So I am playing CoS Rogue 3 Swashbuckler dex 18, int 17. I plan Rogue5/Artificer 3/Bladesinger 2. Taking Artificer 1 next for Shield proficiency, Arcane Weapon, Absorb Elements, Booming Blade, Message. Gives AC 18, BB and extra D6 with Arcane weapon for 1 hr. So 1 attack per turn 4d6. With BB after I back up.. Then Bladesinger 1 & 2, gives shield and +3 to AC when singing. Next is Rogue to 5 3d6 sneak, 1d6 weapon, 1d6 Arcane Weapon, 1d8 BB: back-up and 2d8 BB if they move. Finally Artifice 3 Armorer, Guardian Armor gives enemy I hit disadvantage on attacks to others. Infuse shield for +1 is AC 22. Goggles of Darksight as I am halfling without Darksight. Total Damage: 5d6+4 +1d8: weapon 1d6, sneak attack 3d6, 1d8 BB, 1d6 Arcane Weapon, AC 22/27 with shield. Disadvantage to my enemy against attacking others and BB if they move to me, another 2d8. Thoughts?
Sorry. Guardian armourer thunder gauntlets, which give opponents disadvantage on attacks on targets other than you, count as simple weapons and can't be used with sneak attack which only works with finesse or ranged weapons. Booming Blade is great if your opponent can only attack you but, without using the thunder gauntlets, if you stepped back, your opponent would only need to move if your allies had not moved into melee attack range or if the opponent didn't have a viable ranged attack.
Can a rogue/monk use Sneak Attack with unarmed strikes?
The Sneak Attack feature works with a weapon that has the finesse or ranged property. An unarmed strike isn’t a weapon, so it doesn’t qualify. In contrast, a rogue/ monk can use Sneak Attack with a monk weapon, such as a shortsword or a dagger, that has one of the required properties.
Up to you if you want to check with your DM whether your artificer enabled gauntlets can homebrew add this property.
I think Artificer is kind of a waste in this build. The extra armor and shield is nice, but you're missing a lot of features by splitting your character up into this complicated multiclass. Wizard gives you all the spells that you're planning to utilize from Artificer, then between Bladesong and basic Studded Leather Armor you'll have an AC of 17, which you can bump to 22 when needed by using the Shield spell.
Alternatively, you could also drop Rogue from this build. Sneak Attack is nice and all, but if you took Armorer or Bladesinger a few levels higher you could just get Extra Attack.
Artificer is a good starting class for spell casters due to its con save proficiency. I think its good if swaps like this can be retconned but that's down to the DM. Battle smith might be especially good for a halfling or gnome rogue and you have a mount to make up for slow speed and an ally to enable sneak attack. Artilerist might also work. As TransmographierDDS indicated, the armour of the armourer overlaps with the bladesinging of the bladesinger.
Thanks! So the infiltrator armor with the ranged lightning attack would work? And get an extra d6 for every following attack?
The ranged attack does qualify as a ranged weapon for sneak attack. It doesn't count as a melee weapon for Booming Blade. I'll have to echo the thoughts about dropping one of Rogue or Artificer from the build (or possibly wizard if you want to switch gears and go ranged with the infiltrator). It's getting pretty complicated and you are starting to spread yourself thin with the planned build. You'll be level 10 by the time that you get to your 5/3/2 split and you'll have exactly 1 ASI to show for it. You could potentially go another 3 levels without picking up another ASI if you went 2 rogue and 1 wizard after. Rogue actually picks up an extra ASI at 10th, which means you'd have 1 ASI instead of the 3 you would have as a straight rogue.
ASIs aren't the end all, be all of the game, but they do represent significant power bumps and are thus a decent gauge for how thin your build is spreading itself. Any multiclass that forgoes multiple ASIs will want to bring back a lot of increased ability through features. Keep that in mind when planning these things out and compare your performance with the MC against the performance against the straight build, or, in this case, the simpler MC versus the more complex. Sometimes you can pick up a feat that will approximate much of what you would like to accomplish at a lower cost to progression.
Thank you for the thoughts. I was not worried about ASI much as we should be done there with CoS.
That's fine, as I said, it's just a gauge to use as a barometer. Your stats are already pretty high, so I can understand the desire to broaden the scope. Just be aware that you'll be bringing a lot of attention your way, and Strahd has been known to target weaknesses. What do those look like for you? What other strengths do your party members bring to the table?
Also, note that shield proficiency, infused shield and bladesinging don't mix. You'll be getting a net zero increase in AC when bladesinging. The medium armor restriction for bladesong will be less of a burden, though you'll need the full +5 mod bonus from dexterity for Studded Leather to equal Half Plate, though it will be equal to Breastplate with only the +4 mod from dexterity. Depending on how you feel about those aspects, perhaps something like abjuration would be better or swapping wizard for rogue or Artificer levels.
This is part of the reason why I was suggesting limiting the build to one multiclass, since adding additional classes means more rules interactions that may not work as intended.
What’s your charisma? Just curious. If you are already rogue 3 swashbuckler you can add CHA to initiative. Bladesinger gives you the bump to AC so you don’t need artificer for armor proficiency since medium and heavy are wasted with bladesong. And you can keep on BB when you get extra attack at level 6 Bladesinger.
Just not sure if artificer is worth it unless you have a concept you are going for
What’s your charisma? Just curious. If you are already rogue 3 swashbuckler you can add CHA to initiative. Bladesinger gives you the bump to AC so you don’t need artificer for armor proficiency since medium and heavy are wasted with bladesong. And you can keep on BB when you get extra attack at level 6 Bladesinger.
Just not sure if artificer is worth it unless you have a concept you are going for
This is something I'd considered as well, but they'd have to go rogue 4/ bladesinger 6 with the split they'd looked at and possibly pushing rogue 4 to the 10th character level to get more time out of the extra attack. May not be worth it as the payoff if that's all they're after, but could still be interesting.
It does seem like their trying to get some "tanking" ability in with the thunder gauntlet angle coupled with the free "disengage" from swashbuckler and BB. Going fighter 3 would net the Cavalier's unwavering mark, but it only works if they stay within 5 ft of the creature. I'm having a hard time thinking of other effects that aren't tied to a barbarian that do the same thing.
If the OP is set on the prescribed build, changing infused shield for infused armor still nets that +1 even though they can't use the shield and use Bladesong at the same time. If they already have magical armor, they could infuse another character's armor or go with Boots of the Winding Path or something else.
So I am playing CoS Rogue 3 Swashbuckler dex 18, int 17. I plan Rogue5/Artificer 3/Bladesinger 2. Taking Artificer 1 next for Shield proficiency, Arcane Weapon, Absorb Elements, Booming Blade, Message.
What's Arcane Weapon?
Gives AC 18, BB and extra D6 with Arcane weapon for 1 hr.
That's impossible with Artificer 1. The only spells that do that at level 1 are Hex and Hunter's Mark, both of which attach to a specific target and neither of which are Artificer spells.
So 1 attack per turn 4d6.
I don't know where the 4th die is coming from, but you should presumably be using a rapier. Unless you're two weapon fighting, but it doesn't sound like you are. So 1d8 (weapon) + 2d6 (sneak).
With BB after I back up..
You mean before you back up, I assume.
Then Bladesinger 1 & 2, gives shield and +3 to AC when singing. Next is Rogue to 5 3d6 sneak, 1d6 weapon, 1d6 Arcane Weapon, 1d8 BB: back-up and 2d8 BB if they move. Finally Artifice 3 Armorer, Guardian Armor gives enemy I hit disadvantage on attacks to others. Infuse shield for +1 is AC 22. Goggles of Darksight as I am halfling without Darksight. Total Damage: 5d6+4 +1d8: weapon 1d6, sneak attack 3d6, 1d8 BB, 1d6 Arcane Weapon, AC 22/27 with shield. Disadvantage to my enemy against attacking others and BB if they move to me, another 2d8. Thoughts?
I'm unbelievably curious about your statline, since you sound like a low-CHA low-CON Swashbuckler. And I remain suspicious you've invented a spell and haven't told us about your homebrew. But I will say this whole build doesn't seem to use its spell slots for much, so I would suggest switching from Armorer to Artillerist. The Eldritch Cannon in Protector mode will do a very credible job of helping to keep you alive, while you can use the Ballista mode to encourage BB movement.
I'd suggest looking at Rogue/Armorer, personally... I know you already have swashbuckler picked, but if you haven't started play yet, take a hard look at Rogue - Inquisitive / Armorer - Infiltrator - you get more bang for your buck out of Int, for one thing. It's much less MAD than what you proposed above.
I'm unbelievably curious about your statline, since you sound like a low-CHA low-CON Swashbuckler. And I remain suspicious you've invented a spell and haven't told us about your homebrew. But I will say this whole build doesn't seem to use its spell slots for much, so I would suggest switching from Armorer to Artillerist. The Eldritch Cannon in Protector mode will do a very credible job of helping to keep you alive, while you can use the Ballista mode to encourage BB movement.
low-CHA Swashbuckler is alright, a level 5 swashbuckler only uses CHA for initiative.
Arcane Weapon is a UA spell that (presumably) got dropped, basically it was the artificer's version of Hunter's Mark, granted +d6 damage and the secondary ability was being able to choose the damage type (fire, lighting, cold, some other stuff I forgot). Since it's UA (and likely dropped UA as well) it's very DM-dependent (esp with the whole granting Guardian glvoes the finesse property).
If your DM doesn't go with the above (which is perfectly reasonable), then yeah Artillerist might be a better choice. Although you probably should consider doing a duo-class like the other user have suggested rather than a tri-class (either 4 rogue/artificer 6 bladesinger, or 7 rogue/3 artificer).
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Artificer is a good starting class for spell casters due to its con save proficiency. I think its good if swaps like this can be retconned but that's down to the DM. Battle smith might be especially good for a halfling or gnome rogue and you have a mount to make up for slow speed and an ally to enable sneak attack. Artilerist might also work. As TransmographierDDS indicated, the armour of the armourer overlaps with the bladesinging of the bladesinger.
Mechanically, starting as an artificer for Con prof takes away from some rogue profs while - as others started - conflicting with the bladesinger armour issues. At the same time, being already available in the bladesong Con bonus.
Who is the character? What is their group role? So far it's sounds like OP is trying to be a semi-charismatic, spell-casting, damage dealing, mobile, multi-method tank. I suggest narrowing your focus.
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So I am playing CoS Rogue 3 Swashbuckler dex 18, int 17. I plan Rogue5/Artificer 3/Bladesinger 2. Taking Artificer 1 next for Shield proficiency, Arcane Weapon, Absorb Elements, Booming Blade, Message. Gives AC 18, BB and extra D6 with Arcane weapon for 1 hr. So 1 attack per turn 4d6. With BB after I back up.. Then Bladesinger 1 & 2, gives shield and +3 to AC when singing. Next is Rogue to 5 3d6 sneak, 1d6 weapon, 1d6 Arcane Weapon, 1d8 BB: back-up and 2d8 BB if they move. Finally Artifice 3 Armorer, Guardian Armor gives enemy I hit disadvantage on attacks to others. Infuse shield for +1 is AC 22. Goggles of Darksight as I am halfling without Darksight. Total Damage: 5d6+4 +1d8: weapon 1d6, sneak attack 3d6, 1d8 BB, 1d6 Arcane Weapon, AC 22/27 with shield. Disadvantage to my enemy against attacking others and BB if they move to me, another 2d8. Thoughts?
Sorry.
Guardian armourer thunder gauntlets, which give opponents disadvantage on attacks on targets other than you, count as simple weapons and can't be used with sneak attack which only works with finesse or ranged weapons.
Booming Blade is great if your opponent can only attack you but, without using the thunder gauntlets, if you stepped back, your opponent would only need to move if your allies had not moved into melee attack range or if the opponent didn't have a viable ranged attack.
SAC:
Can a rogue/monk use Sneak Attack with unarmed strikes?
The Sneak Attack feature works with a weapon that has the finesse or ranged property. An unarmed strike isn’t a weapon, so it doesn’t qualify. In contrast, a rogue/ monk can use Sneak Attack with a monk weapon, such as a shortsword or a dagger, that has one of the required properties.
Up to you if you want to check with your DM whether your artificer enabled gauntlets can homebrew add this property.
Thanks! So the infiltrator armor with the ranged lightning attack would work? And get an extra d6 for every following attack?
I think Artificer is kind of a waste in this build. The extra armor and shield is nice, but you're missing a lot of features by splitting your character up into this complicated multiclass. Wizard gives you all the spells that you're planning to utilize from Artificer, then between Bladesong and basic Studded Leather Armor you'll have an AC of 17, which you can bump to 22 when needed by using the Shield spell.
Alternatively, you could also drop Rogue from this build. Sneak Attack is nice and all, but if you took Armorer or Bladesinger a few levels higher you could just get Extra Attack.
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Artificer is a good starting class for spell casters due to its con save proficiency. I think its good if swaps like this can be retconned but that's down to the DM.
Battle smith might be especially good for a halfling or gnome rogue and you have a mount to make up for slow speed and an ally to enable sneak attack. Artilerist might also work. As TransmographierDDS indicated, the armour of the armourer overlaps with the bladesinging of the bladesinger.
The ranged attack does qualify as a ranged weapon for sneak attack. It doesn't count as a melee weapon for Booming Blade. I'll have to echo the thoughts about dropping one of Rogue or Artificer from the build (or possibly wizard if you want to switch gears and go ranged with the infiltrator). It's getting pretty complicated and you are starting to spread yourself thin with the planned build. You'll be level 10 by the time that you get to your 5/3/2 split and you'll have exactly 1 ASI to show for it. You could potentially go another 3 levels without picking up another ASI if you went 2 rogue and 1 wizard after. Rogue actually picks up an extra ASI at 10th, which means you'd have 1 ASI instead of the 3 you would have as a straight rogue.
ASIs aren't the end all, be all of the game, but they do represent significant power bumps and are thus a decent gauge for how thin your build is spreading itself. Any multiclass that forgoes multiple ASIs will want to bring back a lot of increased ability through features. Keep that in mind when planning these things out and compare your performance with the MC against the performance against the straight build, or, in this case, the simpler MC versus the more complex. Sometimes you can pick up a feat that will approximate much of what you would like to accomplish at a lower cost to progression.
Thank you for the thoughts. I was not worried about ASI much as we should be done there with CoS.
That's fine, as I said, it's just a gauge to use as a barometer. Your stats are already pretty high, so I can understand the desire to broaden the scope. Just be aware that you'll be bringing a lot of attention your way, and Strahd has been known to target weaknesses. What do those look like for you? What other strengths do your party members bring to the table?
Also, note that shield proficiency, infused shield and bladesinging don't mix. You'll be getting a net zero increase in AC when bladesinging. The medium armor restriction for bladesong will be less of a burden, though you'll need the full +5 mod bonus from dexterity for Studded Leather to equal Half Plate, though it will be equal to Breastplate with only the +4 mod from dexterity. Depending on how you feel about those aspects, perhaps something like abjuration would be better or swapping wizard for rogue or Artificer levels.
This is part of the reason why I was suggesting limiting the build to one multiclass, since adding additional classes means more rules interactions that may not work as intended.
What’s your charisma? Just curious. If you are already rogue 3 swashbuckler you can add CHA to initiative. Bladesinger gives you the bump to AC so you don’t need artificer for armor proficiency since medium and heavy are wasted with bladesong. And you can keep on BB when you get extra attack at level 6 Bladesinger.
Just not sure if artificer is worth it unless you have a concept you are going for
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This is something I'd considered as well, but they'd have to go rogue 4/ bladesinger 6 with the split they'd looked at and possibly pushing rogue 4 to the 10th character level to get more time out of the extra attack. May not be worth it as the payoff if that's all they're after, but could still be interesting.
It does seem like their trying to get some "tanking" ability in with the thunder gauntlet angle coupled with the free "disengage" from swashbuckler and BB. Going fighter 3 would net the Cavalier's unwavering mark, but it only works if they stay within 5 ft of the creature. I'm having a hard time thinking of other effects that aren't tied to a barbarian that do the same thing.
If the OP is set on the prescribed build, changing infused shield for infused armor still nets that +1 even though they can't use the shield and use Bladesong at the same time. If they already have magical armor, they could infuse another character's armor or go with Boots of the Winding Path or something else.
What's Arcane Weapon?
That's impossible with Artificer 1. The only spells that do that at level 1 are Hex and Hunter's Mark, both of which attach to a specific target and neither of which are Artificer spells.
I don't know where the 4th die is coming from, but you should presumably be using a rapier. Unless you're two weapon fighting, but it doesn't sound like you are. So 1d8 (weapon) + 2d6 (sneak).
You mean before you back up, I assume.
I'm unbelievably curious about your statline, since you sound like a low-CHA low-CON Swashbuckler. And I remain suspicious you've invented a spell and haven't told us about your homebrew. But I will say this whole build doesn't seem to use its spell slots for much, so I would suggest switching from Armorer to Artillerist. The Eldritch Cannon in Protector mode will do a very credible job of helping to keep you alive, while you can use the Ballista mode to encourage BB movement.
I'd suggest looking at Rogue/Armorer, personally... I know you already have swashbuckler picked, but if you haven't started play yet, take a hard look at Rogue - Inquisitive / Armorer - Infiltrator - you get more bang for your buck out of Int, for one thing. It's much less MAD than what you proposed above.
low-CHA Swashbuckler is alright, a level 5 swashbuckler only uses CHA for initiative.
Arcane Weapon is a UA spell that (presumably) got dropped, basically it was the artificer's version of Hunter's Mark, granted +d6 damage and the secondary ability was being able to choose the damage type (fire, lighting, cold, some other stuff I forgot). Since it's UA (and likely dropped UA as well) it's very DM-dependent (esp with the whole granting Guardian glvoes the finesse property).
If your DM doesn't go with the above (which is perfectly reasonable), then yeah Artillerist might be a better choice. Although you probably should consider doing a duo-class like the other user have suggested rather than a tri-class (either 4 rogue/artificer 6 bladesinger, or 7 rogue/3 artificer).
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Mechanically, starting as an artificer for Con prof takes away from some rogue profs while - as others started - conflicting with the bladesinger armour issues. At the same time, being already available in the bladesong Con bonus.
Who is the character? What is their group role? So far it's sounds like OP is trying to be a semi-charismatic, spell-casting, damage dealing, mobile, multi-method tank. I suggest narrowing your focus.