"So, you're the new drow, eh? What do you call yourselves?"
"Udadrow."
"No, I'm not drow, you're drow. I'm asking you what name you have for your people."
"Udadrow."
"Look pal, I am very clearly a halfling. I just want to know if you refer to yourselves as someone other than just 'drow'."
We laugh, but I would not be surprised if when these differing Drow come into contact with their different stories of the before times, arguments will break down to "No, you're the renegade faction who disappeared from the true path!" exclamations with finger pointing. Fortunately the O.G. Drow will show up in Spelljammers with not cases but Casks of White Claw for everyone to just chill out until they reach the White Lodge. The O.G. Greyhawk Drow will bring their barber corps with them to get all these new school Drow set right with their mustaches and hairlines.
Also wondering whether it's not "you da Drow" but a shorter u, and an elogated consonant for "udda Drow", which means the new Drow are othering the under dark Drow.
I still think overall this is a good thing, especially if you don’t know much about the drow, which a lot of new fans don’t. Gives drow society more depth by a factor of three, even if the new societies are just enclaves. And it’s probably pronounced “Oodadrow.”
I still think overall this is a good thing, especially if you don’t know much about the drow, which a lot of new fans don’t. Gives drow society more depth by a factor of three, even if the new societies are just enclaves. And it’s probably pronounced “Oodadrow.”
Honestly, I don't care about what happens in the FR. It's a huge mess of things, most of it stolen from other more interesting settings. At start, it was all Ed's work and really nice, but it's become bloated, retconned to death and manipulated so much that it's unrecognisable.
(I was gonna add a note in about how R.A. Salvatore created the drow, but my friend just told me he didn’t. Gary Gygax, the creator of D&D, did back in the Seventies.)
Exactly, and although I should not really care, it still bugs me that the very inferior copy that Salvatore did (honestly, I found more wealth of information in the simple "Vault of the Drow" module than in all the books of Salvatore, at least in terms of gaming possibilities), and a prose that was honestly terrible at start (although it got slightly better, the Crystal Shard is a smoking piece of *****) has completely occulted the really much more creative work of Gygax in that particular area.
Did Drow really used to have mustaches back then? I’ve never seen an elf with a mustache.
I still think overall this is a good thing, especially if you don’t know much about the drow, which a lot of new fans don’t. Gives drow society more depth by a factor of three, even if the new societies are just enclaves. And it’s probably pronounced “Oodadrow.”
Honestly, I don't care about what happens in the FR. It's a huge mess of things, most of it stolen from other more interesting settings. At start, it was all Ed's work and really nice, but it's become bloated, retconned to death and manipulated so much that it's unrecognisable.
(I was gonna add a note in about how R.A. Salvatore created the drow, but my friend just told me he didn’t. Gary Gygax, the creator of D&D, did back in the Seventies.)
Exactly, and although I should not really care, it still bugs me that the very inferior copy that Salvatore did (honestly, I found more wealth of information in the simple "Vault of the Drow" module than in all the books of Salvatore, at least in terms of gaming possibilities), and a prose that was honestly terrible at start (although it got slightly better, the Crystal Shard is a smoking piece of *****) has completely occulted the really much more creative work of Gygax in that particular area.
Did Drow really used to have mustaches back then? I’ve never seen an elf with a mustache.
Yes, some had, in particular there were two specific pieces of art which I found great, but which are probably also a bit dated in terms of mens' fashion.
Honestly, I did not mind at the time, and I still don't, it really makes them different.
However, while 5e hasn't officially supported Greyhawk
Except that Mordenkainen is a Greyhawk character as are Tasha the Grinning Mage and Iggwilv. And Saltmarsh is set in Keoland....
And they still are.
It's the same trope as, say, Moorcock's Eternal Champion stuff.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I still think overall this is a good thing, especially if you don’t know much about the drow, which a lot of new fans don’t. Gives drow society more depth by a factor of three, even if the new societies are just enclaves. And it’s probably pronounced “Oodadrow.”
You could easily add depth to Drow society by developing other Drow cities with different but not far off cultures.
Also, I don't think the argument "it's easier fan new fans to understand" is a good one. When you come into a fandom that's been going for decades you have to accept there's gonna be a lot of lore to absorb for most of it. If you get into Warhammer 40k and wanna learn everything about Eldars, you're gonna have a lot to look at, you can't retcon "simplier" stuff just so it's easier to "know everything"
However, while 5e hasn't officially supported Greyhawk
Except that Mordenkainen is a Greyhawk character as are Tasha the Grinning Mage and Iggwilv. And Saltmarsh is set in Keoland....
And they still are.
It's the same trope as, say, Moorcock's Eternal Champion stuff.
Actually, Elric and his cronies has been way more lucky than the above, the first edition Deities and Demigods did them good justice, and they were then left totally unsullied by further editions, and (thanks for one to copyrights) not stolen to be absorbed in the huge black pudding that are the FR... :)
Viewing it as theft is exactly where y'all lose me. Nothing got "stolen".
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
How about "transferred without the original author's permission or even willingness" ?
I mean, Gygax destroyed Greyhawk and the entirety of Oerth in the end, so if that's your standard then WoTC seems to be doing a good job of honoring his wishes by not reviving it.
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Seriously though, if you think the official FR is trash and want to play in Greyhawk instead with OG versions of Mordenkainen and the drow... go ahead.
No one's stopping you, and the existence of the very site we're having this discussion on is encouraging you to do it.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The O.G. Greyhawk Drow will bring their barber corps with them to get all these new school Drow set right with their mustaches and hairlines.
This. Greyhawk Drow barber corps in fat jammers blackening the skies on planet after planet and crystal sphere after crystal sphere, unifying drow all around the metaverse with glorious Tony Iommi 'staches - this will surely be the overarching plot of my next Spelljammer campaign.
I think the real issue is that this simply comes off as pandering, as though the criticism of WOTC over racial issues (classic projection IMHO) will simply go away if they institute this change much like taking away the -1 from Orc intelligence. Pretty soon every race is simply going to be the same with zero flavor. Maybe overreacting, but this certainly sounds as a ham-handed attempt to address negative PR. They would have been more effective with a subtle approach to changing lore.
Personally, I love playing a good drow Cleric of Eilistraee. It is very similar to being a refugee from Nazi Germany and trying whatever you can to save your homeland or as many of those individuals that you can while fighting an evil regime.
I think the real issue is that this simply comes off as pandering, as though the criticism of WOTC over racial issues (classic projection IMHO) will simply go away if they institute this change much like taking away the -1 from Orc intelligence. Pretty soon every race is simply going to be the same with zero flavor. Maybe overreacting, but this certainly sounds as a ham-handed attempt to address negative PR. They would have been more effective with a subtle approach to changing lore.
I agree. Though I don't thing the people they're pandering to (and perhaps some amongst their own) would understand and be satisfied with subtle approach. For many, either it's in your face or it doesn't matter.
I mean, Gygax destroyed Greyhawk and the entirety of Oerth in the end, so if that's your standard then WoTC seems to be doing a good job of honoring his wishes by not reviving it.
But did he destroy it because he always planned for that with the Gord the Rogue series or did he destroy it because he had lost control of it (and was being sued by TSR)?
much like taking away the -1 from Orc intelligence. Pretty soon every race is simply going to be the same with zero flavor.
This argument is absurd. Every race in 5E has traits that distinguish them in far more interesting ways than basic stat mods -- the stat mods were essentially meaningless anyway, because players just negated them when assigning rolls or numbers.
If in your game it's really important to you for some reason that some races be weaker or dumber than others, put a hard cap on their STR or INT, not a piffling -1 on the initial stat.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I mean, Gygax destroyed Greyhawk and the entirety of Oerth in the end, so if that's your standard then WoTC seems to be doing a good job of honoring his wishes by not reviving it.
But did he destroy it because he always planned for that with the Gord the Rogue series or did he destroy it because he had lost control of it (and was being sued by TSR)?
The Word of Gygax, which seems very important to some people here, is that Oerth was destroyed.
Who are you, as a mere mortal, to question why?
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
much like taking away the -1 from Orc intelligence. Pretty soon every race is simply going to be the same with zero flavor.
This argument is absurd. Every race in 5E has traits that distinguish them in far more interesting ways than basic stat mods -- the stat mods were essentially meaningless anyway, because players just negated them when assigning rolls or numbers.
If in your game it's really important to you for some reason that some races be weaker or dumber than others, put a hard cap on their STR or INT, not a piffling -1 on the initial stat.
The main problem with this is the fact that the elves and humans are not races. They are species. And as the cheetah is faster than the lion, the lion is stronger than the cheetah. Gnomes are smarter. Orcs are stronger.
And now here comes the half-elf argument. But you can breed a lion and a tiger and the offspring will be the halfbreed.
It was never about race and orcs are simply dumber than humans.
The Word of Gygax, which seems very important to some people here, is that Oerth was destroyed.
Who are you, as a mere mortal, to question why?
And yet we have the Infinite Oerths like Aerth, Yarth etc. And Gygax contributed to the fan Oerth Journal.
I'll leave it to you, then, to puzzle out how Infinite Oerths would make your earlier complaint about something being "counter to ACTUAL lore" fairly moot.
If there's One True Oerth, it went boom.
If there's not...
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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We laugh, but I would not be surprised if when these differing Drow come into contact with their different stories of the before times, arguments will break down to "No, you're the renegade faction who disappeared from the true path!" exclamations with finger pointing. Fortunately the O.G. Drow will show up in Spelljammers with not cases but Casks of White Claw for everyone to just chill out until they reach the White Lodge. The O.G. Greyhawk Drow will bring their barber corps with them to get all these new school Drow set right with their mustaches and hairlines.
Also wondering whether it's not "you da Drow" but a shorter u, and an elogated consonant for "udda Drow", which means the new Drow are othering the under dark Drow.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Menotadrow.
Yeah, it is very silly.
Except that Mordenkainen is a Greyhawk character as are Tasha the Grinning Mage and Iggwilv. And Saltmarsh is set in Keoland....
I still think overall this is a good thing, especially if you don’t know much about the drow, which a lot of new fans don’t. Gives drow society more depth by a factor of three, even if the new societies are just enclaves. And it’s probably pronounced “Oodadrow.”
Did Drow really used to have mustaches back then? I’ve never seen an elf with a mustache.
Thanks.
And they still are.
It's the same trope as, say, Moorcock's Eternal Champion stuff.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You could easily add depth to Drow society by developing other Drow cities with different but not far off cultures.
Also, I don't think the argument "it's easier fan new fans to understand" is a good one. When you come into a fandom that's been going for decades you have to accept there's gonna be a lot of lore to absorb for most of it. If you get into Warhammer 40k and wanna learn everything about Eldars, you're gonna have a lot to look at, you can't retcon "simplier" stuff just so it's easier to "know everything"
Viewing it as theft is exactly where y'all lose me. Nothing got "stolen".
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I mean, Gygax destroyed Greyhawk and the entirety of Oerth in the end, so if that's your standard then WoTC seems to be doing a good job of honoring his wishes by not reviving it.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Seriously though, if you think the official FR is trash and want to play in Greyhawk instead with OG versions of Mordenkainen and the drow... go ahead.
No one's stopping you, and the existence of the very site we're having this discussion on is encouraging you to do it.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This. Greyhawk Drow barber corps in fat jammers blackening the skies on planet after planet and crystal sphere after crystal sphere, unifying drow all around the metaverse with glorious Tony Iommi 'staches - this will surely be the overarching plot of my next Spelljammer campaign.
I think the real issue is that this simply comes off as pandering, as though the criticism of WOTC over racial issues (classic projection IMHO) will simply go away if they institute this change much like taking away the -1 from Orc intelligence. Pretty soon every race is simply going to be the same with zero flavor. Maybe overreacting, but this certainly sounds as a ham-handed attempt to address negative PR. They would have been more effective with a subtle approach to changing lore.
Personally, I love playing a good drow Cleric of Eilistraee. It is very similar to being a refugee from Nazi Germany and trying whatever you can to save your homeland or as many of those individuals that you can while fighting an evil regime.
I agree. Though I don't thing the people they're pandering to (and perhaps some amongst their own) would understand and be satisfied with subtle approach. For many, either it's in your face or it doesn't matter.
But did he destroy it because he always planned for that with the Gord the Rogue series or did he destroy it because he had lost control of it (and was being sued by TSR)?
This argument is absurd. Every race in 5E has traits that distinguish them in far more interesting ways than basic stat mods -- the stat mods were essentially meaningless anyway, because players just negated them when assigning rolls or numbers.
If in your game it's really important to you for some reason that some races be weaker or dumber than others, put a hard cap on their STR or INT, not a piffling -1 on the initial stat.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The Word of Gygax, which seems very important to some people here, is that Oerth was destroyed.
Who are you, as a mere mortal, to question why?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
And yet we have the Infinite Oerths like Aerth, Yarth etc. And Gygax contributed to the fan Oerth Journal.
The main problem with this is the fact that the elves and humans are not races. They are species. And as the cheetah is faster than the lion, the lion is stronger than the cheetah. Gnomes are smarter. Orcs are stronger.
And now here comes the half-elf argument. But you can breed a lion and a tiger and the offspring will be the halfbreed.
It was never about race and orcs are simply dumber than humans.
I'll leave it to you, then, to puzzle out how Infinite Oerths would make your earlier complaint about something being "counter to ACTUAL lore" fairly moot.
If there's One True Oerth, it went boom.
If there's not...
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)