So, a playee of mine is multiclassing barbarian and fighter and is level 5 in both, so both classes grant her extra attack. For her turn, does she get one extra attack from her barbarian class and one from fighter, or does she only get one?
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
Yes for some table and no for others. Some DM may rule that you can't if you start your turn with two unload crossbow because you don't have a free hand to load the bolt.
Same thing for having two one-hand weapons. 1 Attack, 1 Extra Attack and 1 from Bonus Action.
A dual wield fighter can have 5 attacks at lv 20. 1 Attack, 3 Extra Attack and 1 Bonus Action attack.
Yes for some table and no for others. Some DM may rule that you can't if you start your turn with two unload crossbow because you don't have a free hand to load the bolt.
If you're dual-wielding Hand Crossbows, yes this is an issue. But someone with Extra Attack and Crossbow Expert could make all three attacks with one Hand Crossbow as long as their other hand was free to load the bolts, since the Hand Crossbow meets the "one-handed weapon" requirements of the feat.
Yes for some table and no for others. (1) Some DM may rule that you can't if you start your turn with two unload crossbow (2) because you don't have a free hand to load the bolt.
No at all tables by RAW. Anything different is house rule territory.
Nobody should ever be wielding two Crossbow, Hand. There's literally no point in doing so. You cannot ever use ranged weapons (Thrown weapons are still melee weapons) for Two-Weapon Fighting, and Crossbow Expert's setup is for optimal use with a single hand crossbow fulfilling the requirements for both the action and bonus action. You still need a free hand to load ammunition as the Loading property actually has nothing to do with loading the weapon... it's really just a rate of fire property.
Even the Repeating Shot infusion (which does remove the need to physically load ammo yourself) does not make two hand crossbows a viable option. All roads lead to "why would you ever need two hand crossbows when everything can be done with one?"
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yes for some table and no for others. (1) Some DM may rule that you can't if you start your turn with two unload crossbow (2) because you don't have a free hand to load the bolt.
No at all tables by RAW. Anything different is house rule territory.
Nobody should ever be wielding two Crossbow, Hand. There's literally no point in doing so. You cannot ever use ranged weapons (Thrown weapons are still melee weapons) for Two-Weapon Fighting, and Crossbow Expert's setup is for optimal use with a single hand crossbow fulfilling the requirements for both the action and bonus action. You still need a free hand to load ammunition as the Loading property actually has nothing to do with loading the weapon... it's really just a rate of fire property.
Even the Repeating Shot infusion (which does remove the need to physically load ammo yourself) does not make two hand crossbows a viable option. All roads lead to "why would you ever need two hand crossbows when everything can be done with one?"
1) So a player in the game I run had this optimal vision of her rogue with two Hand Crossbows. No matter how much notes and breaking down how Crossbow Expert worked and needing a free hand for loading, all those little nuances. After all that information dump she still went and sold a Dagger +1 to buy another Hand Crossbow. Her first use of this duel action tuned out to be the the last time. It was pleasnt to see how happy she was seeing her vision come to a 'reality' but once seem to be enough for her dual hand crossbows style.
2) I'm not sure I understand your comment about Two-Weapon Fighting becase the rules says "If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it." So I'm curious regarding that comment.
2) I'm not sure I understand your comment about Two-Weapon Fighting becase the rules says "If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it." So I'm curious regarding that comment.
He's saying that while you can't ever use two-weapon fighting with ranged weapons, you can use it with thrown weapons because despite the fact that you may be making a ranged attack with them, they're melee weapons, not ranged.
2) I'm not sure I understand your comment about Two-Weapon Fighting becase the rules says "If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it." So I'm curious regarding that comment.
He's saying that while you can't ever use two-weapon fighting with ranged weapons, you can use it with thrown weapons because despite the fact that you may be making a ranged attack with them, they're melee weapons, not ranged.
Yes, thanks, that is exactly what I meant.
BKT, to the point on your specific player, I presume after that first usage by house rule they also came to the realization of "why am I even bothering when there is zero mechanical benefit to this?"
Shoehorning Crossbow, Hand into TWF usage (as a house rule) is significantly worse on paper than just sticking to one weapon with Crossbow Expert. That "offhand" attack with a second xbow, following TWF, would not have any ability score (Dex) modifier added to the damage of that attack. She would have also needed to pick up the Dual-Wielder feat to get that mod bonus, while there is no such restriction under Crossbow Expert.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
2) I'm not sure I understand your comment about Two-Weapon Fighting becase the rules says "If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it." So I'm curious regarding that comment.
He's saying that while you can't ever use two-weapon fighting with ranged weapons, you can use it with thrown weapons because despite the fact that you may be making a ranged attack with them, they're melee weapons, not ranged.
Yes, thanks, that is exactly what I meant.
BKT, to the point on your specific player, I presume after that first usage by house rule they also came to the realization of "why am I even bothering when there is zero mechanical benefit to this?"
Shoehorning Crossbow, Hand into TWF usage (as a house rule) is significantly worse on paper than just sticking to one weapon with Crossbow Expert. That "offhand" attack with a second xbow, following TWF, would not have any ability score (Dex) modifier added to the damage of that attack. She would have also needed to pick up the Dual-Wielder feat to get that mod bonus, while there is no such restriction under Crossbow Expert.
Not sure why you keep on using the term, House Rule in this conversation.
Sorry yes, you can, but it's still a bad idea because they still have the ammunition property. I'm honestly not sure why TWF was even part of the discussion at this point but I'm just on my phone lol.
Sorry yes, you can, but it's still a bad idea because they still have the ammunition property. I'm honestly not sure why TWF was even part of the discussion at this point but I'm just on my phone lol.
Ok, good, becuase for the life of me I was getting confused about something was I was sure standard rule and not house. Maybe there is something more that I'm missing, once again, based on Sigred statement he was following up on my description of the player wanting two hand crossbows.
The original TWF quesiton may have stemed from my asking a follow-up to Sigred "2) I'm not sure I understand your comment about Two-Weapon Fighting becase the rules says "If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it." So I'm curious regarding that comment." To which you cleared up the question for me.
Specifically, the entire chain of Two-Weapon Fighting is 100% incompatible with ranged weapons, regardless of what feats they may have. If you allow a character to use TWF with ranged weapons, it is a house rule (I.e. not following RAW) no matter how it is rationalized, and comes with significant baggage.
Crossbow Expert allows the possibility (by breaking a lot of rules in the process) of emulating TWF by using two hand crossbows only to the extent that you could fire one (loaded) hand crossbow once as an action, and fire a second (also loaded) hand crossbow once as a bonus action. At that point, they must drop/stow one crossbow in order to load the other (due to Ammunition). Then they must drop/stow the loaded crossbow, and pick up/draw the second crossbow for loading. All of this is unachievable within the action economy of a singular turn.
It is simply not possible to work in Extra Attack without juggling shenanigans. The best case scenario is fire MH, fire OH, drop OH to reload & fire MH (Extra Attack), and even then you will waste every other turn on retrieving/reloading your other weapon. You don't have enough hands to make it work.
This is also beside the fact that it is actually impossible to ever operate two ranged weapons with the Ammunition property by yourself. RAW, these ranged weapons are never pre-loaded. Ammunition is loaded into the weapon when you are attacking with it. It is not possible to load the weapon without a free hand, and thus it's never possible to operate more than a single Crossbow, Hand at any given moment. In order to get around this, you would need two Artificers each infusing one of your hand crossbows with Repeating Shot to achieve a true "no reloading required" operational state.
So no, JC is actually completely wrong on this, but that should come as a surprise to no one. :P
When all is said and done, Akimbo Crossbows is only achievable by:
Significantly bending/breaking rules
Significant support from at least one other PC
Homebrew
Combination of the above
Conversely, you can achieve the full use of action/bonus action with Crossbow Expert, and gripping & ripping a single Crossbow, Hand.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Probably the worst thing is - if you did allow the use of two hand crossbows at the same time by maybe ignoring the ammunition property that requires a free hand - it still wouldn't do more attacks than simply using 1 hand crossbow - it would be identical.
So, a playee of mine is multiclassing barbarian and fighter and is level 5 in both, so both classes grant her extra attack. For her turn, does she get one extra attack from her barbarian class and one from fighter, or does she only get one?
From the multiclassing rules at https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/customization-options#ExtraAttack
Given the specific wording of the features as well - it's clear they don't stack. They both say:
Since they both say you can attack twice - you can't attack three times (until you get to Fighter 11).
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
What if you have the Crossbow Expert with extra attack could I fire a Hand Crossbow three times, (1 Attack, 1 Extra Attack and 1 from bonus action)?
Only with a one-handed crossbow specifically - but yes.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Yes for some table and no for others. Some DM may rule that you can't if you start your turn with two unload crossbow because you don't have a free hand to load the bolt.
Same thing for having two one-hand weapons. 1 Attack, 1 Extra Attack and 1 from Bonus Action.
A dual wield fighter can have 5 attacks at lv 20. 1 Attack, 3 Extra Attack and 1 Bonus Action attack.
Yes, sorry, I was just editing that fact but you'd already responded.
If you're dual-wielding Hand Crossbows, yes this is an issue. But someone with Extra Attack and Crossbow Expert could make all three attacks with one Hand Crossbow as long as their other hand was free to load the bolts, since the Hand Crossbow meets the "one-handed weapon" requirements of the feat.
Even the Repeating Shot infusion (which does remove the need to physically load ammo yourself) does not make two hand crossbows a viable option. All roads lead to "why would you ever need two hand crossbows when everything can be done with one?"
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
1) So a player in the game I run had this optimal vision of her rogue with two Hand Crossbows. No matter how much notes and breaking down how Crossbow Expert worked and needing a free hand for loading, all those little nuances. After all that information dump she still went and sold a Dagger +1 to buy another Hand Crossbow. Her first use of this duel action tuned out to be the the last time. It was pleasnt to see how happy she was seeing her vision come to a 'reality' but once seem to be enough for her dual hand crossbows style.
2) I'm not sure I understand your comment about Two-Weapon Fighting becase the rules says "If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it." So I'm curious regarding that comment.
He's saying that while you can't ever use two-weapon fighting with ranged weapons, you can use it with thrown weapons because despite the fact that you may be making a ranged attack with them, they're melee weapons, not ranged.
Thank you.
Yes, thanks, that is exactly what I meant.
BKT, to the point on your specific player, I presume after that first usage by house rule they also came to the realization of "why am I even bothering when there is zero mechanical benefit to this?"
Shoehorning Crossbow, Hand into TWF usage (as a house rule) is significantly worse on paper than just sticking to one weapon with Crossbow Expert. That "offhand" attack with a second xbow, following TWF, would not have any ability score (Dex) modifier added to the damage of that attack. She would have also needed to pick up the Dual-Wielder feat to get that mod bonus, while there is no such restriction under Crossbow Expert.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Not sure why you keep on using the term, House Rule in this conversation.
Because you can't use two-weapon fighting with hand crossbows, as they are ranged weapons. If you allow it, it's a house rule.
So with her having Crossbow Expert she cannot 'dual wield' two hand crossbows and shoot them. Maybe I misunderstood https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1105278841612754950?s=20
Sorry yes, you can, but it's still a bad idea because they still have the ammunition property. I'm honestly not sure why TWF was even part of the discussion at this point but I'm just on my phone lol.
Ok, good, becuase for the life of me I was getting confused about something was I was sure standard rule and not house. Maybe there is something more that I'm missing, once again, based on Sigred statement he was following up on my description of the player wanting two hand crossbows.
The original TWF quesiton may have stemed from my asking a follow-up to Sigred "2) I'm not sure I understand your comment about Two-Weapon Fighting becase the rules says "If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it." So I'm curious regarding that comment." To which you cleared up the question for me.
Specifically, the entire chain of Two-Weapon Fighting is 100% incompatible with ranged weapons, regardless of what feats they may have. If you allow a character to use TWF with ranged weapons, it is a house rule (I.e. not following RAW) no matter how it is rationalized, and comes with significant baggage.
Crossbow Expert allows the possibility (by breaking a lot of rules in the process) of emulating TWF by using two hand crossbows only to the extent that you could fire one (loaded) hand crossbow once as an action, and fire a second (also loaded) hand crossbow once as a bonus action. At that point, they must drop/stow one crossbow in order to load the other (due to Ammunition). Then they must drop/stow the loaded crossbow, and pick up/draw the second crossbow for loading. All of this is unachievable within the action economy of a singular turn.
It is simply not possible to work in Extra Attack without juggling shenanigans. The best case scenario is fire MH, fire OH, drop OH to reload & fire MH (Extra Attack), and even then you will waste every other turn on retrieving/reloading your other weapon. You don't have enough hands to make it work.
This is also beside the fact that it is actually impossible to ever operate two ranged weapons with the Ammunition property by yourself. RAW, these ranged weapons are never pre-loaded. Ammunition is loaded into the weapon when you are attacking with it. It is not possible to load the weapon without a free hand, and thus it's never possible to operate more than a single Crossbow, Hand at any given moment. In order to get around this, you would need two Artificers each infusing one of your hand crossbows with Repeating Shot to achieve a true "no reloading required" operational state.
So no, JC is actually completely wrong on this, but that should come as a surprise to no one. :P
When all is said and done, Akimbo Crossbows is only achievable by:
Conversely, you can achieve the full use of action/bonus action with Crossbow Expert, and gripping & ripping a single Crossbow, Hand.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Probably the worst thing is - if you did allow the use of two hand crossbows at the same time by maybe ignoring the ammunition property that requires a free hand - it still wouldn't do more attacks than simply using 1 hand crossbow - it would be identical.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).