Fireball is another overtuned AoE; they’ve expressly admitted as much, and the 14d6 comes from the DMGs section on creating spells. It is theoretically the standard metric one could compare spell damage to; granted, the operative word there is “theoretically”.
Fireball isn't overtuned at all. It's great at character level 5 but falls off very quickly.
And again, most on-level damage spells don't align with that chart. Compare Cone of Cold to the 5th level slot, Vitriolic Sphere to the 4th level spot, Chain Lightning to the 6th-level and so on. They don't exceed it by as much as MS, but they do exceed it.
Fireball isn't overtuned at all. It's great at character level 5 but falls off very quickly.
And again, most on-level damage spells don't align with that chart. Compare Cone of Cold to the 5th level slot, Vitriolic Sphere to the 4th level spot, Chain Lightning to the 6th-level and so on. They don't exceed it by as much as MS, but they do exceed it.
Looking at simple damage spells
1st level: Burning Hands 10.5, expected 7 (+50%)
2nd level: Shatter 13.5, expected 10.5 (+22%)
3rd level: Fireball: 28, expected 21 (+33%)
4th level: Vitriolic Sphere: 37.5, expected 24.5 (+53%), but there's always an adjustment for non-prompt-damage spells, I'd probably halve the value of the second turn of damage, making it 31.25 (+27%)
7th level: No simple damage does appreciably better than the expected 42,
8th level: No simple damage does does appreciably better than the expected 45.5, though incendiary cloud does 45 initially with potential for more damage.
9th level: the only other damage spells are weird (22 damage per round and notoriously terrible) and psychic scream (49; on target).
Overall it's clear that modestly exceeding the standard is routine, but there aren't any spells that exceed +50% until we hit meteor swarm at +185%. If it was 20d6, it would be at +43% relative to expected numbers, which is well within the range expected for damaging spells.
Fireball isn't overtuned at all. It's great at character level 5 but falls off very quickly.
And again, most on-level damage spells don't align with that chart. Compare Cone of Cold to the 5th level slot, Vitriolic Sphere to the 4th level spot, Chain Lightning to the 6th-level and so on. They don't exceed it by as much as MS, but they do exceed it.
Looking at simple damage spells
1st level: Burning Hands 10.5, expected 7 (+50%)
2nd level: Shatter 13.5, expected 10.5 (+22%)
3rd level: Fireball: 28, expected 21 (+33%)
4th level: Vitriolic Sphere: 37.5, expected 24.5 (+53%), but there's always an adjustment for non-prompt-damage spells, I'd probably halve the value of the second turn of damage, making it 31.25 (+27%)
7th level: No simple damage does appreciably better than the expected 42,
8th level: No simple damage does does appreciably better than the expected 45.5, though incendiary cloud does 45 initially with potential for more damage.
9th level: the only other damage spells are weird (22 damage per round and notoriously terrible) and psychic scream (49; on target).
Overall it's clear that modestly exceeding the standard is routine, but there aren't any spells that exceed +50% until we hit meteor swarm at +185%. If it was 20d6, it would be at +43% relative to expected numbers, which is well within the range expected for damaging spells.
psychic scream isn't a damage spell its a area of effect long term stun spell thanks to the int save that does not require concentration that also happens to do decent damage. At 20d6 meteor swarm would just be a bad spell.
psychic scream isn't a damage spell its a area of effect long term stun spell thanks to the int save that does not require concentration that also happens to do decent damage. At 20d6 meteor swarm would just be a bad spell.
It really would not. 70 damage with an enormous area of effect is absolutely useful and powerful. It might actually be used more by non-evokers, as the caster's friends are more likely to be able to tank the damage without serious ill effect.
And Psychic Scream is not an "impose a condition with side damage" spell. The damage is a lot of the point.
But really, it's an "exploding heads is cool" spell.
psychic scream isn't a damage spell its a area of effect long term stun spell thanks to the int save that does not require concentration that also happens to do decent damage. At 20d6 meteor swarm would just be a bad spell.
It really would not. 70 damage with an enormous area of effect is absolutely useful and powerful. It might actually be used more by non-evokers, as the caster's friends are more likely to be able to tank the damage without serious ill effect.
And Psychic Scream is not an "impose a condition with side damage" spell. The damage is a lot of the point.
But really, it's an "exploding heads is cool" spell.
Weak ass damage is not a large point of the spell, its entire point is a stun effect that will likely last forever. And yes meteor swarm would suck at 70 damage. Circle of death covers a massive area for weak damage, but if you actually need to hit that big of an area either one of their weak damages will be enough as you are fighting very low hit point enemies. So the 6th level circle of death is just as good. If its something that will survive sunbursts 12d6 it will likely also survive 20d6 so 12d6 and blinded will almost always be better in a massive area. If its moment of shining is when fighting massive swarms of enemies with more than 42 but less than 70 points of damage its so niche that it sucks as a 9th level spell.
Have any of you guys actually seen players cast either Meteor Swarm or Psychic Scream in play? Because I haven't, I've seen DMs use them against players but never seen a PC use either of them. The only 9th level spells I've actually seen players use are Shapechange, True Polymorph, Wish, Mass Heal, True Resurrection, Foresight, Gate
Have any of you guys actually seen players cast either Meteor Swarm or Psychic Scream? Because I haven't, I've seen DMs use them against players but never seen a PC use either of them.
I used psychic scream once on a Wizard, but it was a 20th-level one-shot so I prepared more higher level spells than I probably would have if I'd built the character up over time, so had plenty of options to ensure I could use the slot.
But it really did come down to a case of the stars aligning with a bunch of different factors:
I didn't spend ages building a 20th-level Wizard for a one-shot just to play as something else, so while I had true polymorph available it wasn't for casting on myself.
Similarly for wish it seemed cheap to go into a one-shot and just wish away your problem(s), but again I had it prepared in case having access to any 8th-level or lower spell became critical in the moment, though I think my spell mix was good enough I didn't really need it.
There were something like seven or eight elite enemies, think they were something custom, so the numbers worked out pretty ideal for psychic scream, and a big area spell would have had way too much collateral damage.
Basically I saved it until we hit a point where we'd done a tonne of damage but were struggling to finish off any single enemies, and at least one player was caught in a KO loop, so we needed some breathing room and a chance to tip the scales in our favour. So I figured it would be a good choice to try as it could either stun some, or even better, burst their heads. Because reason number 4) is I really wanted to burst some heads. 😉
Optimal? Maybe not though it was clutch in the moment. First choice for the slot? Ditto. Well balanced against other choices? Hard to say, it's probably more likely the other choices are too strong rather than psychic scream being too weak as it does solid damage and stunning enemies using an Intelligence saving throw can be extremely powerful.
But yeah, I doubt I would have taken so many 9th-level spells if it wasn't a high level one-shot, as I knew I wanted to throw out some of the big spells so I needed plenty of options, and I doubt I would take it on another high level Wizard unless it fit a particular theme I was going for. For example I do have a current Wizard who has leaned into telepathy as one of his main strengths, so it would make sense for that, though I doubt he'll be progressing that high.
Most likely I would just take wish and wish for some heads to explode. 😂
I've had BBEGs use meteor swarm, but never used it as a player, probably never would. Like you say, turning into a dragon is way more fun, and deals the same or better damage than other 9th-level spells to begin with, and will outperform meteor swarm over time, as well as being more surgical depending upon the type of dragon you pick/your DM will allow (at level 20 you should always, always at least ask to be a CR20 adult gold shadow dragon).
(at level 20 you should always, always at least ask to be a CR20 adult gold shadow dragon).
Where does the CR of a shadow dragon come from anyway? The rules don't tell you how to adjust CR (and it's not trivial using the DMG), but the examples do change the CR.
Where does the CR of a shadow dragon come from anyway? The rules don't tell you how to adjust CR (and it's not trivial using the DMG), but the examples do change the CR.
After applying the template you have to recalculate the challenge rating using the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating table; it's very tricky to do for dragons as you really need to calculate the base dragon first to see how Wizards of the Coast adjusted them, as most dragons don't actually deal all that much damage for their CR, but the fact they can fly makes them extremely dangerous in practice.
For the bigger dragons I've applied the template to I've calculated the bump to shadow as very roughly around CR +3, which is about the same increase they show in their example of a young red dragon (CR 10) into a young red shadow dragon (CR 13).
It's confusing though, because the only other example of a shadow dragon IIRC is Nurvureem but WotC gave her the same challenge rating as the base adult black dragon of CR 14, but I'm inclined to think that's an oversight, as with even limited access to dim light or darkness a shadow dragon becomes way more durable, and legendary shadow dragons can use legendary actions to respond to (day)light spells (try to break concentration or leave the area). That said she doesn't have the shadow breath, but I don't see that bringing the CR down so much as the damage is the same (changes to necrotic, but can insta-kill on 0 hp and spawn shadows).
Definitely something to pitch to your DM before you try turning into one though, I'd expect to get shot down pulling it on them in the middle of a session!
Have any of you guys actually seen players cast either Meteor Swarm or Psychic Scream in play? Because I haven't, I've seen DMs use them against players but never seen a PC use either of them. The only 9th level spells I've actually seen players use are Shapechange, True Polymorph, Wish, Mass Heal, True Resurrection, Foresight, Gate
I've used psychic scream as a player. In the one and only campaign I've been involved in that got to 20th. It is incredibly powerful when you have a DC 22 int save or be stunned and you need to make a DC22 int save at the end of your turn in order not to remain stunned. Even at those levels int saves are not great for most enemies. Heck there are a decent number of enemies at that level you don't even need to kill, just leave them twitching stunned for all eternity. And it targets a group selectively. II was playing an enchanter though so thematically I liked my 9th level slots to go to enchantments. I've used power words in that campaign for the same reason(enchanter), free split spell makes them a bit more worth while. Normally I'd likely go with shape change or something instead. Even at 40d6 damage I can't see myself using meteor swarm outside really niche circumstances or playing an evoker and it just fits.
I'd like them to nerf the always taken 9th level spells so spells like this seem more viable.
Have any of you guys actually seen players cast either Meteor Swarm or Psychic Scream in play? Because I haven't, I've seen DMs use them against players but never seen a PC use either of them. The only 9th level spells I've actually seen players use are Shapechange, True Polymorph, Wish, Mass Heal, True Resurrection, Foresight, Gate
I've played a warlock in a game that went up to 20, and Psychic Scream was my 9th-level spell. Meanwhile, our evocation wizard liked chucking Meteor Swarm around because absurd damage and evocation wizard. But the problem there is evocation wizard.
I probably should've used PS more often than I did; I don't think I ever managed to explode any heads. :(
But the damage and the stun were both solid.
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Fireball isn't overtuned at all. It's great at character level 5 but falls off very quickly.
And again, most on-level damage spells don't align with that chart. Compare Cone of Cold to the 5th level slot, Vitriolic Sphere to the 4th level spot, Chain Lightning to the 6th-level and so on. They don't exceed it by as much as MS, but they do exceed it.
Looking at simple damage spells
Overall it's clear that modestly exceeding the standard is routine, but there aren't any spells that exceed +50% until we hit meteor swarm at +185%. If it was 20d6, it would be at +43% relative to expected numbers, which is well within the range expected for damaging spells.
Thanks for that lengthy analysis that repeated the sentence I ended my post with.
psychic scream isn't a damage spell its a area of effect long term stun spell thanks to the int save that does not require concentration that also happens to do decent damage. At 20d6 meteor swarm would just be a bad spell.
It really would not. 70 damage with an enormous area of effect is absolutely useful and powerful. It might actually be used more by non-evokers, as the caster's friends are more likely to be able to tank the damage without serious ill effect.
And Psychic Scream is not an "impose a condition with side damage" spell. The damage is a lot of the point.
But really, it's an "exploding heads is cool" spell.
Weak ass damage is not a large point of the spell, its entire point is a stun effect that will likely last forever. And yes meteor swarm would suck at 70 damage. Circle of death covers a massive area for weak damage, but if you actually need to hit that big of an area either one of their weak damages will be enough as you are fighting very low hit point enemies. So the 6th level circle of death is just as good. If its something that will survive sunbursts 12d6 it will likely also survive 20d6 so 12d6 and blinded will almost always be better in a massive area. If its moment of shining is when fighting massive swarms of enemies with more than 42 but less than 70 points of damage its so niche that it sucks as a 9th level spell.
Have any of you guys actually seen players cast either Meteor Swarm or Psychic Scream in play? Because I haven't, I've seen DMs use them against players but never seen a PC use either of them. The only 9th level spells I've actually seen players use are Shapechange, True Polymorph, Wish, Mass Heal, True Resurrection, Foresight, Gate
I used psychic scream once on a Wizard, but it was a 20th-level one-shot so I prepared more higher level spells than I probably would have if I'd built the character up over time, so had plenty of options to ensure I could use the slot.
But it really did come down to a case of the stars aligning with a bunch of different factors:
Basically I saved it until we hit a point where we'd done a tonne of damage but were struggling to finish off any single enemies, and at least one player was caught in a KO loop, so we needed some breathing room and a chance to tip the scales in our favour. So I figured it would be a good choice to try as it could either stun some, or even better, burst their heads. Because reason number 4) is I really wanted to burst some heads. 😉
Optimal? Maybe not though it was clutch in the moment. First choice for the slot? Ditto. Well balanced against other choices? Hard to say, it's probably more likely the other choices are too strong rather than psychic scream being too weak as it does solid damage and stunning enemies using an Intelligence saving throw can be extremely powerful.
But yeah, I doubt I would have taken so many 9th-level spells if it wasn't a high level one-shot, as I knew I wanted to throw out some of the big spells so I needed plenty of options, and I doubt I would take it on another high level Wizard unless it fit a particular theme I was going for. For example I do have a current Wizard who has leaned into telepathy as one of his main strengths, so it would make sense for that, though I doubt he'll be progressing that high.
Most likely I would just take wish and wish for some heads to explode. 😂
I've had BBEGs use meteor swarm, but never used it as a player, probably never would. Like you say, turning into a dragon is way more fun, and deals the same or better damage than other 9th-level spells to begin with, and will outperform meteor swarm over time, as well as being more surgical depending upon the type of dragon you pick/your DM will allow (at level 20 you should always, always at least ask to be a CR20 adult gold shadow dragon).
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
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Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Where does the CR of a shadow dragon come from anyway? The rules don't tell you how to adjust CR (and it's not trivial using the DMG), but the examples do change the CR.
After applying the template you have to recalculate the challenge rating using the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating table; it's very tricky to do for dragons as you really need to calculate the base dragon first to see how Wizards of the Coast adjusted them, as most dragons don't actually deal all that much damage for their CR, but the fact they can fly makes them extremely dangerous in practice.
For the bigger dragons I've applied the template to I've calculated the bump to shadow as very roughly around CR +3, which is about the same increase they show in their example of a young red dragon (CR 10) into a young red shadow dragon (CR 13).
It's confusing though, because the only other example of a shadow dragon IIRC is Nurvureem but WotC gave her the same challenge rating as the base adult black dragon of CR 14, but I'm inclined to think that's an oversight, as with even limited access to dim light or darkness a shadow dragon becomes way more durable, and legendary shadow dragons can use legendary actions to respond to (day)light spells (try to break concentration or leave the area). That said she doesn't have the shadow breath, but I don't see that bringing the CR down so much as the damage is the same (changes to necrotic, but can insta-kill on 0 hp and spawn shadows).
Definitely something to pitch to your DM before you try turning into one though, I'd expect to get shot down pulling it on them in the middle of a session!
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I've used psychic scream as a player. In the one and only campaign I've been involved in that got to 20th. It is incredibly powerful when you have a DC 22 int save or be stunned and you need to make a DC22 int save at the end of your turn in order not to remain stunned. Even at those levels int saves are not great for most enemies. Heck there are a decent number of enemies at that level you don't even need to kill, just leave them twitching stunned for all eternity. And it targets a group selectively. II was playing an enchanter though so thematically I liked my 9th level slots to go to enchantments. I've used power words in that campaign for the same reason(enchanter), free split spell makes them a bit more worth while. Normally I'd likely go with shape change or something instead. Even at 40d6 damage I can't see myself using meteor swarm outside really niche circumstances or playing an evoker and it just fits.
I'd like them to nerf the always taken 9th level spells so spells like this seem more viable.
I've played a warlock in a game that went up to 20, and Psychic Scream was my 9th-level spell. Meanwhile, our evocation wizard liked chucking Meteor Swarm around because absurd damage and evocation wizard. But the problem there is evocation wizard.
I probably should've used PS more often than I did; I don't think I ever managed to explode any heads. :(
But the damage and the stun were both solid.