5e dragons lack spells altogether, no? 3e dragons would be a more challenging question, but 5e dragons? No chance unless the proportion of dragons to humans is absurd, for action economy reasons. We've had discussions on this forum about how many 5e commoners it would take to bring down a dragon. It's not actually as many as you'd expect, and they're only using longbows and the ready action. Modern weaponry requires less skill to use than a longbow, and can make commoners quite deadly.
Then there's also the fact that technology doesn't stay constant. The more humans learn about dragon psychology and physiology, the more we could tailor our strategies and direct our research into producing effective weaponry. How long would it take human biotech firms to create a dragon-specific virus, for instance? Drones that can fly faster than dragons and autonomously target them? Weapons in space that are beyond the reach of air-breathing dragons?
Lets look at this from an economical perspective. An adult dragon hoard would be roughly 64,000 gp = 1,280 pounds of gold. That is roughly $45 million at today's rates. A dragon can invest in illegal risky investments because it has the muscle to enforce its contracts. So roughly 20% rate of return per year for $9 million profit. Likely in a tax free location. And long lived dragons do not have to worry about inheritance taxes. That is sufficient to buy a substantial business, an illegal organization, and/or politicians.
Depends. I feel that you're implicitly assuming that the price of gold is fixed in terms of major currencies. If dragon hoards suddenly popped up on earth, expanding the world's (relatively small) supply of gold, then you could easily see prices collapse. That's precisely what happened when the Americas were discovered, and the mined metals made their way back to Eurasia. Not to mention that if advanced countries wanted to economically destroy this sort of dragon, we could simply flood markets with the stores of gold in Fort Knox and the NY Federal Reserve Bank (which collectively hold somewhere north of 10% of the world's supply of gold, IIRC), with likely few consequences for those governments. Also a 20% net rate of return after taxes? If I were a dragon, I'd hope I'd be intelligent enough to diversify into a broad index fund and MAYBE get a 10% return p.a. if we're lucky. But even then, what are they investing in? No fewer than fifteen defense companies are represented in the S&P 500, so the dragon may be investing in its own destruction.
guys- you forgot we lost a war with birds- well, the Australians did! I think a dragon could take the world on!
True, but a) they were working with WW1-era tech and strategy, b) the humans suffered zero casualties, and c) emus are some real sons of *****es, way more ornery than even Tiamat herself.
5e dragons lack spells altogether, no? 3e dragons would be a more challenging question, but 5e dragons? No chance unless the proportion of dragons to humans is absurd, for action economy reasons. We've had discussions on this forum about how many 5e commoners it would take to bring down a dragon. It's not actually as many as you'd expect, and they're only using longbows and the ready action. Modern weaponry requires less skill to use than a longbow, and can make commoners quite deadly.
Then there's also the fact that technology doesn't stay constant. The more humans learn about dragon psychology and physiology, the more we could tailor our strategies and direct our research into producing effective weaponry. How long would it take human biotech firms to create a dragon-specific virus, for instance? Drones that can fly faster than dragons and autonomously target them? Weapons in space that are beyond the reach of air-breathing dragons?
We do have stats for an assault rifle, in rifle, automatic. It deals 2d8+ dexterity modifier. Also the fact that people are using commoner stats for soliders like guards and veterans don’t exist, so let’s assume that an average solder has a +4 dex modifier, so about 13 pricing damage from a single rifle, let’s say that they have a +3 proficiency.
a +7 won’t be enough to penetrate a adult dragon's scales half the time. Not to mention that a good amount of dragons can dig which is a much larger advantage than flying in the case of fighting humans, since we can’t really shoot through 20 feet worth of dirt and stone to hit a dragon that might be there.
No intelligent dragon is fighting in the middle of a desert against thousands of humans, it’s a massive numbers advantage and most dragons would get the hell out of this disadvantageous fight. A more likely scenario is that the humans use missiles to assault the dragons or they are forced to climb active volcanos, freezing blizzards or granny's village's lake where a invasion would cause some controversy.
5e dragons lack spells altogether, no? 3e dragons would be a more challenging question, but 5e dragons? No chance unless the proportion of dragons to humans is absurd, for action economy reasons. We've had discussions on this forum about how many 5e commoners it would take to bring down a dragon. It's not actually as many as you'd expect, and they're only using longbows and the ready action. Modern weaponry requires less skill to use than a longbow, and can make commoners quite deadly.
Then there's also the fact that technology doesn't stay constant. The more humans learn about dragon psychology and physiology, the more we could tailor our strategies and direct our research into producing effective weaponry. How long would it take human biotech firms to create a dragon-specific virus, for instance? Drones that can fly faster than dragons and autonomously target them? Weapons in space that are beyond the reach of air-breathing dragons?
We do have stats for an assault rifle, in rifle, automatic. It deals 2d8+ dexterity modifier. Also the fact that people are using commoner stats for soliders like guards and veterans don’t exist, so let’s assume that an average solder has a +4 dex modifier, so about 13 pricing damage from a single rifle, let’s say that they have a +3 proficiency.
a +7 won’t be enough to penetrate a adult dragon's scales half the time. Not to mention that a good amount of dragons can dig which is a much larger advantage than flying in the case of fighting humans, since we can’t really shoot through 20 feet worth of dirt and stone to hit a dragon that might be there.
No intelligent dragon is fighting in the middle of a desert against thousands of humans, it’s a massive numbers advantage and most dragons would get the hell out of this disadvantageous fight. A more likely scenario is that the humans use missiles to assault the dragons or they are forced to climb active volcanos, freezing blizzards or granny's village's lake where a invasion would cause some controversy.
I mean in an open fight, a +7 to hit against an AC of 19 (taking an adult red dragon, for instance) is excellent odds, especially if you have the numerical advantage, and especially with access to the help action. With rifles, you wouldn't even need that high of a human-dragon ratio to have the humans seriously threaten the dragon. But you're absolutely right, dragons won't sit around and become pin cushions. Burrowing is attractive, but a) it's slow, b) it won't work on solid rock or metal, and c) humans have had "bunker buster" munitions for somewhere around 80 years.
At the end of the day, technology is going to determine the outcome. I find the dragon-specific supervirus to be a very compelling argument. Dragons could also develop a technological advantage as well, but AFAIK the assignment is to consider dragons at the D&D tech level vs humanity with modern tech.
5e dragons lack spells altogether, no? 3e dragons would be a more challenging question, but 5e dragons? No chance unless the proportion of dragons to humans is absurd, for action economy reasons. We've had discussions on this forum about how many 5e commoners it would take to bring down a dragon. It's not actually as many as you'd expect, and they're only using longbows and the ready action. Modern weaponry requires less skill to use than a longbow, and can make commoners quite deadly.
Then there's also the fact that technology doesn't stay constant. The more humans learn about dragon psychology and physiology, the more we could tailor our strategies and direct our research into producing effective weaponry. How long would it take human biotech firms to create a dragon-specific virus, for instance? Drones that can fly faster than dragons and autonomously target them? Weapons in space that are beyond the reach of air-breathing dragons?
We do have stats for an assault rifle, in rifle, automatic. It deals 2d8+ dexterity modifier. Also the fact that people are using commoner stats for soliders like guards and veterans don’t exist, so let’s assume that an average solder has a +4 dex modifier, so about 13 pricing damage from a single rifle, let’s say that they have a +3 proficiency.
a +7 won’t be enough to penetrate a adult dragon's scales half the time. Not to mention that a good amount of dragons can dig which is a much larger advantage than flying in the case of fighting humans, since we can’t really shoot through 20 feet worth of dirt and stone to hit a dragon that might be there.
No intelligent dragon is fighting in the middle of a desert against thousands of humans, it’s a massive numbers advantage and most dragons would get the hell out of this disadvantageous fight. A more likely scenario is that the humans use missiles to assault the dragons or they are forced to climb active volcanos, freezing blizzards or granny's village's lake where a invasion would cause some controversy.
I mean in an open fight, a +7 to hit against an AC of 19 (taking an adult red dragon, for instance) is excellent odds, especially if you have the numerical advantage, and especially with access to the help action. With rifles, you wouldn't even need that high of a human-dragon ratio to have the humans seriously threaten the dragon. But you're absolutely right, dragons won't sit around and become pin cushions. Burrowing is attractive, but a) it's slow, b) it won't work on solid rock or metal, and c) humans have had "bunker buster" munitions for somewhere around 80 years.
At the end of the day, technology is going to determine the outcome. I find the dragon-specific supervirus to be a very compelling argument. Dragons could also develop a technological advantage as well, but AFAIK the assignment is to consider dragons at the D&D tech level vs humanity with modern tech.
Your right about how bunker busters would nullify all dragons in active combat, but against regular infantry and tanks, they have enough speed to burrow at least 10 feet under the ground, which would give them a temporary safe haven until bombs are called on their area. So at the very least, it’s fast enough to nullify a troop of men and allow the dragon to reposition itself.
If the dragons have time to make a lair that won’t get bombed to oblivion, they would have better odds. Especially brass and blue dragons, since their lair has effects that can blind people and affect large groups, which would be very useful for potential friendly fire, splitting them up and wiping them out safely.
At the end of the day, technology is going to determine the outcome. I find the dragon-specific supervirus to be a very compelling argument. Dragons could also develop a technological advantage as well, but AFAIK the assignment is to consider dragons at the D&D tech level vs humanity with modern tech.
Designing a virus de novo is still far out of our capabilities, so we'd have to hope dragons are susceptible to existing reptile viruses. Dragons are unlikely to develop technology because of their personalities - they are largely solitary and arrogant creatures - which are both significant obstructions to technological development.
5e dragons lack spells altogether, no? 3e dragons would be a more challenging question, but 5e dragons? No chance unless the proportion of dragons to humans is absurd, for action economy reasons.
Dragons can be spellcasters in 5e. And most veterans of prior editions keep them as such. Option from the monster manual itself:
A young or older dragon can innately cast a number of spells equal to its Charisma modifier. Each spell can be cast once per day, requiring no material components, and the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s challenge rating (rounded down). The dragon’s bonus to hit with spell attacks is equal to its proficiency bonus + its Charisma bonus. The dragon’s spell save DC equals 8 + its proficiency bonus + its Charisma modifier.
That might not be as much rare spellcasting power as a high level wizard or whatever when they're young. But it's actually pretty potent, all the same, especially as they get adult+ Eg. An adult gold dragon could then cast 7 different spells, each once per day, up to 5th level. DC of 21. And that's just an adult. An ancient one is 9 different spells, up to 8th level each! And his save DC is 24. But greatwyrms? Truly terrifying with 10 spells each up to 9th level, DC of 26.
They're nothing to scoff at.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
5e dragons lack spells altogether, no? 3e dragons would be a more challenging question, but 5e dragons? No chance unless the proportion of dragons to humans is absurd, for action economy reasons.
Dragons can be spellcasters in 5e. And most veterans of prior editions keep them as such. Option from the monster manual itself:
A young or older dragon can innately cast a number of spells equal to its Charisma modifier. Each spell can be cast once per day, requiring no material components, and the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s challenge rating (rounded down). The dragon’s bonus to hit with spell attacks is equal to its proficiency bonus + its Charisma bonus. The dragon’s spell save DC equals 8 + its proficiency bonus + its Charisma modifier.
That might not be as much rare spellcasting power as a high level wizard or whatever when they're young. But it's actually pretty potent, all the same, especially as they get adult+ Eg. An adult gold dragon could then cast 7 different spells, each once per day, up to 5th level. DC of 21. And that's just an adult. An ancient one is 9 different spells, up to 8th level each! And his save DC is 24. But greatwyrms? Truly terrifying with 10 spells each up to 9th level, DC of 26.
They're nothing to scoff at.
I forgot about that variant rule years ago. Thanks for the reminder. The question then becomes pretty complicated. The spell choices of the dragons will make a huge difference. Let's say that the modal dragon is somewhere around adult-aged. As I see it, the most useful 5th-level spells for these sort of scenarios are dominate person, geas, modify memory, and things of that nature. With spellcasting dragons, would humans be able to develop tools to detect or inhibit magic?
My view up to this point is that the outcome comes down to the relative share of humans and dragons and the pace of human technological progress. Further, the age and spellcasting profile of the dragon population matters. I'd assume that most dragons are in the young-adult age category, that most cannot cast spells, and that there are fewer dragons than humans as tends to be the case with advanced species.
As a side note, there was an article in Dragon #258 that discussed battles between magic users and advanced technology that you all may find interesting.
What hasn't been said yet is that dragons are very intelligent creatures. They are unlikely to just run straight into a battle against nuclear warheads, tanks, machine guns, thousands of soldiers, etc.
Many of them are just as intelligent as humans (some even smarter), so its a good possibility that they will find a way to get their hands on some fancy weapons. Also, I can think of at least three politicians who might be willing to sell weapons to a dragon and make alliances with one.
Still though, I feel that if humanity got its act together we might have a chance of defeating a dragon.
I am sorry but the logical answer is to this question is that the dragons lose. They simply cannot match againts modern technology and sheer numbers.
This whole thread feels like the "A Gorilla vs 100 Humans" argument, yes a Gorilla is very strong but it cannot defeate 100 humans, it would get overwhelmed and beaten to death.
Same with dragons, they are very powerful and smart beings but they are no match againts a modern civillizations with billions of inhabitants.
OP, I think you should just lower Humanities tech level, in our modern age of the 2020's we have experimental rail guns, suicide drones and literal laser weapons. Just lower Humanities tech level to the 1910's or 1920's. The main reason why Dragons lose is that they would absoloutly get overwhelmed by sheer numbers combined with our socities ability to mass produce and arm said sheer numbers with weapons that can kill them from miles away. Just set your world in a timeframe where society feels modern but still is not capable of wielding such powerful weapons, is incapable of mass producing them and their numbers are still quite limited.
I am sorry but the logical answer is to this question is that the dragons lose. They simply cannot match againts modern technology and sheer numbers.
This whole thread feels like the "A Gorilla vs 100 Humans" argument, yes a Gorilla is very strong but it cannot defeate 100 humans, it would get overwhelmed and beaten to death.
Same with dragons, they are very powerful and smart beings but they are no match againts a modern civillizations with billions of inhabitants.
OP, I think you should just lower Humanities tech level, in our modern age of the 2020's we have experimental rail guns, suicide drones and literal laser weapons. Just lower Humanities tech level to the 1910's or 1920's. The main reason why Dragons lose is that they would absoloutly get overwhelmed by sheer numbers combined with our socities ability to mass produce and arm said sheer numbers with weapons that can kill them from miles away. Just set your world in a timeframe where society feels modern but still is not capable of wielding such powerful weapons, is incapable of mass producing them and their numbers are still quite limited.
It is a long thread and you probably didn't read all of it there is also no agreement of how many dragon, of what type against however as Cluckatrice said in the last post before yours dragons are intelligent and would not run straight into battle against nuclear weapons, tanks etc.
Most of the more powerful dragons have more charisma than any human and they are also able to take human form (and more intelligent than most humans). A powerful dragon could pose as a human and convince others that he should lead them and (say) become president of the USA. It could then convince those under it that other humans are a threat to their way of life and need to be destroyed. In such circumstances it would be quite plausable that humans are either destroyed or become slaves of the dragons.
I don't think he or she really can. Why? Because Modern Beuracracy is a mess, you have hundereds of conflicting interest groups, politicians and govermant workers. This is why most govermant concpiracies fall flat on their face, there are just so many factors you need to account for it all unrevals by itself. Even the smartest person cannot handle the sheer amount of red tape, political intrigue and interest groups that can support and oppose them on a whim. Chances are that Elder Dragon won't even make it to the polls because one politican just screwed over another one that had nothing to do with him and brought down his entire campaign on the side, its a mess.
TLDR : Even the smartest guy cannot fight back againts the tide of Clown World. The Super Genius that takes of everything only happens in movies for a reason XD
Logically it would make more sense if the dragons moved to take over third world countries instead... third world countries that are known for being influenced by dozens of different factions and barely being stable...
Ryan Mcbeth (who's just a youtuber, but that doesn't stop him being right) stated that modern wars are won by the side that controls the electromagnetic spectrum. Radar and missile range defeats anything dragons were designed to be able to handle. There's truly nothing else that really matters: Range and scale will defeat everything, even time stop, wish, teleport. It just doesn't impact the outcome. Dragons might be able to run, avoid combat - but there's no imaginable way in which they win.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Ryan Mcbeth (who's just a youtuber, but that doesn't stop him being right) stated that modern wars are won by the side that controls the electromagnetic spectrum. Radar and missile range defeats anything dragons were designed to be able to handle. There's truly nothing else that really matters: Range and scale will defeat everything, even time stop, wish, teleport. It just doesn't impact the outcome. Dragons might be able to run, avoid combat - but there's no imaginable way in which they win.
I wouldn’t be giving the dragons Wish any time soon…
I wouldn’t be giving the dragons Wish any time soon…
To be 100% absolutely honest and truthful, I haven't run a dragon since editions were something with 3, and back then they were sorcerers and could absolutely have wish if they so desired (provided they were old enough, and the right color and so on).
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Could the Dragons even perform magic in a world where magic doesn't exist? Can you perform "Wish" in a world were on an fundemental level the force that lets you do so is not there? I say modern humans win mainly because our world is not the world of D&D.
It is more likely that Dragons would recognize this and rather utilize the resources a modern world can provide rather than try to outright conquer it and take a risk that they don't have to. Imagine a dragon just opening a portal, getting a fake ID Card and just staying in an Hilton Hotel for a few days.
I feel like the topic is too vague, is it the entirety of human civilisation or is it like a nation such as America? Because that’s like saying who would win, The entire planet of Toril vs every dragon, a fairer assessment would be like a specific continent if other nations did not butt in.
I feel like the topic is too vague, is it the entirety of human civilisation or is it like a nation such as America? Because that’s like saying who would win, The entire planet of Toril vs every dragon, a fairer assessment would be like a specific continent if other nations did not butt in.
I think it's fair to say that if it's all dragons on one side, it's all humans on the other. If you scale it down, it doesn't really get any better until you reach nations like Luxemburg vs 1 dragon. Not a bad word against the Luxemburgians, but military might is not their strong suit. Though I might be too generous. Actually, let's look that up.
Ok. The Luxemburg military has anti-tank weapons - which are certainly bad news for the dragon, but no air defence. Anti-tank is not really great at airborne threats, so ... maybe give this one to the dragon. But even a single F-35 would utterly smash up to several dragons, no contest =)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I wouldn’t be giving the dragons Wish any time soon…
To be 100% absolutely honest and truthful, I haven't run a dragon since editions were something with 3, and back then they were sorcerers and could absolutely have wish if they so desired (provided they were old enough, and the right color and so on).
I mean, the 2025 Monster Manual does give spells back to the dragons, but they don’t have anything close to Wish.
Okay, you gotta remember they have time dragons (Go into the past and kill us when we are babies, ain't no way we are going to make the tech we have today), and greatwyrms. And they can be smarter than the smartest human.
Okay, you gotta remember they have time dragons (Go into the past and kill us when we are babies, ain't no way we are going to make the tech we have today), and greatwyrms. And they can be smarter than the smartest human.
Humans are winning. (Why are you even wanting us to get decimated?)
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5e dragons lack spells altogether, no? 3e dragons would be a more challenging question, but 5e dragons? No chance unless the proportion of dragons to humans is absurd, for action economy reasons. We've had discussions on this forum about how many 5e commoners it would take to bring down a dragon. It's not actually as many as you'd expect, and they're only using longbows and the ready action. Modern weaponry requires less skill to use than a longbow, and can make commoners quite deadly.
Then there's also the fact that technology doesn't stay constant. The more humans learn about dragon psychology and physiology, the more we could tailor our strategies and direct our research into producing effective weaponry. How long would it take human biotech firms to create a dragon-specific virus, for instance? Drones that can fly faster than dragons and autonomously target them? Weapons in space that are beyond the reach of air-breathing dragons?
Depends. I feel that you're implicitly assuming that the price of gold is fixed in terms of major currencies. If dragon hoards suddenly popped up on earth, expanding the world's (relatively small) supply of gold, then you could easily see prices collapse. That's precisely what happened when the Americas were discovered, and the mined metals made their way back to Eurasia. Not to mention that if advanced countries wanted to economically destroy this sort of dragon, we could simply flood markets with the stores of gold in Fort Knox and the NY Federal Reserve Bank (which collectively hold somewhere north of 10% of the world's supply of gold, IIRC), with likely few consequences for those governments. Also a 20% net rate of return after taxes? If I were a dragon, I'd hope I'd be intelligent enough to diversify into a broad index fund and MAYBE get a 10% return p.a. if we're lucky. But even then, what are they investing in? No fewer than fifteen defense companies are represented in the S&P 500, so the dragon may be investing in its own destruction.
True, but a) they were working with WW1-era tech and strategy, b) the humans suffered zero casualties, and c) emus are some real sons of *****es, way more ornery than even Tiamat herself.
We do have stats for an assault rifle, in rifle, automatic. It deals 2d8+ dexterity modifier. Also the fact that people are using commoner stats for soliders like guards and veterans don’t exist, so let’s assume that an average solder has a +4 dex modifier, so about 13 pricing damage from a single rifle, let’s say that they have a +3 proficiency.
a +7 won’t be enough to penetrate a adult dragon's scales half the time. Not to mention that a good amount of dragons can dig which is a much larger advantage than flying in the case of fighting humans, since we can’t really shoot through 20 feet worth of dirt and stone to hit a dragon that might be there.
No intelligent dragon is fighting in the middle of a desert against thousands of humans, it’s a massive numbers advantage and most dragons would get the hell out of this disadvantageous fight. A more likely scenario is that the humans use missiles to assault the dragons or they are forced to climb active volcanos, freezing blizzards or granny's village's lake where a invasion would cause some controversy.
I mean in an open fight, a +7 to hit against an AC of 19 (taking an adult red dragon, for instance) is excellent odds, especially if you have the numerical advantage, and especially with access to the help action. With rifles, you wouldn't even need that high of a human-dragon ratio to have the humans seriously threaten the dragon. But you're absolutely right, dragons won't sit around and become pin cushions. Burrowing is attractive, but a) it's slow, b) it won't work on solid rock or metal, and c) humans have had "bunker buster" munitions for somewhere around 80 years.
At the end of the day, technology is going to determine the outcome. I find the dragon-specific supervirus to be a very compelling argument. Dragons could also develop a technological advantage as well, but AFAIK the assignment is to consider dragons at the D&D tech level vs humanity with modern tech.
Your right about how bunker busters would nullify all dragons in active combat, but against regular infantry and tanks, they have enough speed to burrow at least 10 feet under the ground, which would give them a temporary safe haven until bombs are called on their area. So at the very least, it’s fast enough to nullify a troop of men and allow the dragon to reposition itself.
If the dragons have time to make a lair that won’t get bombed to oblivion, they would have better odds. Especially brass and blue dragons, since their lair has effects that can blind people and affect large groups, which would be very useful for potential friendly fire, splitting them up and wiping them out safely.
Designing a virus de novo is still far out of our capabilities, so we'd have to hope dragons are susceptible to existing reptile viruses. Dragons are unlikely to develop technology because of their personalities - they are largely solitary and arrogant creatures - which are both significant obstructions to technological development.
Dragons can be spellcasters in 5e. And most veterans of prior editions keep them as such. Option from the monster manual itself:
That might not be as much rare spellcasting power as a high level wizard or whatever when they're young. But it's actually pretty potent, all the same, especially as they get adult+ Eg. An adult gold dragon could then cast 7 different spells, each once per day, up to 5th level. DC of 21. And that's just an adult. An ancient one is 9 different spells, up to 8th level each! And his save DC is 24. But greatwyrms? Truly terrifying with 10 spells each up to 9th level, DC of 26.
They're nothing to scoff at.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I forgot about that variant rule years ago. Thanks for the reminder. The question then becomes pretty complicated. The spell choices of the dragons will make a huge difference. Let's say that the modal dragon is somewhere around adult-aged. As I see it, the most useful 5th-level spells for these sort of scenarios are dominate person, geas, modify memory, and things of that nature. With spellcasting dragons, would humans be able to develop tools to detect or inhibit magic?
My view up to this point is that the outcome comes down to the relative share of humans and dragons and the pace of human technological progress. Further, the age and spellcasting profile of the dragon population matters. I'd assume that most dragons are in the young-adult age category, that most cannot cast spells, and that there are fewer dragons than humans as tends to be the case with advanced species.
As a side note, there was an article in Dragon #258 that discussed battles between magic users and advanced technology that you all may find interesting.
What hasn't been said yet is that dragons are very intelligent creatures. They are unlikely to just run straight into a battle against nuclear warheads, tanks, machine guns, thousands of soldiers, etc.
Many of them are just as intelligent as humans (some even smarter), so its a good possibility that they will find a way to get their hands on some fancy weapons. Also, I can think of at least three politicians who might be willing to sell weapons to a dragon and make alliances with one.
Still though, I feel that if humanity got its act together we might have a chance of defeating a dragon.
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I am sorry but the logical answer is to this question is that the dragons lose. They simply cannot match againts modern technology and sheer numbers.
This whole thread feels like the "A Gorilla vs 100 Humans" argument, yes a Gorilla is very strong but it cannot defeate 100 humans, it would get overwhelmed and beaten to death.
Same with dragons, they are very powerful and smart beings but they are no match againts a modern civillizations with billions of inhabitants.
OP, I think you should just lower Humanities tech level, in our modern age of the 2020's we have experimental rail guns, suicide drones and literal laser weapons. Just lower Humanities tech level to the 1910's or 1920's. The main reason why Dragons lose is that they would absoloutly get overwhelmed by sheer numbers combined with our socities ability to mass produce and arm said sheer numbers with weapons that can kill them from miles away. Just set your world in a timeframe where society feels modern but still is not capable of wielding such powerful weapons, is incapable of mass producing them and their numbers are still quite limited.
It is a long thread and you probably didn't read all of it there is also no agreement of how many dragon, of what type against however as Cluckatrice said in the last post before yours dragons are intelligent and would not run straight into battle against nuclear weapons, tanks etc.
Most of the more powerful dragons have more charisma than any human and they are also able to take human form (and more intelligent than most humans). A powerful dragon could pose as a human and convince others that he should lead them and (say) become president of the USA. It could then convince those under it that other humans are a threat to their way of life and need to be destroyed. In such circumstances it would be quite plausable that humans are either destroyed or become slaves of the dragons.
I don't think he or she really can. Why? Because Modern Beuracracy is a mess, you have hundereds of conflicting interest groups, politicians and govermant workers. This is why most govermant concpiracies fall flat on their face, there are just so many factors you need to account for it all unrevals by itself. Even the smartest person cannot handle the sheer amount of red tape, political intrigue and interest groups that can support and oppose them on a whim. Chances are that Elder Dragon won't even make it to the polls because one politican just screwed over another one that had nothing to do with him and brought down his entire campaign on the side, its a mess.
TLDR : Even the smartest guy cannot fight back againts the tide of Clown World. The Super Genius that takes of everything only happens in movies for a reason XD
Logically it would make more sense if the dragons moved to take over third world countries instead... third world countries that are known for being influenced by dozens of different factions and barely being stable...
Ryan Mcbeth (who's just a youtuber, but that doesn't stop him being right) stated that modern wars are won by the side that controls the electromagnetic spectrum. Radar and missile range defeats anything dragons were designed to be able to handle. There's truly nothing else that really matters: Range and scale will defeat everything, even time stop, wish, teleport. It just doesn't impact the outcome. Dragons might be able to run, avoid combat - but there's no imaginable way in which they win.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I wouldn’t be giving the dragons Wish any time soon…
To be 100% absolutely honest and truthful, I haven't run a dragon since editions were something with 3, and back then they were sorcerers and could absolutely have wish if they so desired (provided they were old enough, and the right color and so on).
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
One aspect we don't consider in this argument.
Could the Dragons even perform magic in a world where magic doesn't exist? Can you perform "Wish" in a world were on an fundemental level the force that lets you do so is not there? I say modern humans win mainly because our world is not the world of D&D.
It is more likely that Dragons would recognize this and rather utilize the resources a modern world can provide rather than try to outright conquer it and take a risk that they don't have to. Imagine a dragon just opening a portal, getting a fake ID Card and just staying in an Hilton Hotel for a few days.
I feel like the topic is too vague, is it the entirety of human civilisation or is it like a nation such as America? Because that’s like saying who would win, The entire planet of Toril vs every dragon, a fairer assessment would be like a specific continent if other nations did not butt in.
I think it's fair to say that if it's all dragons on one side, it's all humans on the other. If you scale it down, it doesn't really get any better until you reach nations like Luxemburg vs 1 dragon. Not a bad word against the Luxemburgians, but military might is not their strong suit. Though I might be too generous. Actually, let's look that up.
Ok. The Luxemburg military has anti-tank weapons - which are certainly bad news for the dragon, but no air defence. Anti-tank is not really great at airborne threats, so ... maybe give this one to the dragon. But even a single F-35 would utterly smash up to several dragons, no contest =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I mean, the 2025 Monster Manual does give spells back to the dragons, but they don’t have anything close to Wish.
Okay, you gotta remember they have time dragons (Go into the past and kill us when we are babies, ain't no way we are going to make the tech we have today), and greatwyrms. And they can be smarter than the smartest human.
Sig but long ^w^
Gulpmissle Day, Saturday, Feburay 15th, 2025
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Henlo, I am a pan, NB, chaotic ADHD mess of a furry.
I am also a eepy eeper, who likes WoF, WC, and fire.
Humans are winning. (Why are you even wanting us to get decimated?)
Lightning flashes, it creates ash. The ash forms a human.
If you don’t know where I am, I’m either sleeping or roleplaying. If I’m doing neither of those things, except the worst. (Do not actually expect the worst) If you need to talk then PM me. Head Acolyte of The Tree Cult.