This is blatantly untrue. Martials are 1) entirely reliant on magic items to reach massive damage numbers, 2) restricted to single target damage and 3) lack any kind of consistent crowd control.
What are you talking about? Martials get to impose the best condition of all : Dead. Why would a martial sacrifice the chance to kill the BBEG for a maybe 50:50 shot at stopping the BBEG from attacking for 1 round?
A 2014, level 20 Elf Champion Fighter with GWM, Sentinel and 20 Strength, over the course of a 6-round combat against an enemy with AC = 18, deals: Round 1: 0.4*(3.5*2+5+10)*9 + 0.1*(3.5*2)*9 (Action + Action Surge + Reaction or BA + Crits) = 85.5 damage Round 2: 0.4*(3.5*2+5+10)*9 + 0.1*(3.5*2)*9 (Action + Action Surge + Reaction or BA + Crits) = 85.5 damage Round 3-6: 0.4*(3.5*2+5+10)*5 + 0.1*(3.5*2)*5 (Action + Reaction or BA + Crits) = 47.5 damage Total Single-Target Damage over 6 rounds = 361
A 2014, level 20 Elf Wizard over the course of a 6-round combat against enemies with AC = 18 / saves +9, deals: Round 1: Meteor Swarm (9th) = 0.5*140+0.5*70 = 105 damage Round 2: Finger of Death (8th) = 0.75*(7*4.5+30) = 46.125 damage Round 3: Finger of Death (7th) = 0.75*(7*4.5+30) = 46.125 damage Round 4: Finger of Death (7th) = 0.75*(7*4.5+30) = 46.125 damage Round 5: Disintegrate (6th)= 0.5*(10*3.5+40) = 37.5 damage Round 6: Cone of Cold (5th) = 0.75*(8*4.5) = 36 damage Total Single-Target Damage over 6 rounds = 316.875
So even if a wizard dumps all of their top level spell slots for the whole day into a single fight, they still do substantially (i.e. 15%) less damage than the most generic DPR-focused fighter. That Fighter can do that damage after every SR. The wizard can deal that damage once per day.
That’s over six rounds and assuming that (since you’re using GWM) the BBEG doesn’t just outrange you, kill you first within those six rounds, make you fail one saving throw against charmed/frightened/any other condition. This also assumes you’re getting a reaction attack? And also assumes you’re hitting, a BBEG isn’t going to have an AC of 18 and if they do, your highest to hit chance with no magic items is +11 (5 (str)+6(PB)), which is a +6 if you’re using GWM. That gives you a less than 50 percent chance to hit. You don’t have advantage either because you’re just fully playing champion fighter. And you only get two action surges, not three.
Also why finger of death? That’s not at all optimal for damage. You could technically cast prismatic wall/reverse gravity, and use disintegrate for your high damage spell.
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I’d also like to add that most creatures past a certain CR are immune or resistant to nonmagical damage, so martials do literally need magic items to be of use.
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I’d also like to add that most creatures past a certain CR are immune or resistant to nonmagical damage, so martials do literally need magic items to be of use.
And have advantage on saves against magic, or even immune to ones that require an attack roll.
I’d also like to add that most creatures past a certain CR are immune or resistant to nonmagical damage, so martials do literally need magic items to be of use.
And have advantage on saves against magic, or even immune to ones that require an attack roll.
Silvery barbs is a spell that can be used as a reaction, most spells that deal damage still do half damage on a success, some spells don’t even require saves, and I’m not sure what spells you are referring to that monsters are immune to that require an attack roll.
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This is blatantly untrue. Martials are 1) entirely reliant on magic items to reach massive damage numbers, 2) restricted to single target damage and 3) lack any kind of consistent crowd control.
What are you talking about? Martials get to impose the best condition of all : Dead. Why would a martial sacrifice the chance to kill the BBEG for a maybe 50:50 shot at stopping the BBEG from attacking for 1 round?
A 2014, level 20 Elf Champion Fighter with GWM, Sentinel and 20 Strength, over the course of a 6-round combat against an enemy with AC = 18, deals: Round 1: 0.4*(3.5*2+5+10)*9 + 0.1*(3.5*2)*9 (Action + Action Surge + Reaction or BA + Crits) = 85.5 damage Round 2: 0.4*(3.5*2+5+10)*9 + 0.1*(3.5*2)*9 (Action + Action Surge + Reaction or BA + Crits) = 85.5 damage Round 3-6: 0.4*(3.5*2+5+10)*5 + 0.1*(3.5*2)*5 (Action + Reaction or BA + Crits) = 47.5 damage Total Single-Target Damage over 6 rounds = 361
A 2014, level 20 Elf Wizard over the course of a 6-round combat against enemies with AC = 18 / saves +9, deals: Round 1: Meteor Swarm (9th) = 0.5*140+0.5*70 = 105 damage Round 2: Finger of Death (8th) = 0.75*(7*4.5+30) = 46.125 damage Round 3: Finger of Death (7th) = 0.75*(7*4.5+30) = 46.125 damage Round 4: Finger of Death (7th) = 0.75*(7*4.5+30) = 46.125 damage Round 5: Disintegrate (6th)= 0.5*(10*3.5+40) = 37.5 damage Round 6: Cone of Cold (5th) = 0.75*(8*4.5) = 36 damage Total Single-Target Damage over 6 rounds = 316.875
So even if a wizard dumps all of their top level spell slots for the whole day into a single fight, they still do substantially (i.e. 15%) less damage than the most generic DPR-focused fighter. That Fighter can do that damage after every SR. The wizard can deal that damage once per day.
Or, I could make an optimised caster build (scribes 18/tempest 2), transmute meteor swarm to lightning, and deal 240 flat across a 1004.8 square foot area. It gets worse for you. I can throw in elemental adept, so that bypasses resistance. I can throw in adept of the black robes, spend 9 hit dice, and scale that up to 294 flat across a 1004.8 square foot area. If there is two targets, in, I reiterate, a one thousand and four point eight square foot area, that’s 588 damage. Plus, these targets could be up to two miles apart. They could be flying. The fighter has no way to deal with either of these problems.
This is also an impressively dishonest breakdown of damage. Finger of death is mediocre, to put it mildly; disintegrate outclasses it damagewise at every level. You also give the fighter a subclass and the wizard no subclass.
More to the point, a fighter doing however much damage is moot compared to the instant disable options wizard has. Polymorph, for instance. Or the classic: reverse gravity prismatic wall. Or, since we’re assuming that the enemy you’re fighting has no method of escaping you, wall of force or forcecage. None of these last for one round.
Cyno also raises an excellent point - your saves are garbage. You fail one frightened save and it’s over. You can’t move closer and you can’t make melee attacks. You fail one charm and it’s over. Casters are vulnerable to this too, sure, but they also have better mental saves and actual counterplay. Or you could just play paladin.
I’d also like to add that most creatures past a certain CR are immune or resistant to nonmagical damage, so martials do literally need magic items to be of use.
And have advantage on saves against magic, or even immune to ones that require an attack roll.
Silvery barbs is a spell that can be used as a reaction, most spells that deal damage still do half damage on a success, some spells don’t even require saves, and I’m not sure what spells you are referring to that monsters are immune to that require an attack roll.
One specific monster, the tarrasque, is immune to spells that require an attack roll.
“Your answer to martials doing more single target damage is that spellcasters do more multi target damage? Also, that fighter will stay at 150 damage, but the wizard's 8th level spells will be doing even less damage.”
****ed up the quote chain.
If you aren’t going to read my posts, don’t bother responding.
As soon as there is multiple combatants, wizard nova damage outclasses fighter nova damage. Fighter will not remain at 150DPR; it will drop to 88, including GWM, because they don’t have a limitless supply of action surges and echo knight extra attacks, as I stated in my post that you quoted. If they want to have a double-digit to-hit that damage drops to 48.
That wizard’s eighth and lower level spells are things like forcecage, psychic lance, mind whip, slow, et cetera. If you brute force everything with raw damage and you’re not a paladin that can heal itself and shrug off spells and effects with your massive save bonuses, you’re going to struggle and then die.
“Your answer to martials doing more single target damage is that spellcasters do more multi target damage? Also, that fighter will stay at 150 damage, but the wizard's 8th level spells will be doing even less damage.”
****ed up the quote chain.
If you aren’t going to read my posts, don’t bother responding.
As soon as there is multiple combatants, wizard nova damage outclasses fighter nova damage. Fighter will not remain at 150DPR; it will drop to 88, including GWM, because they don’t have a limitless supply of action surges and echo knight extra attacks, as I stated in my post that you quoted. If they want to have a double-digit to-hit that damage drops to 48.
That wizard’s eighth and lower level spells are things like forcecage, psychic lance, mind whip, slow, et cetera. If you brute force everything with raw damage and you’re not a paladin that can heal itself and shrug off spells and effects with your massive save bonuses, you’re going to struggle and then die.
You can say whatever you want about me reading your posts, yet again you've instantly segued into "As soon as there is multiple combatants," before continuing to talk about control and debuff spells.
You can say whatever you want about me reading your posts, yet again you've instantly segued into "As soon as there is multiple combatants," before continuing to talk about control and debuff spells.
You aren’t reading it. Redpelt stated that nova damage would be around 150, which is around the same as a wizard’s, while the consistent damage drops to 48, which is worse than a wizard’s.
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That’s over six rounds and assuming that (since you’re using GWM) the BBEG doesn’t just outrange you, kill you first within those six rounds, make you fail one saving throw against charmed/frightened/any other condition. This also assumes you’re getting a reaction attack? And also assumes you’re hitting, a BBEG isn’t going to have an AC of 18 and if they do, your highest to hit chance with no magic items is +11 (5 (str)+6(PB)), which is a +6 if you’re using GWM. That gives you a less than 50 percent chance to hit. You don’t have advantage either because you’re just fully playing champion fighter. And you only get two action surges, not three.
Also why finger of death? That’s not at all optimal for damage. You could technically cast prismatic wall/reverse gravity, and use disintegrate for your high damage spell.
Dude, read my post. I'm not assuming everything always lands. I assume 40% chance to hit with GWM, and 50% chance an enemy fails its save, which is completely reasonable for a level 20 party with no magic items - if you have no magic items it's extremely difficult to take on CR > 21 enemies, and most CR 19-21 enemies have an AC ~18, saves ~+9, and about half have legendary resistances (which I did not factor in).
I used 2 Action Surges (I had a typo with 3 listed but only 2 in the actual calculations), and assumed roughly 50% chance of a Critical hit or killing an enemy per turn for a BA attack from GWM and 50% chance of a reaction attack b/c of Sentinel. This is pretty reasonable in my experience of playing with such characters in the paryt.
Finger of death is optimal for single-target damage without making a ton of assumptions. Disintegrate deals less damage than Finger of Death in 2014 when save probability is taken into account.
You fail one frightened save and it’s over. You can’t move closer and you can’t make melee attacks. You fail one charm and it’s over. Casters are vulnerable to this too, sure, but they also have better mental saves and actual counterplay. Or you could just play paladin.
Um.. yeah? That's a deliberate design choice. D&D is a team-game, the party needs to work together or they will all die. So of course high level play is designed such that any solo character is completely hopeless at winning against a boss enemy.
Dude, read my post. I'm not assuming everything always lands. I assume 40% chance to hit with GWM, and 50% chance an enemy fails its save, which is completely reasonable for a level 20 party with no magic items - if you have no magic items it's extremely difficult to take on CR > 21 enemies, and most CR 19-21 enemies have an AC ~18, saves ~+9, and about half have legendary resistances (which I did not factor in).
50 percent chance an enemy fails the save doesn’t factor in subclasses like chronurgist, since we’re using champion fighter expanded crit range, and also unlimited silvery barbs from the wizard. In addition, champion fighter crit range does not give you a 50 percent chance to crit, not even with elven accuracy.
I used 2 Action Surges (I had a typo with 3 listed but only 2 in the actual calculations), and assumed roughly 50% chance of a Critical hit or killing an enemy per turn for a BA attack from GWM and 50% chance of a reaction attack b/c of Sentinel. This is pretty reasonable in my experience of playing with such characters in the paryt.
I thought this was about solo targets? If we’re factoring multiple enemies (assuming since you mentioned GWM bonus attack) wizard can just clear those with repeated fireballs while still dealing damage to the original target. And sentinel factoring is a little strange if we’re only considering using finger of death as the wizard’s main form of attack.
Finger of death is optimal for single-target damage without making a ton of assumptions. Disintegrate deals less damage than Finger of Death in 2014 when save probability is taken into account.
You didn’t account for subclasses for wizard either though, as well as reaction spells. Your math is skewed to put fighter in the most optimal circumstances while kneecapping wizard.
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You can say whatever you want about me reading your posts, yet again you've instantly segued into "As soon as there is multiple combatants," before continuing to talk about control and debuff spells.
You aren’t reading it. Redpelt stated that nova damage would be around 150, which is around the same as a wizard’s, while the consistent damage drops to 48, which is worse than a wizard’s.
You aren't reading it. If you on the previous page for context, round one is 220, round two is 150, and it eventually drops to 88, or 48 without great weapon master. It's actually better though, as gwm has been buffed to give less damage but not decrease accuracy.
You can say whatever you want about me reading your posts, yet again you've instantly segued into "As soon as there is multiple combatants," before continuing to talk about control and debuff spells.
You aren’t reading it. Redpelt stated that nova damage would be around 150, which is around the same as a wizard’s, while the consistent damage drops to 48, which is worse than a wizard’s.
You aren't reading it. If you on the previous page for context, round one is 220, round two is 150, and it eventually drops to 88, or 48 without great weapon master. It's actually better though, as gwm has been buffed to give less damage but not decrease accuracy.
This thread is discussing 2014 rules.
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You can say whatever you want about me reading your posts, yet again you've instantly segued into "As soon as there is multiple combatants," before continuing to talk about control and debuff spells.
You aren’t reading it. Redpelt stated that nova damage would be around 150, which is around the same as a wizard’s, while the consistent damage drops to 48, which is worse than a wizard’s.
You aren't reading it. If you on the previous page for context, round one is 220, round two is 150, and it eventually drops to 88, or 48 without great weapon master. It's actually better though, as gwm has been buffed to give less damage but not decrease accuracy.
Round one is 220, if with your terrible initiative you go first and also manage to close the distance with your 30ft movement speed. Otherwise it caps out at 150, for two rounds. No eventually about it.
You can say whatever you want about me reading your posts, yet again you've instantly segued into "As soon as there is multiple combatants," before continuing to talk about control and debuff spells.
You aren’t reading it. Redpelt stated that nova damage would be around 150, which is around the same as a wizard’s, while the consistent damage drops to 48, which is worse than a wizard’s.
You aren't reading it. If you on the previous page for context, round one is 220, round two is 150, and it eventually drops to 88, or 48 without great weapon master. It's actually better though, as gwm has been buffed to give less damage but not decrease accuracy.
Round one is 220, if with your terrible initiative you go first and also manage to close the distance with your 30ft movement speed. Otherwise it caps out at 150, for two rounds. No eventually about it.
Are you really trying to tell that my use of the word eventually was bad because it takes two rounds instead of some undefined amount of them? Also, it is quite possible the fighter uses two of their many ASIs to increase their con to +5 making it 4.
Maybe it’s just me, but playing martials, especially full martials, always seems to less beneficial than being a full caster.
And yet, when it comes to actual play, around the table - if my full martial whatever meets a caster, I am the greatest threat on the map. Because on paper, casters are always perfectly prepared for any situation, but in real play, they never are.
Oh, I did have a situation recently where a martial - not mine, a friend played a barbarian - and failed a save. And kept failing it, round after round, until he'd effectively run off the map. Not the battle map. The city map.
So there are exceptions. But generally speaking, casters cannot keep melees down - their only option is to run.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Maybe it’s just me, but playing martials, especially full martials, always seems to less beneficial than being a full caster.
And yet, when it comes to actual play, around the table - if my full martial whatever meets a caster, I am the greatest threat on the map. Because on paper, casters are always perfectly prepared for any situation, but in real play, they never are.
Oh, I did have a situation recently where a martial - not mine, a friend played a barbarian - and failed a save. And kept failing it, round after round, until he'd effectively run off the map. Not the battle map. The city map.
So there are exceptions. But generally speaking, casters cannot keep melees down - their only option is to run.
Casters can absolutely keep melees down. Slow spell, Fly, Gaseous Form, Forcecage, Wall of Force, Hold Person, Reverse Gravity, Spike Growth, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, and more. If a caster can’t beat a martial, it’s because the caster is doing nothing but walking backwards and spamming cantrips, which isn’t how casters should be playing. That’s like playing fighter and making one attack per turn. Casters always outperform martials in interactions (they have higher mental stats, which are used in more checks), utility, damage, and pretty much every field except for the number of attacks they can make in a turn.
I’m not saying I dislike martials - I love playing martials. I just wish they were better. Half casters deal the most damage, followed by casters, with full martials taking last place.
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Maybe it’s just me, but playing martials, especially full martials, always seems to less beneficial than being a full caster.
And yet, when it comes to actual play, around the table - if my full martial whatever meets a caster, I am the greatest threat on the map. Because on paper, casters are always perfectly prepared for any situation, but in real play, they never are.
Oh, I did have a situation recently where a martial - not mine, a friend played a barbarian - and failed a save. And kept failing it, round after round, until he'd effectively run off the map. Not the battle map. The city map.
So there are exceptions. But generally speaking, casters cannot keep melees down - their only option is to run.
Casters can absolutely keep melees down. Slow spell, Fly, Gaseous Form, Forcecage, Wall of Force, Hold Person, Reverse Gravity, Spike Growth, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, and more. If a caster can’t beat a martial, it’s because the caster is doing nothing but walking backwards and spamming cantrips, which isn’t how casters should be playing. That’s like playing fighter and making one attack per turn. Casters always outperform martials in interactions (they have higher mental stats, which are used in more checks), utility, damage, and pretty much every field except for the number of attacks they can make in a turn.
I’m not saying I dislike martials - I love playing martials. I just wish they were better. Half casters deal the most damage, followed by casters, with full martials taking last place.
Martials are also a lot more durable. Especially if you want casters to dump dex and con in favor of mental stats.
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What are you talking about? Martials get to impose the best condition of all : Dead. Why would a martial sacrifice the chance to kill the BBEG for a maybe 50:50 shot at stopping the BBEG from attacking for 1 round?
A 2014, level 20 Elf Champion Fighter with GWM, Sentinel and 20 Strength, over the course of a 6-round combat against an enemy with AC = 18, deals:
Round 1: 0.4*(3.5*2+5+10)*9 + 0.1*(3.5*2)*9 (Action + Action Surge + Reaction or BA + Crits) = 85.5 damage
Round 2: 0.4*(3.5*2+5+10)*9 + 0.1*(3.5*2)*9 (Action + Action Surge + Reaction or BA + Crits) = 85.5 damage
Round 3-6: 0.4*(3.5*2+5+10)*5 + 0.1*(3.5*2)*5 (Action + Reaction or BA + Crits) = 47.5 damage
Total Single-Target Damage over 6 rounds = 361
A 2014, level 20 Elf Wizard over the course of a 6-round combat against enemies with AC = 18 / saves +9, deals:
Round 1: Meteor Swarm (9th) = 0.5*140+0.5*70 = 105 damage
Round 2: Finger of Death (8th) = 0.75*(7*4.5+30) = 46.125 damage
Round 3: Finger of Death (7th) = 0.75*(7*4.5+30) = 46.125 damage
Round 4: Finger of Death (7th) = 0.75*(7*4.5+30) = 46.125 damage
Round 5: Disintegrate (6th)= 0.5*(10*3.5+40) = 37.5 damage
Round 6: Cone of Cold (5th) = 0.75*(8*4.5) = 36 damage
Total Single-Target Damage over 6 rounds = 316.875
So even if a wizard dumps all of their top level spell slots for the whole day into a single fight, they still do substantially (i.e. 15%) less damage than the most generic DPR-focused fighter. That Fighter can do that damage after every SR. The wizard can deal that damage once per day.
That’s over six rounds and assuming that (since you’re using GWM) the BBEG doesn’t just outrange you, kill you first within those six rounds, make you fail one saving throw against charmed/frightened/any other condition. This also assumes you’re getting a reaction attack? And also assumes you’re hitting, a BBEG isn’t going to have an AC of 18 and if they do, your highest to hit chance with no magic items is +11 (5 (str)+6(PB)), which is a +6 if you’re using GWM. That gives you a less than 50 percent chance to hit. You don’t have advantage either because you’re just fully playing champion fighter. And you only get two action surges, not three.
Also why finger of death? That’s not at all optimal for damage. You could technically cast prismatic wall/reverse gravity, and use disintegrate for your high damage spell.
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I’d also like to add that most creatures past a certain CR are immune or resistant to nonmagical damage, so martials do literally need magic items to be of use.
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And have advantage on saves against magic, or even immune to ones that require an attack roll.
Silvery barbs is a spell that can be used as a reaction, most spells that deal damage still do half damage on a success, some spells don’t even require saves, and I’m not sure what spells you are referring to that monsters are immune to that require an attack roll.
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Or, I could make an optimised caster build (scribes 18/tempest 2), transmute meteor swarm to lightning, and deal 240 flat across a 1004.8 square foot area. It gets worse for you. I can throw in elemental adept, so that bypasses resistance. I can throw in adept of the black robes, spend 9 hit dice, and scale that up to 294 flat across a 1004.8 square foot area. If there is two targets, in, I reiterate, a one thousand and four point eight square foot area, that’s 588 damage. Plus, these targets could be up to two miles apart. They could be flying. The fighter has no way to deal with either of these problems.
This is also an impressively dishonest breakdown of damage. Finger of death is mediocre, to put it mildly; disintegrate outclasses it damagewise at every level. You also give the fighter a subclass and the wizard no subclass.
More to the point, a fighter doing however much damage is moot compared to the instant disable options wizard has. Polymorph, for instance. Or the classic: reverse gravity prismatic wall. Or, since we’re assuming that the enemy you’re fighting has no method of escaping you, wall of force or forcecage. None of these last for one round.
Cyno also raises an excellent point - your saves are garbage. You fail one frightened save and it’s over. You can’t move closer and you can’t make melee attacks. You fail one charm and it’s over. Casters are vulnerable to this too, sure, but they also have better mental saves and actual counterplay. Or you could just play paladin.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
One specific monster, the tarrasque, is immune to spells that require an attack roll.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
“Your answer to martials doing more single target damage is that spellcasters do more multi target damage? Also, that fighter will stay at 150 damage, but the wizard's 8th level spells will be doing even less damage.”
****ed up the quote chain.
If you aren’t going to read my posts, don’t bother responding.
As soon as there is multiple combatants, wizard nova damage outclasses fighter nova damage. Fighter will not remain at 150DPR; it will drop to 88, including GWM, because they don’t have a limitless supply of action surges and echo knight extra attacks, as I stated in my post that you quoted. If they want to have a double-digit to-hit that damage drops to 48.
That wizard’s eighth and lower level spells are things like forcecage, psychic lance, mind whip, slow, et cetera. If you brute force everything with raw damage and you’re not a paladin that can heal itself and shrug off spells and effects with your massive save bonuses, you’re going to struggle and then die.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
You can say whatever you want about me reading your posts, yet again you've instantly segued into "As soon as there is multiple combatants," before continuing to talk about control and debuff spells.
You aren’t reading it. Redpelt stated that nova damage would be around 150, which is around the same as a wizard’s, while the consistent damage drops to 48, which is worse than a wizard’s.
— δ cyno • he/him • number one paladin fan δ —
making a smoothie for meta
——————| EXTENDED SIG |——————
Φ • redpelt’s biggest fan :) DM, minmaxer, microbiology student, and lover of anything colored red • Φ
Dude, read my post. I'm not assuming everything always lands. I assume 40% chance to hit with GWM, and 50% chance an enemy fails its save, which is completely reasonable for a level 20 party with no magic items - if you have no magic items it's extremely difficult to take on CR > 21 enemies, and most CR 19-21 enemies have an AC ~18, saves ~+9, and about half have legendary resistances (which I did not factor in).
I used 2 Action Surges (I had a typo with 3 listed but only 2 in the actual calculations), and assumed roughly 50% chance of a Critical hit or killing an enemy per turn for a BA attack from GWM and 50% chance of a reaction attack b/c of Sentinel. This is pretty reasonable in my experience of playing with such characters in the paryt.
Finger of death is optimal for single-target damage without making a ton of assumptions. Disintegrate deals less damage than Finger of Death in 2014 when save probability is taken into account.
Um.. yeah? That's a deliberate design choice. D&D is a team-game, the party needs to work together or they will all die. So of course high level play is designed such that any solo character is completely hopeless at winning against a boss enemy.
50 percent chance an enemy fails the save doesn’t factor in subclasses like chronurgist, since we’re using champion fighter expanded crit range, and also unlimited silvery barbs from the wizard. In addition, champion fighter crit range does not give you a 50 percent chance to crit, not even with elven accuracy.
I thought this was about solo targets? If we’re factoring multiple enemies (assuming since you mentioned GWM bonus attack) wizard can just clear those with repeated fireballs while still dealing damage to the original target. And sentinel factoring is a little strange if we’re only considering using finger of death as the wizard’s main form of attack.
You didn’t account for subclasses for wizard either though, as well as reaction spells. Your math is skewed to put fighter in the most optimal circumstances while kneecapping wizard.
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You aren't reading it. If you on the previous page for context, round one is 220, round two is 150, and it eventually drops to 88, or 48 without great weapon master. It's actually better though, as gwm has been buffed to give less damage but not decrease accuracy.
This thread is discussing 2014 rules.
— δ cyno • he/him • number one paladin fan δ —
making a smoothie for meta
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Φ • redpelt’s biggest fan :) DM, minmaxer, microbiology student, and lover of anything colored red • Φ
Round one is 220, if with your terrible initiative you go first and also manage to close the distance with your 30ft movement speed. Otherwise it caps out at 150, for two rounds. No eventually about it.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Are you really trying to tell that my use of the word eventually was bad because it takes two rounds instead of some undefined amount of them? Also, it is quite possible the fighter uses two of their many ASIs to increase their con to +5 making it 4.
And yet, when it comes to actual play, around the table - if my full martial whatever meets a caster, I am the greatest threat on the map. Because on paper, casters are always perfectly prepared for any situation, but in real play, they never are.
Oh, I did have a situation recently where a martial - not mine, a friend played a barbarian - and failed a save. And kept failing it, round after round, until he'd effectively run off the map. Not the battle map. The city map.
So there are exceptions. But generally speaking, casters cannot keep melees down - their only option is to run.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Casters can absolutely keep melees down. Slow spell, Fly, Gaseous Form, Forcecage, Wall of Force, Hold Person, Reverse Gravity, Spike Growth, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, and more. If a caster can’t beat a martial, it’s because the caster is doing nothing but walking backwards and spamming cantrips, which isn’t how casters should be playing. That’s like playing fighter and making one attack per turn. Casters always outperform martials in interactions (they have higher mental stats, which are used in more checks), utility, damage, and pretty much every field except for the number of attacks they can make in a turn.
I’m not saying I dislike martials - I love playing martials. I just wish they were better. Half casters deal the most damage, followed by casters, with full martials taking last place.
— δ cyno • he/him • number one paladin fan δ —
making a smoothie for meta
——————| EXTENDED SIG |——————
Φ • redpelt’s biggest fan :) DM, minmaxer, microbiology student, and lover of anything colored red • Φ
Martials are also a lot more durable. Especially if you want casters to dump dex and con in favor of mental stats.