How is two-weapon fighting intended to work with hand crossbows?
Due to the ammunition property, you have to have a free hand in order to attack with a crossbow, so it seems it's only compatible with melee weapons. Attack with your shortsword in one hand, then drop it so you can now fire the hand crossbow you've been holding in your other hand.
Or is the timing looser than that? Like, can you fire a hand crossbow in one hand, then now that you've done that, you can drop it and pick up and fire a hand crossbow in your other hand and fire that?
Light Weapon Property for reference:
"When you take the Attack Action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon in one hand, you can make one extra attack as part of the same Action. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon in the other hand, and you don’t add your Ability Modifier to the extra attack’s damage. You can make this extra attack only once on each of your turns."
Perhaps they'll adjust the ammunition property in the future so you can pre-load weapons?
How is two-weapon fighting intended to work with hand crossbows?
Due to the ammunition property, you have to have a free hand in order to attack with a crossbow, so it seems it's only compatible with melee weapons. Attack with your shortsword in one hand, then drop it so you can now fire the hand crossbow you've been holding in your other hand.
Or is the timing looser than that? Like, can you fire a hand crossbow in one hand, then now that you've done that, you can drop it and pick up and fire a hand crossbow in your other hand and fire that?
Light Weapon Property for reference:
"When you take the Attack Action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon in one hand, you can make one extra attack as part of the same Action. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon in the other hand, and you don’t add your Ability Modifier to the extra attack’s damage. You can make this extra attack only once on each of your turns."
Perhaps they'll adjust the ammunition property in the future so you can pre-load weapons?
That's the big question everyone has. Maybe they will change the ammunition property text. Maybe there will be another feat. Maybe they don't want people using two hand crossbows at all anymore (that would be sad.) Or maybe they just forgot. We'll have to wait and see. But it's definitely worth asking in the survey.
Or maybe they never intended hand crossbow to be dual wielded in 5e and assumed everyone would notice you can't reload your main hand while holding a crossbow in the offhand. The existing rules also say 'When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand.' implying that you need to be holding both weapons when you take the attack action. The UA descriptions are worded in a way that this seems to be an option now, probably because so many people wanted to do it.
Or maybe they never intended hand crossbow to be dual wielded in 5e and assumed everyone would notice you can't reload your main hand while holding a crossbow in the offhand.
Hm...yeah, maybe they originally just gave it the light property in case they wanted to tie other mechanics to the property in the future? Hard to say.
WARNING: Professional Sword-Fighting Nerd Rant Ahead!
The primary benefit of using a second weapon in REALITY is the benefit it provides to defense. Effectively, holding a secondary weapon is primarily useful because it improves your ability to attack without fully exposing yourself to counterstrikes. Or, alternatively, to defend while you counter-attack. If you're curious why people didn't always just carry shields, it's because shields are heavy, bulky, and cumbersome. You are much less mobile when carrying a shield, especially a large shield. In other words, they're a pain in the ass except when you're at war.
So, light weapons should be able to provide a bonus to AC if you opt to use them defensively. And something like "Defensive Duelist" feat (adding your proficiency bonus to AC) should probably be the first tier of two-weapon fighting.
By contrast, Sword & Shield style should greatly improve your defense. It could either add that proficiency bonus *in addition to* the shield bonus or replace it.
Two-handed Weapons should probably do more damage, and/or provide greater reach. Proficiency in the style gives you area effect control in a battle field - they tend to be very hard to get past.
Just a few thoughts. And yes, this would make shields VERY good for those proficient with them. They should be.
The first thing to understand is that D&D is not a fighting simulator. So you don't have to ask for rules that accurately replicate a real fight. The first thing you have to ask of the rules is that they be fun. Obviously it's subjective what makes a fun rule. But I think it's generally more fun when a rule allows you to do something. On the other hand, the rules have to tend to be balanced. If you have a fighting style that lets you decide between adding +1 to your AC (for example) or making two attacks, it seems far superior to any other fighting style. So when designing fighting styles, if you have to choose between balance, fun, and simulation, realistic simulation is the loser in a game like D&D.
Or maybe they never intended hand crossbow to be dual wielded in 5e and assumed everyone would notice you can't reload your main hand while holding a crossbow in the offhand.
Hm...yeah, maybe they originally just gave it the light property in case they wanted to tie other mechanics to the property in the future? Hard to say.
That's they great thing about light crossbows you don't need two weapon fighting you just need the light crossbow expert feat. This means you can take the fighting stile that give you +2 to hit and the feat that will alow you to make a bonus action attack with a bow or crossbow.
Then crossbow expert ignore the reload proerty and when you take the attack or extra attack on your turn..... you have two light crossbows make an extra attack.
SO, again the answer is it doesn't but the good news is their is a feat for that.
Or maybe they never intended hand crossbow to be dual wielded in 5e and assumed everyone would notice you can't reload your main hand while holding a crossbow in the offhand.
Hm...yeah, maybe they originally just gave it the light property in case they wanted to tie other mechanics to the property in the future? Hard to say.
That's they great thing about light crossbows you don't need two weapon fighting you just need the light crossbow expert feat. This means you can take the fighting stile that give you +2 to hit and the feat that will alow you to make a bonus action attack with a bow or crossbow.
Then crossbow expert ignore the reload proerty and when you take the attack or extra attack on your turn..... you have two light crossbows make an extra attack.
SO, again the answer is it doesn't but the good news is their is a feat for that.
Yeah I thought about this late last night too when reading the Crossbow Expert feat again. I actually really like that they are combining elements of different feats so you can just take the one feat you need and not have to try to pull multiple elements together from different places. The only question left is the ammunition property.
Just make part of the dual wielder and show expert feats state that you can reload a light range weapon without a free hand as long as your other hand is holding a light weapon or object. We already have an example of being allowed to manipulate things with full hands in the war caster feat.
I personally don't even care about rules for loading and drawing weapons. For me, just pick what you are doing with each hand at the start of each turn. You want to use a shield and sword this round, then swap the sword out for a focus the next, and then two hand crossbows after that? Go for it. As long as the character is limited to a set of actions each round based on what they have equipped, it doesn't matter how they get there. I would much rather players just pick their mode each turn than deal with ridiculous scenarios of dropping weapons on the ground to fast swap with the rules.
I know for some people they think this is important to immersion. And for a lot of people it's a restriction they bend over backwards to find a loophole to game around. I just don't think any of it is worth the trouble. So I think they should make the crossbow expert feat include a line that says you ignore the rules for reloading. Or make it part of using two light weapons. Or a special rule for hand crossbows that says you can use one in each hand and don't need to worry about how you reload them.
Heck, make repeating hand crossbows that ignore the need to reload at all, and just make them cost a little more. That fits with the whole 'medieval gunslinger' vibe anyway. Offer a new weapon and it's all solved.
Or maybe they never intended hand crossbow to be dual wielded in 5e and assumed everyone would notice you can't reload your main hand while holding a crossbow in the offhand.
Hm...yeah, maybe they originally just gave it the light property in case they wanted to tie other mechanics to the property in the future? Hard to say.
That's they great thing about light crossbows you don't need two weapon fighting you just need the light crossbow expert feat. This means you can take the fighting stile that give you +2 to hit and the feat that will alow you to make a bonus action attack with a bow or crossbow.
Then crossbow expert ignore the reload proerty and when you take the attack or extra attack on your turn..... you have two light crossbows make an extra attack.
SO, again the answer is it doesn't but the good news is their is a feat for that.
Yeah I thought about this late last night too when reading the Crossbow Expert feat again. I actually really like that they are combining elements of different feats so you can just take the one feat you need and not have to try to pull multiple elements together from different places. The only question left is the ammunition property.
Yeh, but like the others said how tracks amo.
Oh plus since ranger is a caster there is a fun cantrip that can make your bolts magical and increase their damage from d6 to d10. This means at level 5 you get to make three or with a generous DM 4 d10+widsom attacks each turn at level 5. (other wise it would just be bonous action spell then 3 attacks are 1d10 +wis and your last on is )
Because two weapon fighting doesn't apply to your extra attack (and I don't know why it doesn't but light crossbow expert dose?) this means your only making three attacks at level 5.
Great weapon master will be making two 2d6 or 1d12 attacks per turn. I hope in the next UA for one dnd they fix this, but I have a feeling that we won't see the warrior classes till next year. Is the battle master coming back? Are we going to have the feat that gives maneuvers again? Would wizards remove the best fighter class from the core rule book just to sell more supplemental products?
To sum it up if two weapon fighting worked with both attack and extra attack then I would be fine. It doesn't though which breaks the fantasy but hey look the crossbow feat dose exactly what the to weapon should. Plus, will monks be able to flurry of blows with two weapons? I just wish they had taken the same time with two weapons fighting as crossbow expert.
We had the following question come up last night - can I punch someone twice in a round? We have a Ranger in the group who took the Sailor background and got the tavern brawler feat. For melee combat, he has chosen just to use unarmed strike since the feat gives him the extra damage. The problem is, we couldn't find anything in the new rules that would let him punch with each fist in a single round. They seem to have taken away the bonus action off-hand attack with the new "light" weapon property, but unarmed strikes don't have a designation of "light". So how can you punch twice - once with each fist? I guess if he had a dagger in each hand, he'd be able to punch twice. :P
We had the following question come up last night - can I punch someone twice in a round? We have a Ranger in the group who took the Sailor background and got the tavern brawler feat. For melee combat, he has chosen just to use unarmed strike since the feat gives him the extra damage. The problem is, we couldn't find anything in the new rules that would let him punch with each fist in a single round. They seem to have taken away the bonus action off-hand attack with the new "light" weapon property, but unarmed strikes don't have a designation of "light". So how can you punch twice - once with each fist? I guess if he had a dagger in each hand, he'd be able to punch twice. :P
You need the Extra Attack feature to attack twice with the Attack action using Unarmed Strikes; they don't qualify for Two-Weapon Fighting, even in the 2014 PH.
The Martial Arts monk feature is the only thing I'm aware of that lets you attack with an Unarmed Strike as a bonus action.
Pretty easy to house-rule though, or reflavor light weapons as "brass knuckles" or something.
I would say that is something to bring up in the play test. Unarmed combat should have weapon properties that make it more fun, don't lock things behind class unless necessary for balance, and this isn't. I'd suggest it should both be light and finesse.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
How is two-weapon fighting intended to work with hand crossbows?
Due to the ammunition property, you have to have a free hand in order to attack with a crossbow, so it seems it's only compatible with melee weapons. Attack with your shortsword in one hand, then drop it so you can now fire the hand crossbow you've been holding in your other hand.
Or is the timing looser than that? Like, can you fire a hand crossbow in one hand, then now that you've done that, you can drop it and pick up and fire a hand crossbow in your other hand and fire that?
Light Weapon Property for reference:
"When you take the Attack Action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon in one hand, you can make one extra attack as part of the same Action. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon in the other hand, and you don’t add your Ability Modifier to the extra attack’s damage. You can make this extra attack only once on each of your turns."
Perhaps they'll adjust the ammunition property in the future so you can pre-load weapons?
That's the big question everyone has. Maybe they will change the ammunition property text. Maybe there will be another feat. Maybe they don't want people using two hand crossbows at all anymore (that would be sad.) Or maybe they just forgot. We'll have to wait and see. But it's definitely worth asking in the survey.
Or maybe they never intended hand crossbow to be dual wielded in 5e and assumed everyone would notice you can't reload your main hand while holding a crossbow in the offhand. The existing rules also say 'When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand.' implying that you need to be holding both weapons when you take the attack action. The UA descriptions are worded in a way that this seems to be an option now, probably because so many people wanted to do it.
Hm...yeah, maybe they originally just gave it the light property in case they wanted to tie other mechanics to the property in the future? Hard to say.
The first thing to understand is that D&D is not a fighting simulator. So you don't have to ask for rules that accurately replicate a real fight. The first thing you have to ask of the rules is that they be fun. Obviously it's subjective what makes a fun rule. But I think it's generally more fun when a rule allows you to do something.
On the other hand, the rules have to tend to be balanced. If you have a fighting style that lets you decide between adding +1 to your AC (for example) or making two attacks, it seems far superior to any other fighting style. So when designing fighting styles, if you have to choose between balance, fun, and simulation, realistic simulation is the loser in a game like D&D.
That's they great thing about light crossbows you don't need two weapon fighting you just need the light crossbow expert feat. This means you can take the fighting stile that give you +2 to hit and the feat that will alow you to make a bonus action attack with a bow or crossbow.
Then crossbow expert ignore the reload proerty and when you take the attack or extra attack on your turn..... you have two light crossbows make an extra attack.
SO, again the answer is it doesn't but the good news is their is a feat for that.
Yeah I thought about this late last night too when reading the Crossbow Expert feat again. I actually really like that they are combining elements of different feats so you can just take the one feat you need and not have to try to pull multiple elements together from different places. The only question left is the ammunition property.
Just make part of the dual wielder and show expert feats state that you can reload a light range weapon without a free hand as long as your other hand is holding a light weapon or object. We already have an example of being allowed to manipulate things with full hands in the war caster feat.
I personally don't even care about rules for loading and drawing weapons. For me, just pick what you are doing with each hand at the start of each turn. You want to use a shield and sword this round, then swap the sword out for a focus the next, and then two hand crossbows after that? Go for it. As long as the character is limited to a set of actions each round based on what they have equipped, it doesn't matter how they get there. I would much rather players just pick their mode each turn than deal with ridiculous scenarios of dropping weapons on the ground to fast swap with the rules.
I know for some people they think this is important to immersion. And for a lot of people it's a restriction they bend over backwards to find a loophole to game around. I just don't think any of it is worth the trouble. So I think they should make the crossbow expert feat include a line that says you ignore the rules for reloading. Or make it part of using two light weapons. Or a special rule for hand crossbows that says you can use one in each hand and don't need to worry about how you reload them.
Heck, make repeating hand crossbows that ignore the need to reload at all, and just make them cost a little more. That fits with the whole 'medieval gunslinger' vibe anyway. Offer a new weapon and it's all solved.
Yeh, but like the others said how tracks amo.
Oh plus since ranger is a caster there is a fun cantrip that can make your bolts magical and increase their damage from d6 to d10. This means at level 5 you get to make three or with a generous DM 4 d10+widsom attacks each turn at level 5. (other wise it would just be bonous action spell then 3 attacks are 1d10 +wis and your last on is )
Because two weapon fighting doesn't apply to your extra attack (and I don't know why it doesn't but light crossbow expert dose?) this means your only making three attacks at level 5.
Great weapon master will be making two 2d6 or 1d12 attacks per turn. I hope in the next UA for one dnd they fix this, but I have a feeling that we won't see the warrior classes till next year. Is the battle master coming back? Are we going to have the feat that gives maneuvers again? Would wizards remove the best fighter class from the core rule book just to sell more supplemental products?
To sum it up if two weapon fighting worked with both attack and extra attack then I would be fine. It doesn't though which breaks the fantasy but hey look the crossbow feat dose exactly what the to weapon should. Plus, will monks be able to flurry of blows with two weapons? I just wish they had taken the same time with two weapons fighting as crossbow expert.
Weapons have not been covered yet so we have no idea if the ammo property works like it used to or if it even exists.
Right. I'm really not sweating it until we learn more. A lot will be answered as other UAs appear.
We had the following question come up last night - can I punch someone twice in a round? We have a Ranger in the group who took the Sailor background and got the tavern brawler feat. For melee combat, he has chosen just to use unarmed strike since the feat gives him the extra damage. The problem is, we couldn't find anything in the new rules that would let him punch with each fist in a single round. They seem to have taken away the bonus action off-hand attack with the new "light" weapon property, but unarmed strikes don't have a designation of "light". So how can you punch twice - once with each fist? I guess if he had a dagger in each hand, he'd be able to punch twice. :P
You need the Extra Attack feature to attack twice with the Attack action using Unarmed Strikes; they don't qualify for Two-Weapon Fighting, even in the 2014 PH.
The Martial Arts monk feature is the only thing I'm aware of that lets you attack with an Unarmed Strike as a bonus action.
Pretty easy to house-rule though, or reflavor light weapons as "brass knuckles" or something.
I would say that is something to bring up in the play test. Unarmed combat should have weapon properties that make it more fun, don't lock things behind class unless necessary for balance, and this isn't. I'd suggest it should both be light and finesse.