoehorn in the use of a secondary weapon is a slippery-slope of complications that will not surpass what you can already do with a singular one.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.