Hey everyone, hope you're doing well. I've been thinking about this build for a while and I'd like to know if it is a good (not necessarily min-maxed but at least solid) build or if it will cripple me.
I have rolled insanely good stats so I'm not too worried about how MAD it is and all the choices have story justifications (roleplay over abilities).
I'm thinking of multiclassing Paladin (up to a max of level 6 for aura of protection) and bladesinger wizard, and have it be a dex-based build.
I thought that the bladesinger's cantrip + attack, high AC, and extra spellslots for smites would synergise decently well.
Other classes that I could consider are: rogue, fighter, sorcerer, and warlock. I know that's basically half the classes but since they can all have a very easy story explanation I thought I'd lay them down. For example, adding one level of wild magic sorcerer for the free advantage, or giving up aura of protection for some roguish shenanigans.
I know sorcadin, sorlock, and padlock are insanely well optimized builds but I'm trying to think a bit outside of the box.
Some homebrew rules that might be worth noting: our DM allows us to cast spells if we have spellslots for them (so if I am a wizard 14 and paladin 6, then I can cast 9th level spells) and our DM only allows one additional damage die on a crit and only on the original weapon damage and sneak attack (so a crit doesn't affect divine smite).
Also, I probably wouldn't play with a DM that nerfs martial classes that immensly.
If you're willing can you tell me a bit more about your point regarding nerfing martial classes please? Cuz the DM said we will fully agree on all house rules during session 0 so maybe if I bring up your arguments I could get him to change his mind. I do agree that it really takes the satisfaction out of a crit, especially for crit-fishing classes, but given that crits are rare in the first place would it still count as an immense nerf?
Some homebrew rules that might be worth noting: our DM allows us to cast spells if we have spellslots for them (so if I am a wizard 14 and paladin 6, then I can cast 9th level spells) and our DM only allows one additional damage die on a crit and only on the original weapon damage and sneak attack (so a crit doesn't affect divine smite).
I can kind of understand (but only kind of) wanting to nerf crits, but a better way to accomplish it would probably be to just say "don't build a crit-fisher" or whatever. That much of a nerf makes Divine Smite almost worthless; the entire point is to use it when you crit for nova damage (not that you have to, crits are just usually the best time to use it).
And the first house rule makes casters insanely more powerful - it almost defeats all of the balances on multiclassing. Not much we can do about those rules, but your DM apparently doesn't understand that casters are already far superios to martials.
Anyway, with those rules.... Actually, your best bet would possibly be Paladin 6/Wizard 14, like you mentioned, though you wouldn't necessarily do it in that order. I'd probably go Bladesinger 6/Paladin 6/Bladesinger X. You reeaally want the Bladesinger's special multiattack if you're gonna be in melee and whatnot.
Also, I probably wouldn't play with a DM that nerfs martial classes that immensly.
If you're willing can you tell me a bit more about your point regarding nerfing martial classes please? Cuz the DM said we will fully agree on all house rules during session 0 so maybe if I bring up your arguments I could get him to change his mind. I do agree that it really takes the satisfaction out of a crit, especially for crit-fishing classes, but given that crits are rare in the first place would it still count as an immense nerf?
The fact that crits are rare actually makes it an even harder nerf. Like Helmut mentioned, crits are part of the calculation when the classes were balanced against each other. The martial classes, especially Paladins and Barbarians, have special abilities to up their damage output compared to casters. Taking away that makes them a lot worse. Paladins are already limited by their few spell slots and nerfing them like this makes them really subpar. Add to that the fact that Paladins are a melee class which means they can be taken out (or at least weakened) by casters long before they have a chance to attack.
What arguments does your GM have for the nerf, btw? Might be easier to help you if we knew that.
Have you considered College of Swords Bard? It gives you a ton of Smite Slots, and you can use your Bardic Inspiration to deal extra damage on your melee attacks, on top of the smites.
I have a character build that's (1) Hexblade Warlock, (6 or 8) Devotion Paladin, (x) Swords Bard. The character adds Charisma to almost everything, and has utility magic and smite slots coming out the ears... and even Agonizing Eldritch Blast if you go with Variant Human or have an ASI to spare on the feat.
Some homebrew rules that might be worth noting: our DM allows us to cast spells if we have spellslots for them (so if I am a wizard 14 and paladin 6, then I can cast 9th level spells) and our DM only allows one additional damage die on a crit and only on the original weapon damage and sneak attack (so a crit doesn't affect divine smite).
…
Anyway, with those rules.... Actually, your best bet would possibly be Paladin 6/Wizard 14, like you mentioned, though you wouldn't necessarily do it in that order. I'd probably go Bladesinger 6/Paladin 6/Bladesinger X. You reeaally want the Bladesinger's special multiattack if you're gonna be in melee and whatnot.
Actually, no, sorry, I would start with 2 levels of paladin, the full 6 of wizard, then finish paladin and then wizard. Not that that has much to do with the discussion, but….
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
A little off topic but I'm curious to know more about the houserule regarding crits damage restricted to only 1 additional weapon damage die and sneak attacks. Does this mean spells, spell attacks and other non weapon abilities can no longer crit as well? If this is the case maybe suggest to your DM to just ban crits altogether lol.
Normally I'd suggest taking a level of hexblade so you can focus on high Cha for basically all the things. Adding cha for attacks, snagging eldritch blast for your cantrips, its a great pick. But. Your homebrew rules plus being L20 actually makes that not a great idea.
The level 14 bladesinger ability is a good add for this build. And, the 6 paladin levels add +3 levels added to that 14 for slot progression juuuust lets you to 9th level slots. So for you that means 9th level spells known. Legit. We gotta hit that benchmark. Whatever we're giving up to multiclass elsewhere isn't going to be worth giving up 9th level spells.
So, 14th Bladesinger, 6th level Paladin.
Well, then the question becomes what kind of paladin?
I'd suggest Conquest, or, Devotion. I think.
Conquest has an aoe fear which is ok. Or a on demand +10 to hit which is also ok. The real perks here are the Armor of Agathys and the Spiritual Weapon spells. (Pro tip, spiritual weapon can deliver smites) If you go this route, Dueling style for the +2 damage since you won't TWF as your BA is better for SW. Fight with a rapier.
Devotion has Sacred Weapon, which is the big win for this subclass. It takes an action to activate, but, if you do, adds your Cha as a bonus to hit for a minute. Best to be paired with a Bonus Action spell casting in the start of combats like a misty step or similar. But, it'd crank your accuracy into overdrive. Dueling is probably best here too, since Sacred weapon is just to one weapon, best to make it a rapier.
I think an honorable mention to Watchers, if you fight lots of extraplanars or things that screw with your party's heads, this might be the bet. Granting everyone advantage on mental stat saves could be the thing. Weapon options more flexible, could dual wield or rapier, whichever. if not duel wield, settle on one of the many BA cast spells.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Also, I probably wouldn't play with a DM that nerfs martial classes that immensly.
If you're willing can you tell me a bit more about your point regarding nerfing martial classes please? Cuz the DM said we will fully agree on all house rules during session 0 so maybe if I bring up your arguments I could get him to change his mind. I do agree that it really takes the satisfaction out of a crit, especially for crit-fishing classes, but given that crits are rare in the first place would it still count as an immense nerf?
The fact that crits are rare actually makes it an even harder nerf. Like Helmut mentioned, crits are part of the calculation when the classes were balanced against each other. The martial classes, especially Paladins and Barbarians, have special abilities to up their damage output compared to casters. Taking away that makes them a lot worse. Paladins are already limited by their few spell slots and nerfing them like this makes them really subpar. Add to that the fact that Paladins are a melee class which means they can be taken out (or at least weakened) by casters long before they have a chance to attack.
What arguments does your GM have for the nerf, btw? Might be easier to help you if we knew that.
His arguments are basically just that it's dumb since it's not part of the original attack that critted. I showed him the part in the PHB where it says that crits double dice including sneak attack. He says he'll likely concede on sneak attacks since it's written verbatim in the books - even though he still thinks it's dumb - but not on smites or things like booming blade
A little off topic but I'm curious to know more about the houserule regarding crits damage restricted to only 1 additional weapon damage die and sneak attacks. Does this mean spells, spell attacks and other non weapon abilities can no longer crit as well? If this is the case maybe suggest to your DM to just ban crits altogether lol.
We've been playing it very much by ear for spells. Usually it's also one additional damage die on a spell-crit, but the DM will likely ban crits on spells for the next campaign.
A lot of the rules are homebrewed to fit the need and playing styles and everything which has caused combat to be a little off but still enjoyable (since we're all casters now) but given that at least half of us will focus our attention on being gish characters next campaign, the fact that crits dont help martials that much make it a stupid decision, might as well stay a caster.
His argument for nerfing such crits is just "it's dumb, it doesn't make sense since you don't /hit/ with the smite you just hit with the weapon, so that's what causes the crit."
Also, I probably wouldn't play with a DM that nerfs martial classes that immensly.
If you're willing can you tell me a bit more about your point regarding nerfing martial classes please? Cuz the DM said we will fully agree on all house rules during session 0 so maybe if I bring up your arguments I could get him to change his mind. I do agree that it really takes the satisfaction out of a crit, especially for crit-fishing classes, but given that crits are rare in the first place would it still count as an immense nerf?
The fact that crits are rare actually makes it an even harder nerf. Like Helmut mentioned, crits are part of the calculation when the classes were balanced against each other. The martial classes, especially Paladins and Barbarians, have special abilities to up their damage output compared to casters. Taking away that makes them a lot worse. Paladins are already limited by their few spell slots and nerfing them like this makes them really subpar. Add to that the fact that Paladins are a melee class which means they can be taken out (or at least weakened) by casters long before they have a chance to attack.
What arguments does your GM have for the nerf, btw? Might be easier to help you if we knew that.
His arguments are basically just that it's dumb since it's not part of the original attack that critted. I showed him the part in the PHB where it says that crits double dice including sneak attack. He says he'll likely concede on sneak attacks since it's written verbatim in the books - even though he still thinks it's dumb - but not on smites or things like booming blade
Wow, that's just stupid. Show him that it says "ALL of the attack's damage dice twice" on page 196. If he still wants to play against the rule, find another GM to play with.
Regardless of the crit rules, I think Paladin/Monk would be really funny. Stunning and smiting has some serious cool points and the added mobility would be a nightmare to any ranged enemy. Just think, high AC from Monk, high hp from pally and lay on hands means you vcan afford to sprint through a couple opportunity attacks (bonus points if you run on the walls to avoid them) and then stun+smite any spellcaster unlucky enough to exist within reach of your sword.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Allowing you to choose spells based on character level enables multiclass builds that are completely and utterly broken. The crit nerf thing is absolutely bonkers in comparison.
So... How do you choose the spell list then? If I dip 1 level into wizard with my cleric, do I get access to ALL wizard spells instead of just level 1? Cause then I'll just dip into druid, cleric and wiz for the ultimate spell list.
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Hey everyone, hope you're doing well. I've been thinking about this build for a while and I'd like to know if it is a good (not necessarily min-maxed but at least solid) build or if it will cripple me.
I have rolled insanely good stats so I'm not too worried about how MAD it is and all the choices have story justifications (roleplay over abilities).
I'm thinking of multiclassing Paladin (up to a max of level 6 for aura of protection) and bladesinger wizard, and have it be a dex-based build.
I thought that the bladesinger's cantrip + attack, high AC, and extra spellslots for smites would synergise decently well.
Other classes that I could consider are: rogue, fighter, sorcerer, and warlock. I know that's basically half the classes but since they can all have a very easy story explanation I thought I'd lay them down. For example, adding one level of wild magic sorcerer for the free advantage, or giving up aura of protection for some roguish shenanigans.
I know sorcadin, sorlock, and padlock are insanely well optimized builds but I'm trying to think a bit outside of the box.
Some homebrew rules that might be worth noting: our DM allows us to cast spells if we have spellslots for them (so if I am a wizard 14 and paladin 6, then I can cast 9th level spells) and our DM only allows one additional damage die on a crit and only on the original weapon damage and sneak attack (so a crit doesn't affect divine smite).
Any advice on how to level this character?
If you want a really fun but completely MAD character, try a Paladin Monk. 6 levels of Paladin, as much as you can of Monk.
Also, I probably wouldn't play with a DM that nerfs martial classes that immensly.
If you're willing can you tell me a bit more about your point regarding nerfing martial classes please? Cuz the DM said we will fully agree on all house rules during session 0 so maybe if I bring up your arguments I could get him to change his mind. I do agree that it really takes the satisfaction out of a crit, especially for crit-fishing classes, but given that crits are rare in the first place would it still count as an immense nerf?
I can kind of understand (but only kind of) wanting to nerf crits, but a better way to accomplish it would probably be to just say "don't build a crit-fisher" or whatever. That much of a nerf makes Divine Smite almost worthless; the entire point is to use it when you crit for nova damage (not that you have to, crits are just usually the best time to use it).
And the first house rule makes casters insanely more powerful - it almost defeats all of the balances on multiclassing. Not much we can do about those rules, but your DM apparently doesn't understand that casters are already far superios to martials.
Anyway, with those rules.... Actually, your best bet would possibly be Paladin 6/Wizard 14, like you mentioned, though you wouldn't necessarily do it in that order. I'd probably go Bladesinger 6/Paladin 6/Bladesinger X. You reeaally want the Bladesinger's special multiattack if you're gonna be in melee and whatnot.
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
The fact that crits are rare actually makes it an even harder nerf. Like Helmut mentioned, crits are part of the calculation when the classes were balanced against each other. The martial classes, especially Paladins and Barbarians, have special abilities to up their damage output compared to casters. Taking away that makes them a lot worse. Paladins are already limited by their few spell slots and nerfing them like this makes them really subpar. Add to that the fact that Paladins are a melee class which means they can be taken out (or at least weakened) by casters long before they have a chance to attack.
What arguments does your GM have for the nerf, btw? Might be easier to help you if we knew that.
Have you considered College of Swords Bard? It gives you a ton of Smite Slots, and you can use your Bardic Inspiration to deal extra damage on your melee attacks, on top of the smites.
I have a character build that's (1) Hexblade Warlock, (6 or 8) Devotion Paladin, (x) Swords Bard. The character adds Charisma to almost everything, and has utility magic and smite slots coming out the ears... and even Agonizing Eldritch Blast if you go with Variant Human or have an ASI to spare on the feat.
Actually, no, sorry, I would start with 2 levels of paladin, the full 6 of wizard, then finish paladin and then wizard. Not that that has much to do with the discussion, but….
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
A little off topic but I'm curious to know more about the houserule regarding crits damage restricted to only 1 additional weapon damage die and sneak attacks. Does this mean spells, spell attacks and other non weapon abilities can no longer crit as well? If this is the case maybe suggest to your DM to just ban crits altogether lol.
Normally I'd suggest taking a level of hexblade so you can focus on high Cha for basically all the things. Adding cha for attacks, snagging eldritch blast for your cantrips, its a great pick. But. Your homebrew rules plus being L20 actually makes that not a great idea.
The level 14 bladesinger ability is a good add for this build. And, the 6 paladin levels add +3 levels added to that 14 for slot progression juuuust lets you to 9th level slots. So for you that means 9th level spells known. Legit. We gotta hit that benchmark. Whatever we're giving up to multiclass elsewhere isn't going to be worth giving up 9th level spells.
So, 14th Bladesinger, 6th level Paladin.
Well, then the question becomes what kind of paladin?
I'd suggest Conquest, or, Devotion. I think.
Conquest has an aoe fear which is ok. Or a on demand +10 to hit which is also ok. The real perks here are the Armor of Agathys and the Spiritual Weapon spells. (Pro tip, spiritual weapon can deliver smites) If you go this route, Dueling style for the +2 damage since you won't TWF as your BA is better for SW. Fight with a rapier.
Devotion has Sacred Weapon, which is the big win for this subclass. It takes an action to activate, but, if you do, adds your Cha as a bonus to hit for a minute. Best to be paired with a Bonus Action spell casting in the start of combats like a misty step or similar. But, it'd crank your accuracy into overdrive. Dueling is probably best here too, since Sacred weapon is just to one weapon, best to make it a rapier.
I think an honorable mention to Watchers, if you fight lots of extraplanars or things that screw with your party's heads, this might be the bet. Granting everyone advantage on mental stat saves could be the thing. Weapon options more flexible, could dual wield or rapier, whichever. if not duel wield, settle on one of the many BA cast spells.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
His arguments are basically just that it's dumb since it's not part of the original attack that critted. I showed him the part in the PHB where it says that crits double dice including sneak attack. He says he'll likely concede on sneak attacks since it's written verbatim in the books - even though he still thinks it's dumb - but not on smites or things like booming blade
We've been playing it very much by ear for spells. Usually it's also one additional damage die on a spell-crit, but the DM will likely ban crits on spells for the next campaign.
A lot of the rules are homebrewed to fit the need and playing styles and everything which has caused combat to be a little off but still enjoyable (since we're all casters now) but given that at least half of us will focus our attention on being gish characters next campaign, the fact that crits dont help martials that much make it a stupid decision, might as well stay a caster.
His argument for nerfing such crits is just "it's dumb, it doesn't make sense since you don't /hit/ with the smite you just hit with the weapon, so that's what causes the crit."
So, your DM is arguing about logic in a game with magic and dragons?
[REDACTED]
Wow, that's just stupid. Show him that it says "ALL of the attack's damage dice twice" on page 196. If he still wants to play against the rule, find another GM to play with.
Regardless of the crit rules, I think Paladin/Monk would be really funny. Stunning and smiting has some serious cool points and the added mobility would be a nightmare to any ranged enemy. Just think, high AC from Monk, high hp from pally and lay on hands means you vcan afford to sprint through a couple opportunity attacks (bonus points if you run on the walls to avoid them) and then stun+smite any spellcaster unlucky enough to exist within reach of your sword.
Keep your friends close, and enemies closer.
funny.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
and add Cha mod + proficiency bonus to all saves if you go paladin 6/monk 14
Paladin Monk would be an absolutely sick build for my main character, however for my current character, I am torn between going to:
I could also go for Pal 2 instead of 6, but I think that the extra hit points and aura of protection are pretty sweet.
Allowing you to choose spells based on character level enables multiclass builds that are completely and utterly broken. The crit nerf thing is absolutely bonkers in comparison.
So... How do you choose the spell list then? If I dip 1 level into wizard with my cleric, do I get access to ALL wizard spells instead of just level 1? Cause then I'll just dip into druid, cleric and wiz for the ultimate spell list.
Finland GMT/UTC +2