Well its a pickle, a spell so good that everyone would play a druid to heal, but hang on that doesnt seem to be the case. Is it because even with Healing Marmite on the spell list too many people look at druids (who arent spore or moon) and ask themselves why not be a cleric instead, at least they get better than hide armour and a great selection of subclass abilities!
Healing Marmite is here and unless we start having spells and abilities being rewritten according to tweets and garbled errata we are stuck with it. You dont have to like it, some of you (not AL) might want to imagine it out of existence and the Marmite addicts could try to go cold turkey and try to play a healer of another type to attempt to sympathise.
I will hand on heart admit this post was TL:DR but it seems to me its long past the point anyone is going to budge on their position. As such maybe its time this thread was taken out to the woodshed and put down. (without the ceremonial summoning of the Olympic Marmite to end the ceremony)
I got to wonder if players at all think what the in character reactions to this would actually be (you know the role play part).
Ranger to grizzed Veteran warrior: "Ok I now need you to walk back and forth through this spirit" Veteran warrior: *gives the ranger that look* "you want me to prance around like some tavern bard? Get your arse over here and heal me properly, we've no time for this tomfoolery".
Sounds like the spell is only overpowered if you are going to meta game it, quite frankly if that is the case you got other problems.
It's not metagaming: the spell literally works like that in the character's world. The characters aren't metagaming when the mage produces a powdered rhubarb leaf and an adder’s stomach in order to cast Acid Arrow. "An adders stomach, Merlyn? This isn't the dark ages!"
Given that the spell does work best when the patients are able to form a conga line, then a "grizzled veteran" would have seen this a thousand times and will be resigned to looking a fool if he wants to get healed. It's not a huge step from lining up to see the army doc, getting jabbed in the arm, dropping your pants and coughing, then moving on...are our brave soldiers in this world metagaming when they do that?
"Pass without trace to me seems a way better use in avoiding the damage in the first place by never being noticed (as that is potentially 100% of every characters health for an hour)." - Loswaith. (Last seen on the 543rd level of the abyss, just as his Pass Without Trace spell expired.)
Try this in one of Matt Colville's games and let us know how that worked out! :)
The spell doesn't however work that way in the setting, because the setting has no notion at all of the combat round, that is purely a mechanical delineation. Character's cant meta-game, players do, as character have no concept of the mechanical limitations imposed by the game system.
A wizard uses the material components to harness the sympathetic powers within them to achieve a goal, thus they do know using certain material components allow for magic to function. Just like most real world people know batteries keep a flashlight working.
The characters don't know that a certain power will only heal 1d6 damage per 'person' every 6 seconds anymore than a wizard would know a fireball does 8d6 damage, all they would know is that they heal faster being in the spirit, while all the wizard knows is it does significant damage.
The example you give in relation is more that the veteran going to that doctor/medic asking for a shot every few seconds to "feel better". They are more likely to expect the doctor to just do their job properly the first time. Sure they may sit and wait for the full result to take effect.
It is something that could be missed by simply looking at it from the narrative perspective rather than "how much can I get out of it mechanically".
Fairly sure you would be hard pressed to get away with using Healing Spirit in that manner in Matt Colville's games, regardless of what place you are in.
I got to wonder if players at all think what the in character reactions to this would actually be (you know the role play part).
Ranger to grizzed Veteran warrior: "Ok I now need you to walk back and forth through this spirit" Veteran warrior: *gives the ranger that look* "you want me to prance around like some tavern bard? Get your arse over here and heal me properly, we've no time for this tomfoolery".
Sounds like the spell is only overpowered if you are going to meta game it, quite frankly if that is the case you got other problems.
It's not metagaming: the spell literally works like that in the character's world. The characters aren't metagaming when the mage produces a powdered rhubarb leaf and an adder’s stomach in order to cast Acid Arrow. "An adders stomach, Merlyn? This isn't the dark ages!"
Given that the spell does work best when the patients are able to form a conga line, then a "grizzled veteran" would have seen this a thousand times and will be resigned to looking a fool if he wants to get healed. It's not a huge step from lining up to see the army doc, getting jabbed in the arm, dropping your pants and coughing, then moving on...are our brave soldiers in this world metagaming when they do that?
"Pass without trace to me seems a way better use in avoiding the damage in the first place by never being noticed (as that is potentially 100% of every characters health for an hour)." - Loswaith. (Last seen on the 543rd level of the abyss, just as his Pass Without Trace spell expired.)
Try this in one of Matt Colville's games and let us know how that worked out! :)
The spell doesn't however work that way in the setting, because the setting has no notion at all of the combat round, that is purely a mechanical delineation. Character's cant meta-game, players do, as character have no concept of the mechanical limitations imposed by the game system.
A wizard uses the material components to harness the sympathetic powers within them to achieve a goal, thus they do know using certain material components allow for magic to function. Just like most real world people know batteries keep a flashlight working.
The characters don't know that a certain power will only heal 1d6 damage per 'person' every 6 seconds anymore than a wizard would know a fireball does 8d6 damage, all they would know is that they heal faster being in the spirit, while all the wizard knows is it does significant damage.
The example you give in relation is more that the veteran going to that doctor/medic asking for a shot every few seconds to "feel better". They are more likely to expect the doctor to just do their job properly the first time. Sure they may sit and wait for the full result to take effect.
It is something that could be missed by simply looking at it from the narrative perspective rather than "how much can I get out of it mechanically".
Fairly sure you would be hard pressed to get away with using Healing Spirit in that manner in Matt Colville's games, regardless of what place you are in.
I disagree with several of your points, but will only answer two and hope people see where the two of us differ in our opinions. (Or recognise a weakness in either argument.)
"Ranger to grizzed Veteran warrior: "Ok I now need you to walk back and forth through this spirit" "
I said that is exactly how the spell works most efficiently in the warriors realm and you argued that "The spell doesn't however work that way in the setting, because the setting has no notion at all of the combat round, that is purely a mechanical delineation." I never mentioned combat rounds. The ranger never mentioned combat rounds; he said walk back and forth through the spirit. This is literally how the spell is most effective in their world*, the same as getting booster shots at regular (albeit longer) intervals in this world works. And regular doses of medicine (Take two tablets before a meal...) Does your doctor tell you to take all your antibiotics in one dose, or spread over a week? Do you argue with him that he should be able to cure you instantly?
If you read the paragraph above my closing comment about using Pass Without Trace in a Matt Colville game, you should be able to see that I was talking about Pass without Trace and NOT Healing Spirit.
*Most effective when healing more than one entity; with just one patient, they can just lie there.
*glances in* Its been nearly a year, and this thread is still around? Huh.
See, that's how OP it is - a thread about Cure Light Wounds would have died with 4th edition...
Didn't Cure Light Wounds actually die?
I kinda think that was my point. (I hesitate to call it a joke :D )
Maybe you could point out BdaddLy's glaring error about Healing Spirit being in the Necromancy school...because I checked, and it is definitely conjuration. Either he is mistaken, or that was actually quite a funny line about Necrothreads.
Notes: edited to remove insult - please do not insult other users - name calling is not allowed
I realise my answer should have been that, no, cure light wounds didn't actually die because it is a spell in a made up game system. The "light" part was removed because with the ability to cast a spell at a higher level it would be ridiculous to remove 9D8 damage and yet still be considered light.
My take: The rule is the rule. Whether you play at a table where people want to do something that some could perceive as strange just to get a mechanical benefit will vary from group to group.
My take: The rule is the rule. Whether you play at a table where people want to do something that some could perceive as strange just to get a mechanical benefit will vary from group to group.
The point is that not all rules are GOOD rules. The developers actively seek feedback (through the UA and forums) so they WANT to hear if we have complaints and concerns.
Obviously, some players have concerns. I am currently DMing a game with a Druid that uses this spell in combat and it's fine as it is. However, the worry is about the out-of-combat uses. This one spell can heal more than any other spell at its level by a wide margin and that strikes some as unbalanced. This unbalance means that either the DM has to deal with it (are you REALLY going to tell your players that they can't rest for a minute between encounters?), house rule it in some way or whatever.
What seems broken to me is Prayer of Healing. Prayer of Healing is much too weak. It takes 10 minutes to cast the spell. It should be able to fully heal the party.
Oh boy, lets go for some oil on the fire. Is healing spirit better with 6 people in a party than a... etc, lots of numbers - answer = yes. But lets be fair, a conjured creature that can do x damage is not the same as a conjured creature that grapples flies and drops its target. How many other spells require interaction by the party to function 'amazingly'? Wouldnt you expect a spell requiring repeated interaction used well(spike growth and area denial damage spells* for example) to have the potential to do more? Is encouraging the party to think about movement and taking care of themselves a good thing? Of course it is as its provoking some thought.
Now as amusing as okie cokie dances is, out of combat the 4+ man dogpile can have everyone in a 5' space and allow some cuddling at the same time, no dance off required.
Is the objection to healing spirit that it is a spell that can do more or that it is obvious that it can do more? Any spell which allows control of another creature (summon animate or other) will have the potential to have a greater variable effect than a spell of higher levels but either the decision tree to make that happen is deemed acceptable or it is just less easily determined as 'oh my!'. Should all of them be removed?
Or should we be satisfied that if such a spell has been used in a game and threw off a DM's calculated challenge then they can find some advice here on how to approach it in the future at the table, hopefully something more than - dont like it burn the XGtE.
*A meteor swarm deals 40d6 damage to a large area, using the 6 man example as a target you deal 240d6 But wall of fire a much lower level spell can do 50d8 over 1 minute or 300d8 to the 6 man party. drop that in aroom along the wall when there is no distance out of its effect and bar the exit and look it seems overpowered. A spell used well makes other spells not reliant on time or tactics seem pointless in comparison, but only when used optimally.
Quote from Moondruidsneversleep>>A spell used well makes other spells not reliant on time or tactics seem pointless in comparison, but only when used optimally.
Agreed. HOW a spell or trait or effect is used is every bit as important as the overall effect.
Any spell that restrains the target coupled with any spell that has a damage over time effect seems OP as described but ONLY if the players figure out to use them that way.
Often it comes down to the players being clever enough to use their abilities wisely.
There are numerous spells, feats and class features designed to allow some healing out of combat and they are all turned into rancid dookie by the grotesquely imbalanced Healing Spirit.
Healing Spirit out of combat allows a Level 5 ranger to heal 60d6 (120d6 if you allow piggybacking) per spell cast. Nothing in the game even comes close to this. It is 10x faster than Prayer of Healing and dramatically more powerful to boot. It scales so hard that it will - when cast at level 9 - out heal Mass Heal by a goodly amount.
Actually, might as well have any Dwarven smith or Gnome tinker come up with the Healing Spirit Sled. It holds 5 players, has wheels to facilitate easy movement and allows the entire 6 man party to push the team through the Healing Spirit and then hop aboard so another party member can push the sled back through on their turn.
Healing Spirit plus party sled ramps up healing to 36d6 per round (1d6 per person x 6 man party x 6 passes per round) and a whopping 360d6 for a 2nd level spell.
If you have 6 party members who are conscious and down 210 hit points, and if you have a second level spell slot left...
The last 'if' is important, 'cause if you're down 1260 hp as a party and you have spell slots left after that crazy battle you'll probably want to reconsider the tactics that got you here.
I've said this before, this is a non-issue for any decent DM. If one 2nd level spell is destroying your campaign then you need to rethink your campaign and combat encounters. This is a trivial issue that only Adversarial DM's would get upset about. Do you get upset when players use a spell slot to take a short rest? (catnap) "Oh, a 10 min short rest, get the pitchforks!!" Or when players use spells to circumvent an encounter?
If you don't like it don't allow it, but to come here and whine about it as a DM that controls almost every aspect of a game is petty.
You've all just given me a wonderful idea. Gonna have to make a sorlock with catnap to recover spell slots when healing, and stockpile extra spell slots, casting catnap every 11 minutes when we're not in the thick. Three fifth level slots = 15 sorc points = one and a half fifth level slots and one third slot. Gain 3 fifth level slots every 22 minutes. When everyone else would take a short rest I take 5. Sorc 9 Lock 9... Druid Circle of the Dream 2... For flavor... And Healing Spirit.
See, that's how OP it is - a thread about Cure Light Wounds would have died with 4th edition...
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Healing Spirit turns out to be in the Necromancy school, only disguised as Conjuration.
Extended Signature
Didn't Cure Light Wounds actually die?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Well its a pickle, a spell so good that everyone would play a druid to heal, but hang on that doesnt seem to be the case. Is it because even with Healing Marmite on the spell list too many people look at druids (who arent spore or moon) and ask themselves why not be a cleric instead, at least they get better than hide armour and a great selection of subclass abilities!
Healing Marmite is here and unless we start having spells and abilities being rewritten according to tweets and garbled errata we are stuck with it. You dont have to like it, some of you (not AL) might want to imagine it out of existence and the Marmite addicts could try to go cold turkey and try to play a healer of another type to attempt to sympathise.
I will hand on heart admit this post was TL:DR but it seems to me its long past the point anyone is going to budge on their position. As such maybe its time this thread was taken out to the woodshed and put down. (without the ceremonial summoning of the Olympic Marmite to end the ceremony)
The spell doesn't however work that way in the setting, because the setting has no notion at all of the combat round, that is purely a mechanical delineation.
Character's cant meta-game, players do, as character have no concept of the mechanical limitations imposed by the game system.
A wizard uses the material components to harness the sympathetic powers within them to achieve a goal, thus they do know using certain material components allow for magic to function. Just like most real world people know batteries keep a flashlight working.
The characters don't know that a certain power will only heal 1d6 damage per 'person' every 6 seconds anymore than a wizard would know a fireball does 8d6 damage, all they would know is that they heal faster being in the spirit, while all the wizard knows is it does significant damage.
The example you give in relation is more that the veteran going to that doctor/medic asking for a shot every few seconds to "feel better". They are more likely to expect the doctor to just do their job properly the first time. Sure they may sit and wait for the full result to take effect.
It is something that could be missed by simply looking at it from the narrative perspective rather than "how much can I get out of it mechanically".
Fairly sure you would be hard pressed to get away with using Healing Spirit in that manner in Matt Colville's games, regardless of what place you are in.
- Loswaith
I disagree with several of your points, but will only answer two and hope people see where the two of us differ in our opinions. (Or recognise a weakness in either argument.)
"Ranger to grizzed Veteran warrior: "Ok I now need you to walk back and forth through this spirit" "
I said that is exactly how the spell works most efficiently in the warriors realm and you argued that "The spell doesn't however work that way in the setting, because the setting has no notion at all of the combat round, that is purely a mechanical delineation."
I never mentioned combat rounds. The ranger never mentioned combat rounds; he said walk back and forth through the spirit. This is literally how the spell is most effective in their world*, the same as getting booster shots at regular (albeit longer) intervals in this world works. And regular doses of medicine (Take two tablets before a meal...) Does your doctor tell you to take all your antibiotics in one dose, or spread over a week? Do you argue with him that he should be able to cure you instantly?
If you read the paragraph above my closing comment about using Pass Without Trace in a Matt Colville game, you should be able to see that I was talking about Pass without Trace and NOT Healing Spirit.
*Most effective when healing more than one entity; with just one patient, they can just lie there.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
I kinda think that was my point. (I hesitate to call it a joke :D )
Maybe you could point out BdaddLy's glaring error about Healing Spirit being in the Necromancy school...because I checked, and it is definitely conjuration. Either he is mistaken, or that was actually quite a funny line about Necrothreads.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
That.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Sorry.
I realise my answer should have been that, no, cure light wounds didn't actually die because it is a spell in a made up game system. The "light" part was removed because with the ability to cast a spell at a higher level it would be ridiculous to remove 9D8 damage and yet still be considered light.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
My take: The rule is the rule. Whether you play at a table where people want to do something that some could perceive as strange just to get a mechanical benefit will vary from group to group.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The point is that not all rules are GOOD rules. The developers actively seek feedback (through the UA and forums) so they WANT to hear if we have complaints and concerns.
Obviously, some players have concerns. I am currently DMing a game with a Druid that uses this spell in combat and it's fine as it is. However, the worry is about the out-of-combat uses. This one spell can heal more than any other spell at its level by a wide margin and that strikes some as unbalanced. This unbalance means that either the DM has to deal with it (are you REALLY going to tell your players that they can't rest for a minute between encounters?), house rule it in some way or whatever.
What seems broken to me is Prayer of Healing. Prayer of Healing is much too weak. It takes 10 minutes to cast the spell. It should be able to fully heal the party.
Extended Signature
Oh boy, lets go for some oil on the fire. Is healing spirit better with 6 people in a party than a... etc, lots of numbers - answer = yes. But lets be fair, a conjured creature that can do x damage is not the same as a conjured creature that grapples flies and drops its target. How many other spells require interaction by the party to function 'amazingly'? Wouldnt you expect a spell requiring repeated interaction used well(spike growth and area denial damage spells* for example) to have the potential to do more? Is encouraging the party to think about movement and taking care of themselves a good thing? Of course it is as its provoking some thought.
Now as amusing as okie cokie dances is, out of combat the 4+ man dogpile can have everyone in a 5' space and allow some cuddling at the same time, no dance off required.
Is the objection to healing spirit that it is a spell that can do more or that it is obvious that it can do more? Any spell which allows control of another creature (summon animate or other) will have the potential to have a greater variable effect than a spell of higher levels but either the decision tree to make that happen is deemed acceptable or it is just less easily determined as 'oh my!'. Should all of them be removed?
Or should we be satisfied that if such a spell has been used in a game and threw off a DM's calculated challenge then they can find some advice here on how to approach it in the future at the table, hopefully something more than - dont like it burn the XGtE.
*A meteor swarm deals 40d6 damage to a large area, using the 6 man example as a target you deal 240d6 But wall of fire a much lower level spell can do 50d8 over 1 minute or 300d8 to the 6 man party. drop that in aroom along the wall when there is no distance out of its effect and bar the exit and look it seems overpowered. A spell used well makes other spells not reliant on time or tactics seem pointless in comparison, but only when used optimally.
Agreed. HOW a spell or trait or effect is used is every bit as important as the overall effect.
Any spell that restrains the target coupled with any spell that has a damage over time effect seems OP as described but ONLY if the players figure out to use them that way.
Often it comes down to the players being clever enough to use their abilities wisely.
Healing Spirit in combat is fine.
There are numerous spells, feats and class features designed to allow some healing out of combat and they are all turned into rancid dookie by the grotesquely imbalanced Healing Spirit.
Healing Spirit out of combat allows a Level 5 ranger to heal 60d6 (120d6 if you allow piggybacking) per spell cast. Nothing in the game even comes close to this. It is 10x faster than Prayer of Healing and dramatically more powerful to boot. It scales so hard that it will - when cast at level 9 - out heal Mass Heal by a goodly amount.
Actually, might as well have any Dwarven smith or Gnome tinker come up with the Healing Spirit Sled. It holds 5 players, has wheels to facilitate easy movement and allows the entire 6 man party to push the team through the Healing Spirit and then hop aboard so another party member can push the sled back through on their turn.
Healing Spirit plus party sled ramps up healing to 36d6 per round (1d6 per person x 6 man party x 6 passes per round) and a whopping 360d6 for a 2nd level spell.
If you have 6 party members who are conscious and down 210 hit points, and if you have a second level spell slot left...
The last 'if' is important, 'cause if you're down 1260 hp as a party and you have spell slots left after that crazy battle you'll probably want to reconsider the tactics that got you here.
Extended Signature
I've said this before, this is a non-issue for any decent DM. If one 2nd level spell is destroying your campaign then you need to rethink your campaign and combat encounters. This is a trivial issue that only Adversarial DM's would get upset about. Do you get upset when players use a spell slot to take a short rest? (catnap) "Oh, a 10 min short rest, get the pitchforks!!" Or when players use spells to circumvent an encounter?
If you don't like it don't allow it, but to come here and whine about it as a DM that controls almost every aspect of a game is petty.
I have to agree with this. You can choose to allow it in your game or not.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
You've all just given me a wonderful idea. Gonna have to make a sorlock with catnap to recover spell slots when healing, and stockpile extra spell slots, casting catnap every 11 minutes when we're not in the thick. Three fifth level slots = 15 sorc points = one and a half fifth level slots and one third slot. Gain 3 fifth level slots every 22 minutes. When everyone else would take a short rest I take 5. Sorc 9 Lock 9... Druid Circle of the Dream 2... For flavor... And Healing Spirit.
Extended Signature