Sorcery Incarnate - I'll admit, the spell itself is hot garbage. A 5th level slot to gain a few Sorcery Points and also advantage on spell attack rolls? No thanks. However, I notice that it does seem to fuel subclass abilities while active, so I am willing to be open. To make this more viable, I would suggest removing the concentration. It's a 5th level spell slot, you have a limited number of those and plenty of other things you might want to do with them, and there are easier ways to gain advantage on an attack roll.
While 5th-level does seem high, it is giving you sorcery points (an average of 2 or 3, so effectively making this a 4th- or 3rd-level spell), plus guaranteed advantage and double Metamagic for at least your own turn. I think it does need an extra sweetener though, I'd like to see it grant advantage on concentration checks, so you're less likely to cast it then stub a toe and lose it.
I only take a bit of exception to this because getting 2-3 sorcery points back when casting incarnate is going to be hard pressed to equal lower tier spell slot consumption, it would be better off simply not giving back sorcery points and instead being a third level spell.
Advantage on attack rolls is lack luster as well as this power is kicking on lvl 9 and attack spells stopped being relavent way earlier, even more so when you consider your now spending a 5th lvl spell slot for advantage on those spells.
And lastly duel metamagics on your turn don't forget your casting this spell on your turn so it's turn one is lame, turn two would essentially be just catching up to casting a pair of spells with a single metamagic and turn three we're now ahead in the amount of meta dropped. So unless that 2nd turn dual meta is just earth shattering your not doing much till the third spell cast.. again at the cost of your 5th lvl slot.
This thing is trying to compete with wall of force, conjure elemental, animate objects, dominate person, hold monster and it's laughably bad in comparison
The new version is so convoluted I would rather they just remove it as an option so I as DM don't have to adjudicate it.
It's not "convoluted" at all. "You know that spell I cast last turn? I'm casting it again, but with sorcery points"
Yeah but like... why do you need metamagic to do that? You can literally just make a spell slot next turn to do that via Font of Magic
That requires an extra bonus action, so you're saving action economy and sorcery points with the new Twinned
I'm not saying it's a great metamagic choice, but it's certainly not convoluted
It's an awful choice compared to the old version. Saving a bonus action does next to nothing, if you're casting a leveled spell next turn you weren't using that bonus action for anything meaningful anyway. Old Twinned had at least the great utility of letting you concentrate on two copies of the same spell, and that's gone now. I don't disagree with Crawford's point that it was undercosted for what it did, but gutting it like this wasn't the answer.
The new version is so convoluted I would rather they just remove it as an option so I as DM don't have to adjudicate it.
It's not "convoluted" at all. "You know that spell I cast last turn? I'm casting it again, but with sorcery points"
Yeah but like... why do you need metamagic to do that? You can literally just make a spell slot next turn to do that via Font of Magic
That requires an extra bonus action, so you're saving action economy and sorcery points with the new Twinned
I'm not saying it's a great metamagic choice, but it's certainly not convoluted
It's an awful choice compared to the old version. Saving a bonus action does next to nothing, if you're casting a leveled spell next turn you weren't using that bonus action for anything meaningful anyway. Old Twinned had at least the great utility of letting you concentrate on two copies of the same spell, and that's gone now. I don't disagree with Crawford's point that it was undercosted for what it did, but gutting it like this wasn't the answer.
Why are you quoting me on this? You're arguing against the air, my dude
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The new version is so convoluted I would rather they just remove it as an option so I as DM don't have to adjudicate it.
It's not "convoluted" at all. "You know that spell I cast last turn? I'm casting it again, but with sorcery points"
Yeah but like... why do you need metamagic to do that? You can literally just make a spell slot next turn to do that via Font of Magic
That requires an extra bonus action, so you're saving action economy and sorcery points with the new Twinned
I'm not saying it's a great metamagic choice, but it's certainly not convoluted
It's an awful choice compared to the old version. Saving a bonus action does next to nothing, if you're casting a leveled spell next turn you weren't using that bonus action for anything meaningful anyway. Old Twinned had at least the great utility of letting you concentrate on two copies of the same spell, and that's gone now. I don't disagree with Crawford's point that it was undercosted for what it did, but gutting it like this wasn't the answer.
Why are you quoting me on this? You're arguing against the air, my dude
Because you quoted me? That's how forum conversations work? 🤨
I'm not "arguing against you" specifically, I'm explaining my opinion on the new design and building on what was said about it before. I agree with you that it being "convoluted" isn't the primary issue with it, but that doesn't mean I can't talk about the design of the feature more generally.
Me: It's not that convoluted You: It's terrible. Why would you even take it Me: I didn't say it was good, just that's it not complicated You: It's awful! Me: ...OK?
Great talk
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Me: It's not that convoluted You: It's terrible. Why would you even take it Me: I didn't say it was good, just that's it not complicated You: It's awful! Me: ...OK?
Great talk
Almost as if not every conversation has to be 100% disagreement. Why is this so bewildering to you?
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Me: It's not that convoluted You: It's terrible. Why would you even take it Me: I didn't say it was good, just that's it not complicated You: It's awful! Me: ...OK?
Great talk
Almost as if not every conversation has to be 100% disagreement. Why is this so bewildering to you?
Leading a post with a statement like "It's an awful choice compared to the old version" strongly implies the person you're responding to said something to the contrary
If you don't want people to think you're arguing with them, maybe don't be argumentative
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Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter) Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Me: It's not that convoluted You: It's terrible. Why would you even take it Me: I didn't say it was good, just that's it not complicated You: It's awful! Me: ...OK?
Great talk
Almost as if not every conversation has to be 100% disagreement. Why is this so bewildering to you?
Leading a post with a statement like "It's an awful choice compared to the old version" strongly implies the person you're responding to said something to the contrary
If you don't want people to think you're arguing with them, maybe don't be argumentative
I can't control what you choose to read into my posts. "It's an awful choice compared to the old version" is my honest opinion of that feature's proposed design.
Guys, do what you want, but getting into arguments about whether or not you quoted, or how you respond to or read each other, does not contribute absolutely nothing to the debate.
That happens to me many times too. But that's why I think sometimes it's okay for someone outside the conversation to point out that it's nothing but noise.
So I agree with the sorcerer's incarnate. I think this may be part of the issue of making class features spells. They wanted it to not appear till level 9, so they made it a 5th level spell to match when you get 5th level spells. It is a great idea with poor execution.
While twin spell being weaker in some aspects sucks I want to say the rest of the meta magics are crazy good, Careful spell is buffed, Distant spell is insane, Extend spell is amazing now, Heighten spell is cheaper AND better. The meta magics alone are crazy strong.
I was broadly pretty confused with how keen they were to put class features down as spells in this UA, to be honest. It certainly made more sense with the Sorcerer than the Wizard, but unfortunately, I was also hugely disappointed with what they have done to the Sorcerer. That might be, in part, just a bit of shock factor for me: I've been broadly pretty happy with the changes to all of the classes so far in the UAs, so at first I thought I might be overreacting when the Sorcerer disappointed me so much because I hadn't seen it coming. Alas, my opinion hasn't softened over with time...
Mandatory spells on the spell list? Subclass features revolving around those spells? Doesn't matter what Sorcerer you want to be or what subclass you pick, it looks as though you're going to be orienting yourself around the same handful of spells as every other Sorcerer. They have stated that they want Sorcerers to have more access to spells, but simultaneously they've loaded the class up with mandatory spells that appear to take precedence for the sake of getting a lot of the uniqueness out of Sorcerers. It's a bizarre direction.
Also, not strictly related to Sorcerers, but I liked the streamlined Arcane spell lists. I don't think 'Vicious Mockery' and 'Dissonant Whisper' needed to be made Bard-exclusive, and with the exception of 'Eldritch Blast' and the pact-turned-cantrip feature of Warlocks, I'm really disliking this new direction of throwing core spells at these classes. It negates the simplicity offered by these universal spell lists, and flies in the face of the customisability of the classes that makes them so much fun to revisit with new concepts.
Arcane Apotheosis is the biggest issue with Sorcerer. It is just far too strong. They need to tone it down. Making Incarnate a 5th level spell is too much, if it also let you cast another spell as part of the action I would give it a thumbs up honestly, but as is it is too slow.
Twin spell got nerfed for the same reason action surge got nerfed. They didn’t want two leveled spells in the same turn. The only way I see them giving something like the old twinned spell back is to make it only work on cantrips. The old Twinned was super strong, the new twinned is kinda weak and should probably be called repeat spell.
Draconic wings is bad now. It needs a major buff if it’s not going to be active all the time.
I like the new sorceror. Yes the capstone is probably going to get cut down to something less powerful. I think that folks are getting bent out of shape about twinned spell because it was such a go to for most folks. By nerfing it so it’s clearly much weaker it’s forcing us to look at the other metamagics and see what they are like and how good they actually are. Personally I seldom took twinned preferring subtle, quickened and transmuted instead. Now, with the built in spells allowing me to choose the energy I want with the dedicated spells I’m exploring replacements for transmuted.
I like the new sorceror. Yes the capstone is probably going to get cut down to something less powerful. I think that folks are getting bent out of shape about twinned spell because it was such a go to for most folks. By nerfing it so it’s clearly much weaker it’s forcing us to look at the other metamagics and see what they are like and how good they actually are. Personally I seldom took twinned preferring subtle, quickened and transmuted instead. Now, with the built in spells allowing me to choose the energy I want with the dedicated spells I’m exploring replacements for transmuted.
Honestly, I'm in the exact opposite camp. But, on the off-chance any of you have actually cared about me, you'd know I'm basically only sticking with D&D right now because I'm in ongoing games that haven't ended yet. IMO, the new stuff tells me that the staff doesn't really pay attention or care about the playerbase. Like, it's not that, say, sorcerous burst is BAD, it's WHY it's bad that's the issue. It's damage is low, it targets AC, and the only unique thing it really offers is elemental flexibility. Mind Sliver targets a save and makes it harder for the foe to succeed in their own saves (and is of a rarely resisted type to boot) while fire bolt hits AC as well but offers a d10 instead of a d6 with a 1/6 chance for a second d6. Like, if they'd made it so that, I dunno, SB targeted a save, or made it so that the next sorce of damage from that element did an additional d4 damage, or just... anything... I'd at least accept it as a decent upgrade. But as-is it feels like they knew sorcs were underpowered but didn't bother to even talk to sorc players to find out why/how to fix it.
Now, I'm not gonna be arrogant here and assume I'm some paragon of knowledge and insight. I'm basically looking at patch notes and trying to project how the game is going to play when the patch isn't even DONE yet. I could so easily be wrong. But considering that they thought that SV was a good choice for a THIRD LEVEL spell-slot when the max I could POSSIBLY heal with it is 17 HP (assuming I have both max CHA and max roll) and remove one of three status effects (Why not nix the verbal component and let it clear silence as well? At least then I could use it to clear a condition that would actively prevent me from casting), I don't think I'm wrong.
I like the new sorceror. Yes the capstone is probably going to get cut down to something less powerful. I think that folks are getting bent out of shape about twinned spell because it was such a go to for most folks. By nerfing it so it’s clearly much weaker it’s forcing us to look at the other metamagics and see what they are like and how good they actually are. Personally I seldom took twinned preferring subtle, quickened and transmuted instead. Now, with the built in spells allowing me to choose the energy I want with the dedicated spells I’m exploring replacements for transmuted.
Honestly, I'm in the exact opposite camp. But, on the off-chance any of you have actually cared about me, you'd know I'm basically only sticking with D&D right now because I'm in ongoing games that haven't ended yet. IMO, the new stuff tells me that the staff doesn't really pay attention or care about the playerbase. Like, it's not that, say, sorcerous burst is BAD, it's WHY it's bad that's the issue. It's damage is low, it targets AC, and the only unique thing it really offers is elemental flexibility. Mind Sliver targets a save and makes it harder for the foe to succeed in their own saves (and is of a rarely resisted type to boot) while fire bolt hits AC as well but offers a d10 instead of a d6 with a 1/6 chance for a second d6. Like, if they'd made it so that, I dunno, SB targeted a save, or made it so that the next sorce of damage from that element did an additional d4 damage, or just... anything... I'd at least accept it as a decent upgrade. But as-is it feels like they knew sorcs were underpowered but didn't bother to even talk to sorc players to find out why/how to fix it.
Now, I'm not gonna be arrogant here and assume I'm some paragon of knowledge and insight. I'm basically looking at patch notes and trying to project how the game is going to play when the patch isn't even DONE yet. I could so easily be wrong. But considering that they thought that SV was a good choice for a THIRD LEVEL spell-slot when the max I could POSSIBLY heal with it is 17 HP (assuming I have both max CHA and max roll) and remove one of three status effects (Why not nix the verbal component and let it clear silence as well? At least then I could use it to clear a condition that would actively prevent me from casting), I don't think I'm wrong.
What’s weird is most players prefer to target AC. It means they roll not the DM. As for the damage it should be 2d4 that explode. That’s far more fun and likely to happen.
SV is literally a filler ability. Sorcerers didn’t lose anything to get it. What I’m learning from these forums is everyone is a power gamer without knowing it. They look at these new features that were formerly dead levels and expect them to add power to their favorite class. These features are meant to add versatility. Some do fall flat. Some are direct nerfs. This isn’t exciting, but it’s not bad. That Dragon wing nerf is something to be upset about.
I like the new sorceror. Yes the capstone is probably going to get cut down to something less powerful. I think that folks are getting bent out of shape about twinned spell because it was such a go to for most folks. By nerfing it so it’s clearly much weaker it’s forcing us to look at the other metamagics and see what they are like and how good they actually are. Personally I seldom took twinned preferring subtle, quickened and transmuted instead. Now, with the built in spells allowing me to choose the energy I want with the dedicated spells I’m exploring replacements for transmuted.
Honestly, I'm in the exact opposite camp. But, on the off-chance any of you have actually cared about me, you'd know I'm basically only sticking with D&D right now because I'm in ongoing games that haven't ended yet. IMO, the new stuff tells me that the staff doesn't really pay attention or care about the playerbase. Like, it's not that, say, sorcerous burst is BAD, it's WHY it's bad that's the issue. It's damage is low, it targets AC, and the only unique thing it really offers is elemental flexibility. Mind Sliver targets a save and makes it harder for the foe to succeed in their own saves (and is of a rarely resisted type to boot) while fire bolt hits AC as well but offers a d10 instead of a d6 with a 1/6 chance for a second d6. Like, if they'd made it so that, I dunno, SB targeted a save, or made it so that the next sorce of damage from that element did an additional d4 damage, or just... anything... I'd at least accept it as a decent upgrade. But as-is it feels like they knew sorcs were underpowered but didn't bother to even talk to sorc players to find out why/how to fix it.
Now, I'm not gonna be arrogant here and assume I'm some paragon of knowledge and insight. I'm basically looking at patch notes and trying to project how the game is going to play when the patch isn't even DONE yet. I could so easily be wrong. But considering that they thought that SV was a good choice for a THIRD LEVEL spell-slot when the max I could POSSIBLY heal with it is 17 HP (assuming I have both max CHA and max roll) and remove one of three status effects (Why not nix the verbal component and let it clear silence as well? At least then I could use it to clear a condition that would actively prevent me from casting), I don't think I'm wrong.
What’s weird is most players prefer to target AC. It means they roll not the DM. As for the damage it should be 2d4 that explode. That’s far more fun and likely to happen.
SV is literally a filler ability. Sorcerers didn’t lose anything to get it. What I’m learning from these forums is everyone is a power gamer without knowing it. They look at these new features that were formerly dead levels and expect them to add power to their favorite class. These features are meant to add versatility. Some do fall flat. Some are direct nerfs. This isn’t exciting, but it’s not bad. That Dragon wing nerf is something to be upset about.
Personally I love most of the new sorcerer. Getting a cantrip that does damage and has this small chance to do extra and does what ever type I want leaves me free to pick OTHER cantrips besides damage cantrips that I want. So much cool flavor I can get. Chaos Bolt is in that same boat for me. Is it the best damage spell, no but I auto have it for free and if I didn't want to pick damage stuff at the start I still have it to fall back on if I need it. Sorcerous Vitatility is a little weak for its level, but as a Sorc you don't have a lot of healing options to begin with and one that ALSO cleanses a bad debuff that is pretty solid. Arcane eruption is fantastic decent damage with a rider is awesome. Sorcerer incarnate is the only weird one for me that I think is overly costed. Meanwhile Arcane Apotheosis is way too powerful and does not need to exist.
So my player enjoyed the playtest but was new to sorcerers so acknowledges they didn't really fully get to grips with all the features.
They got confused reading it was a Prepared caster when it's clearly a Spontaneous Spells Known class. I can't comprehend the change in wording myself.
Limited spell choice was definitely an issue but I think a better option for solving it would be to give subclass specific spells known. This has the dual effect of being thematic and allowing subclasses to gain spells outside of the Mage list. Innate Sorcery would offset the loss in spells known before subclass.
Personally I think Sorcery Points should be available at level 1 as the core sorcerous feature but understand that would require some balancing against single level dips.
Metamagic needed more known but the progression is awful. There should spread it out with an additional known every 3 levels so that you know most by the end.
Initially reading Arcane Eruption my player thought it was centred on themselves and preferred the visuals of playing it that way after I corrected them. In retrospect I think this would be a suitably thematic nerf considering the power of the status effects.
Sorcerous Vitality was a good little addition for survivability.
For Sorcery Incarnate I like that they're tieing subclass features into it, however, they need to either make the features powerful enough to warrant a 5th level concentration spell, or make it a lower level spell that is easier to employ. I'm going to playtest it not returning SPs but completely removing the SP cost of Metamagic while you have Incarnate up. EDIT: Might look at making the subclass feature better as well to warrant using Sorcery Incarnate.
I am almost agree with this new Sorcerer, let's review point by point:
- Font of Magic:
Continues to be disappointing. I think many people agrees that the Sorcerer should be more Power Points based, but this makes hard the multi-class stuff, and giving everyone the PP option gives to everyone even a better option than the exclusive FoM one.
This ability should be the one used to convert the Sorcerer into the PP user but fitting well with the multi-class rules. Some (or all) options from listed could be applied:
Change it to free action instead bonus action.
Allow to convert multiple spell slots at once instead one per round.
Integrate the new Twinned spell into FoM, instead being a metamagic. This makes Sorcery Points (SP) like some kind of casting resource representing that if casting the same effect consecutively is cheaper. I.e., if you want to cast 3rd level spells, you need to convert 2lvl2 + 1lvl1 spell slots -> 5 SP, then 5 SP -> lvl3 spell slot, with this option you only need 1lvl2 + 1lvl1 spell slots -> 3 SP, then 3 SP -> twin previous 3rd level spell.
This way the FoM could make feel more like the Sorcerer casting resource is spell slots + SP joint.
- Spells:
Sorcerous Burst: seems OK for me. Making average the base damage is a bit lower than others using d8 or greater, but you can choose the element. This makes you can avoid resistances or take advantage of weakness, doubling its damage in those cases. So if you know them it improves greatly.
Chaos Bolt: this one must be changed. It is not good to have to look a table each time you cast, that should be avoided. Change to Sorcerous Bolt doing the same but allowing you to choose the type of damage. Less damage than Chromatic Orb, but does not require material component.
Sorcerous Vitality: is fine if you mix with Twinned spell casting it in 2 rounds, if not is overrun the cost. Also should allow to upcast to get regeneration effect. Maybe change the casting time to bonus action.
Sorcery Incarnate: taking the concentration does not feel good. At that point it competes with things like fly or hasting a comrade. Maybe make it concentration dependant, but add the point "Does not count for the number of concentrating spells but if you lose concentration the spell ends". The things it provides are really good.
Arcane Eruption: really nice, it makes you to save 1 known spell for AoE damage until you want to use your 3rd level slots. Also this spell confirms that the Bolt should allow to choose the type of damage too.
- Metamagic:
Like the new options in general. But should get 3 at level 2, then get 1 every X levels to have 6 at level 13 (about 1 every 3 levels).
About the new Twinned, I like it very much the way it works, made to save resources. But this new version, as mentioned, I'd integrate it into the Font of Magic ability.
- Subclasses:
I'd not make subclasses abilities dependant of Sorcery Incarnate. This breaks backward compatibility, so we had to wait for all subclasses to be revised, instead only moving their abilities to the new levels they are acquired.
Also, after playing the Aberrant one, I have much clear that each sorcerer subclass should provide extra related spells, at least 1 of each level 0-5, that you could change by other related ones (element, school, etc.). I.e. the pyromancer could get: control flames, burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire, immolation, and could change them for any other "fire" spell.
- Arcane Apotheosis:
I think is not bad getting Wish without losing the alternative usages, but for the money one. One main rule to maintain the balance is not allowing any kind of unlimited resource option. All the other options looks fine to me, remember that using that way takes the sorcerer out of play, STR 3, getting damage if casting spells, during days. So I'd change it could lose the creating valued item option only.
About using a lower level slot for replicating with Wish, I'd limit it in some way. It is like if you could cast any 1-8 level spell of any domain while you save your level 9 spell slot, so why then the known spells?, now is like you know all of them. I have to admit I have not though much about it, because who plays adventures reaching level 18? But looking at the own Wish spell, maybe a good option could be if using a lower level slot, taking the indicated damage in spell description (1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell), or equal to the Evoker overchannel ability, so another use for Sorcery Vitality.
Edit: Well after reading it again, I am agree with the ability. It allows you to cast any extra level 1-8 spell per day, for a 18th level ability seems good to me. Don't know why I though you could use this way as many times you want.
Twin spell in 5e is fine. why change it, it's kinda iconic for the sorc.
If they think it's too strong maybe something like the following.
Remove concentration spells from the effect.
Add new meta magic option that is basically what the new twinned spell is, but for concentration spells only.
What ever they do, I hope they remember, one well placed scilance or a resist/miss looses a LOT of rescources. Thats a high risk for high reward ability.
The UAC twinned spell sucks,
And if it's because its too good (compared to the others) MAKE THE OTHERS BETTER
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I only take a bit of exception to this because getting 2-3 sorcery points back when casting incarnate is going to be hard pressed to equal lower tier spell slot consumption, it would be better off simply not giving back sorcery points and instead being a third level spell.
Advantage on attack rolls is lack luster as well as this power is kicking on lvl 9 and attack spells stopped being relavent way earlier, even more so when you consider your now spending a 5th lvl spell slot for advantage on those spells.
And lastly duel metamagics on your turn don't forget your casting this spell on your turn so it's turn one is lame, turn two would essentially be just catching up to casting a pair of spells with a single metamagic and turn three we're now ahead in the amount of meta dropped. So unless that 2nd turn dual meta is just earth shattering your not doing much till the third spell cast.. again at the cost of your 5th lvl slot.
This thing is trying to compete with wall of force, conjure elemental, animate objects, dominate person, hold monster and it's laughably bad in comparison
It's an awful choice compared to the old version. Saving a bonus action does next to nothing, if you're casting a leveled spell next turn you weren't using that bonus action for anything meaningful anyway. Old Twinned had at least the great utility of letting you concentrate on two copies of the same spell, and that's gone now. I don't disagree with Crawford's point that it was undercosted for what it did, but gutting it like this wasn't the answer.
Why are you quoting me on this? You're arguing against the air, my dude
Active characters:
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Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Because you quoted me? That's how forum conversations work? 🤨
I'm not "arguing against you" specifically, I'm explaining my opinion on the new design and building on what was said about it before. I agree with you that it being "convoluted" isn't the primary issue with it, but that doesn't mean I can't talk about the design of the feature more generally.
Me: It's not that convoluted
You: It's terrible. Why would you even take it
Me: I didn't say it was good, just that's it not complicated
You: It's awful!
Me: ...OK?
Great talk
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Almost as if not every conversation has to be 100% disagreement. Why is this so bewildering to you?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Leading a post with a statement like "It's an awful choice compared to the old version" strongly implies the person you're responding to said something to the contrary
If you don't want people to think you're arguing with them, maybe don't be argumentative
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I can't control what you choose to read into my posts. "It's an awful choice compared to the old version" is my honest opinion of that feature's proposed design.
Guys, do what you want, but getting into arguments about whether or not you quoted, or how you respond to or read each other, does not contribute absolutely nothing to the debate.
That happens to me many times too. But that's why I think sometimes it's okay for someone outside the conversation to point out that it's nothing but noise.
So I agree with the sorcerer's incarnate. I think this may be part of the issue of making class features spells. They wanted it to not appear till level 9, so they made it a 5th level spell to match when you get 5th level spells. It is a great idea with poor execution.
While twin spell being weaker in some aspects sucks I want to say the rest of the meta magics are crazy good, Careful spell is buffed, Distant spell is insane, Extend spell is amazing now, Heighten spell is cheaper AND better. The meta magics alone are crazy strong.
I was broadly pretty confused with how keen they were to put class features down as spells in this UA, to be honest. It certainly made more sense with the Sorcerer than the Wizard, but unfortunately, I was also hugely disappointed with what they have done to the Sorcerer. That might be, in part, just a bit of shock factor for me: I've been broadly pretty happy with the changes to all of the classes so far in the UAs, so at first I thought I might be overreacting when the Sorcerer disappointed me so much because I hadn't seen it coming. Alas, my opinion hasn't softened over with time...
Mandatory spells on the spell list? Subclass features revolving around those spells? Doesn't matter what Sorcerer you want to be or what subclass you pick, it looks as though you're going to be orienting yourself around the same handful of spells as every other Sorcerer. They have stated that they want Sorcerers to have more access to spells, but simultaneously they've loaded the class up with mandatory spells that appear to take precedence for the sake of getting a lot of the uniqueness out of Sorcerers. It's a bizarre direction.
Also, not strictly related to Sorcerers, but I liked the streamlined Arcane spell lists. I don't think 'Vicious Mockery' and 'Dissonant Whisper' needed to be made Bard-exclusive, and with the exception of 'Eldritch Blast' and the pact-turned-cantrip feature of Warlocks, I'm really disliking this new direction of throwing core spells at these classes. It negates the simplicity offered by these universal spell lists, and flies in the face of the customisability of the classes that makes them so much fun to revisit with new concepts.
Arcane Apotheosis is the biggest issue with Sorcerer. It is just far too strong. They need to tone it down. Making Incarnate a 5th level spell is too much, if it also let you cast another spell as part of the action I would give it a thumbs up honestly, but as is it is too slow.
Twin spell got nerfed for the same reason action surge got nerfed. They didn’t want two leveled spells in the same turn. The only way I see them giving something like the old twinned spell back is to make it only work on cantrips. The old Twinned was super strong, the new twinned is kinda weak and should probably be called repeat spell.
Draconic wings is bad now. It needs a major buff if it’s not going to be active all the time.
I’m okay with with Sorcerer overall.
I like the new sorceror. Yes the capstone is probably going to get cut down to something less powerful. I think that folks are getting bent out of shape about twinned spell because it was such a go to for most folks. By nerfing it so it’s clearly much weaker it’s forcing us to look at the other metamagics and see what they are like and how good they actually are. Personally I seldom took twinned preferring subtle, quickened and transmuted instead. Now, with the built in spells allowing me to choose the energy I want with the dedicated spells I’m exploring replacements for transmuted.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Honestly, I'm in the exact opposite camp. But, on the off-chance any of you have actually cared about me, you'd know I'm basically only sticking with D&D right now because I'm in ongoing games that haven't ended yet. IMO, the new stuff tells me that the staff doesn't really pay attention or care about the playerbase. Like, it's not that, say, sorcerous burst is BAD, it's WHY it's bad that's the issue. It's damage is low, it targets AC, and the only unique thing it really offers is elemental flexibility. Mind Sliver targets a save and makes it harder for the foe to succeed in their own saves (and is of a rarely resisted type to boot) while fire bolt hits AC as well but offers a d10 instead of a d6 with a 1/6 chance for a second d6. Like, if they'd made it so that, I dunno, SB targeted a save, or made it so that the next sorce of damage from that element did an additional d4 damage, or just... anything... I'd at least accept it as a decent upgrade. But as-is it feels like they knew sorcs were underpowered but didn't bother to even talk to sorc players to find out why/how to fix it.
Now, I'm not gonna be arrogant here and assume I'm some paragon of knowledge and insight. I'm basically looking at patch notes and trying to project how the game is going to play when the patch isn't even DONE yet. I could so easily be wrong. But considering that they thought that SV was a good choice for a THIRD LEVEL spell-slot when the max I could POSSIBLY heal with it is 17 HP (assuming I have both max CHA and max roll) and remove one of three status effects (Why not nix the verbal component and let it clear silence as well? At least then I could use it to clear a condition that would actively prevent me from casting), I don't think I'm wrong.
What’s weird is most players prefer to target AC. It means they roll not the DM. As for the damage it should be 2d4 that explode. That’s far more fun and likely to happen.
SV is literally a filler ability. Sorcerers didn’t lose anything to get it. What I’m learning from these forums is everyone is a power gamer without knowing it. They look at these new features that were formerly dead levels and expect them to add power to their favorite class. These features are meant to add versatility. Some do fall flat. Some are direct nerfs. This isn’t exciting, but it’s not bad. That Dragon wing nerf is something to be upset about.
Personally I love most of the new sorcerer. Getting a cantrip that does damage and has this small chance to do extra and does what ever type I want leaves me free to pick OTHER cantrips besides damage cantrips that I want. So much cool flavor I can get. Chaos Bolt is in that same boat for me. Is it the best damage spell, no but I auto have it for free and if I didn't want to pick damage stuff at the start I still have it to fall back on if I need it. Sorcerous Vitatility is a little weak for its level, but as a Sorc you don't have a lot of healing options to begin with and one that ALSO cleanses a bad debuff that is pretty solid. Arcane eruption is fantastic decent damage with a rider is awesome. Sorcerer incarnate is the only weird one for me that I think is overly costed. Meanwhile Arcane Apotheosis is way too powerful and does not need to exist.
So my player enjoyed the playtest but was new to sorcerers so acknowledges they didn't really fully get to grips with all the features.
They got confused reading it was a Prepared caster when it's clearly a Spontaneous Spells Known class. I can't comprehend the change in wording myself.
Limited spell choice was definitely an issue but I think a better option for solving it would be to give subclass specific spells known. This has the dual effect of being thematic and allowing subclasses to gain spells outside of the Mage list. Innate Sorcery would offset the loss in spells known before subclass.
Personally I think Sorcery Points should be available at level 1 as the core sorcerous feature but understand that would require some balancing against single level dips.
Metamagic needed more known but the progression is awful. There should spread it out with an additional known every 3 levels so that you know most by the end.
Initially reading Arcane Eruption my player thought it was centred on themselves and preferred the visuals of playing it that way after I corrected them. In retrospect I think this would be a suitably thematic nerf considering the power of the status effects.
Sorcerous Vitality was a good little addition for survivability.
For Sorcery Incarnate I like that they're tieing subclass features into it, however, they need to either make the features powerful enough to warrant a 5th level concentration spell, or make it a lower level spell that is easier to employ. I'm going to playtest it not returning SPs but completely removing the SP cost of Metamagic while you have Incarnate up. EDIT: Might look at making the subclass feature better as well to warrant using Sorcery Incarnate.
I am almost agree with this new Sorcerer, let's review point by point:
- Font of Magic:
Continues to be disappointing. I think many people agrees that the Sorcerer should be more Power Points based, but this makes hard the multi-class stuff, and giving everyone the PP option gives to everyone even a better option than the exclusive FoM one.
This ability should be the one used to convert the Sorcerer into the PP user but fitting well with the multi-class rules. Some (or all) options from listed could be applied:
This way the FoM could make feel more like the Sorcerer casting resource is spell slots + SP joint.
- Spells:
Sorcerous Burst: seems OK for me. Making average the base damage is a bit lower than others using d8 or greater, but you can choose the element. This makes you can avoid resistances or take advantage of weakness, doubling its damage in those cases. So if you know them it improves greatly.
Chaos Bolt: this one must be changed. It is not good to have to look a table each time you cast, that should be avoided. Change to Sorcerous Bolt doing the same but allowing you to choose the type of damage. Less damage than Chromatic Orb, but does not require material component.
Sorcerous Vitality: is fine if you mix with Twinned spell casting it in 2 rounds, if not is overrun the cost. Also should allow to upcast to get regeneration effect. Maybe change the casting time to bonus action.
Sorcery Incarnate: taking the concentration does not feel good. At that point it competes with things like fly or hasting a comrade. Maybe make it concentration dependant, but add the point "Does not count for the number of concentrating spells but if you lose concentration the spell ends". The things it provides are really good.
Arcane Eruption: really nice, it makes you to save 1 known spell for AoE damage until you want to use your 3rd level slots. Also this spell confirms that the Bolt should allow to choose the type of damage too.
- Metamagic:
Like the new options in general. But should get 3 at level 2, then get 1 every X levels to have 6 at level 13 (about 1 every 3 levels).
About the new Twinned, I like it very much the way it works, made to save resources. But this new version, as mentioned, I'd integrate it into the Font of Magic ability.
- Subclasses:
I'd not make subclasses abilities dependant of Sorcery Incarnate. This breaks backward compatibility, so we had to wait for all subclasses to be revised, instead only moving their abilities to the new levels they are acquired.
Also, after playing the Aberrant one, I have much clear that each sorcerer subclass should provide extra related spells, at least 1 of each level 0-5, that you could change by other related ones (element, school, etc.). I.e. the pyromancer could get: control flames, burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire, immolation, and could change them for any other "fire" spell.
- Arcane Apotheosis:
I think is not bad getting Wish without losing the alternative usages, but for the money one. One main rule to maintain the balance is not allowing any kind of unlimited resource option. All the other options looks fine to me, remember that using that way takes the sorcerer out of play, STR 3, getting damage if casting spells, during days. So I'd change it could lose the creating valued item option only.
About using a lower level slot for replicating with Wish, I'd limit it in some way. It is like if you could cast any 1-8 level spell of any domain while you save your level 9 spell slot, so why then the known spells?, now is like you know all of them. I have to admit I have not though much about it, because who plays adventures reaching level 18? But looking at the own Wish spell, maybe a good option could be if using a lower level slot, taking the indicated damage in spell description (1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell), or equal to the Evoker overchannel ability, so another use for Sorcery Vitality.Edit: Well after reading it again, I am agree with the ability. It allows you to cast any extra level 1-8 spell per day, for a 18th level ability seems good to me. Don't know why I though you could use this way as many times you want.
Twin spell in 5e is fine. why change it, it's kinda iconic for the sorc.
If they think it's too strong maybe something like the following.
Remove concentration spells from the effect.
Add new meta magic option that is basically what the new twinned spell is, but for concentration spells only.
What ever they do, I hope they remember, one well placed scilance or a resist/miss looses a LOT of rescources. Thats a high risk for high reward ability.
The UAC twinned spell sucks,
And if it's because its too good (compared to the others) MAKE THE OTHERS BETTER