Sincerely, Short Rest sucks. At first seemed interesting like something new, but after using it I am not a fan. Characters divided in SR and LR resource recovering creates discrepancies in the party. How nice is to lose the False Life, Enchant Weapon or Stoneskin because the Fighter wants to recover the Action Surge.
we know they will get more invocations. They said that. I just hope for some mechanically useful invocations and not RP junk like mask of many faces which is an instant non-pick.
That's my single favorite invocation.
Disguise Self on a Charisma caster (with proficiency in Persuasion and Deception) makes for a wonderful party face, because you can be anyone at any time.
Invocations that give on demand spells will never allow damage spells to be used. If you go and look at the spell effects invocations replicated they were basically level 1 and 2 spells, that took one action to cast, that did not affect hostile units, and were limited in effect to the caster.
At a combat heavy table like mine, it's completely useless. I don't need spells that do damage, but I do need spells that have some combat application. Spells that help /avoid/ combat are unwelcome, and it's unreasonable to pretend that combat heavy tables do not exist.
Your last line is why just buffing invocations doesn't solve the biggest problem warlock had. I and many other people, need stuff that will help us in combat. Blowing a 3rd or 4th level slot on Shield...sucks. Blowing a 3rd or 4th level slot on misty step...sucks. heck, blowing a 3rd or 4th level spell plus conc on Hex, sucks. I want options to cast my lower level spells AS lower level spells. If I am not going to waste a precious spell learned on Disguise Self, I am certainly not going to waste an even more precious invocation on it.
Blowing it on fireball at 5th level would be much more welcome, and fun, and the new warlock could do that., A return to pact magic will not.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I know there is a subset of the community that loves the short/long rest mechanic, but all it really does is make games far more swingy. Usually in the Long Rest character's favor, because '6-8 encounters' my ass!
There are no problems with short/long rest characters that didn't already exist in 3rd edition, before the concept of short rests was introduced. The core problem is resource-limited characters vs not -- a resource-limited character starts the day with high effectiveness and that drops off through the day until eventually they're less effective than the non-limited character. At a certain length of day, the average effectiveness, normalized over the length of the day, is equal. If the day is too short, the resource-based class is superior; if too long, the non-resource character is superior. In practice resources are sufficiently large that the resource-based class is just straight superior, at least after the first few levels, and while it's possible to force long days, they are (a) a boring slog, (b) something players resist heavily, and (c) does anyone really want to run a combat where the spellcasters are down to cantrips and nothing else?
It's possible to achieve different play styles with equivalent strength in other ways -- the usual way video games handle this is cooldowns or raise/spend mechanics -- but rest-based resource mechanics will always encourage degenerate play.
we know they will get more invocations. They said that. I just hope for some mechanically useful invocations and not RP junk like mask of many faces which is an instant non-pick.
I've known people who took mask of many faces and found it pretty useful. The invocations I find utterly worthless are the ones that don't do anything but add a spell to your spell list, such as bewitching whispers.
2014 design was like, "let's lock warlocks out of basic stuff warlocks are supposed to do, then allow them to buy it back for a price of invocation slot. Perfect business model!".
Removing short rest features would have to be done across the entire PHB. My best time me playing a warlock was surprisingly in a party full of other casters (a modified Strixhaven game) but the arcane spells were split between myself and a bard. Adding in the cleric and druid of our quartet, every player recovered something on a short rest, making the group less averse to taking them. Still, I don't remember taking more than 2 short rests without a long rest more than one time in a marathon encounter in a besieged city, and even then I think it was only 3. We had one or zero more often than that.
Replacing short rest features with long rest features is significantly easier than replacing long rest features with short rest features. The two simplest methods being just giving them more uses per day or having them recharge on initiative.
I know there is a subset of the community that loves the short/long rest mechanic, but all it really does is make games far more swingy. Usually in the Long Rest character's favor, because '6-8 encounters' my ass!
I could go for recharge-on-initiative, but for me shifting the Warlock to a long rest caster strips them of their identity. I don't know what the new class would be, but it wouldn't be what I recognize as a Warlock, even if it does have eldritch blast. Not being dependent on long rests IS the defining feature of the class from my perspective.
At a combat heavy table like mine, it's completely useless. I don't need spells that do damage, but I do need spells that have some combat application. Spells that help /avoid/ combat are unwelcome, and it's unreasonable to pretend that combat heavy tables do not exist.
Your last line is why just buffing invocations doesn't solve the biggest problem warlock had. I and many other people, need stuff that will help us in combat. Blowing a 3rd or 4th level slot on Shield...sucks. Blowing a 3rd or 4th level slot on misty step...sucks. heck, blowing a 3rd or 4th level spell plus conc on Hex, sucks. I want options to cast my lower level spells AS lower level spells. If I am not going to waste a precious spell learned on Disguise Self, I am certainly not going to waste an even more precious invocation on it.
Blowing it on fireball at 5th level would be much more welcome, and fun, and the new warlock could do that., A return to pact magic will not.
My Hexblade was perfectly capable of dealing combat damage, but it wasn't designed solely for dealing combat damage. It was fairly capable in every pillar of the game.
A level 5 (Fiend or Genie) Warlock can cast fireball twice per short rest. The UA Warlock could only do it once per long rest, and hypnotic pattern was a much better use of your level 3 Mystic Arcanum.
UA Warlock also required you to expend a 3rd or 5th level spell slot (when you're only getting one or two per long rest) in order to upgrade the damage of Hex, making it worthless.
If I'm using a 5th level pact slot I cast Spirit Shroud for the 2d8 radiant damage per hit.
Hexblade's Curse plus Relentless Hex gives a "Misty Step" style effect without requiring a spell slot, and there are a couple of races that get a Misty Step style effect as a racial trait.
I could go for recharge-on-initiative, but for me shifting the Warlock to a long rest caster strips them of their identity. I don't know what the new class would be, but it wouldn't be what I recognize as a Warlock, even if it does have eldritch blast. Not being dependent on long rests IS the defining feature of the class from my perspective.
There is no such things as being dependent on long rests, because long rests are needed to recover HP, that's a basic game mechanic that is above classes. A warlock needs to take a long rest just like everyone, not to mention that warlock has long rest features anyway.
Having to stop for an hour after every two spells is a disability that has become so prominent that it has become "class identity". So it's no longer "Greg, the guy who's in the wheelchair because of a bad decision". It's "that wheelchair guy". Sure, a short rest class like warlock can be very powerful under certain circumstances. Just like a person in a wheelchair can be quick when rolling down a long slope.
I could go for recharge-on-initiative, but for me shifting the Warlock to a long rest caster strips them of their identity. I don't know what the new class would be, but it wouldn't be what I recognize as a Warlock, even if it does have eldritch blast. Not being dependent on long rests IS the defining feature of the class from my perspective.
There is no such things as being dependent on long rests, because long rests are needed to recover HP, that's a basic game mechanic that is above classes. A warlock needs to take a long rest just like everyone, not to mention that warlock has long rest features anyway.
Having to stop for an hour after every two spells is a disability that has become so prominent that it has become "class identity". So it's no longer "Greg, the guy who's in the wheelchair because of a bad decision". It's "that wheelchair guy". Sure, a short rest class like warlock can be very powerful under certain circumstances. Just like a person in a wheelchair can be quick when rolling down a long slope.
Which is why the low-mid levels are the ones that need to be fixed. Preferably not by becoming another Vancian caster - they have their place, but that place isn't EVERY place.
If I'm using a 5th level pact slot I cast Spirit Shroud for the 2d8 radiant damage per hit.
I'm just chiming in with a big HELL YEAH for hexlocks using spirit shroud. If you take the feat or invocation that gives you advantage on concentration checks, it's especially effective.
Which is why the low-mid levels are the ones that need to be fixed. Preferably not by becoming another Vancian caster - they have their place, but that place isn't EVERY place.
There's the compatibility issue. When the base mechanic of all spellcasters is the same, they can multiclass relatively easily, it's the features like metamagic or smites that give spellcasting classes unique twists.
There's actually a pretty simple solution to the long/short rest problem -- it's just a problem that people will hate. Just make it so you can't long rest as often as you might want.
If you want to complete a short rest in an hour... first finish 1/3 of a day's worth of encounters. If you don't... use the gritty realism rules, and it takes a night's rest.
If you want to complete a long rest in a night's rest... first finish a day's worth of encounters. If you don't... use the gritty realism rules, and it takes a full week of downtime in a safe location.
There's actually a pretty simple solution to the long/short rest problem -- it's just a problem that people will hate. Just make it so you can't long rest as often as you might want.
If you want to complete a short rest in an hour... first finish 1/3 of a day's worth of encounters. If you don't... use the gritty realism rules, and it takes a night's rest.
If you want to complete a long rest in a night's rest... first finish a day's worth of encounters. If you don't... use the gritty realism rules, and it takes a full week of downtime in a safe location.
How much is 1/3 of a day's worth of encounters, precisely? How do you know how many encounters there's hoing yo be in a given day? Won't players have to fight each other to death during social scenarios or long traveling sequences in order to gain the right to sleep and avoid death by exhaustion?)
How much is 1/3 of a day's worth of encounters, precisely? How do you know how many encounters there's hoing yo be in a given day? Won't players have to fight each other to death during social scenarios or long traveling sequences in order to gain the right to sleep and avoid death by exhaustion?)
That's 1/3 or 100% of the daily xp budget -- generally that means one deadly encounter per short rest, one long rest per three deadly encounters. And no, you can sleep just fine -- you just don't get the benefits of a long rest, you get the benefits of a short rest.
That's 1/3 or 100% of the daily xp budget -- generally that means one deadly encounter per short rest, one long rest per three deadly encounters. And no, you can sleep just fine -- you just don't get the benefits of a long rest, you get the benefits of a short rest.
That implies foreknowledge of how much is going to happen on a given day. Fine for railroaded dungeon grinders, not suitable for stuff with a degree of freedom and unpredictability. And for story/exploration scenarios or sequences.
That's 1/3 or 100% of the daily xp budget -- generally that means one deadly encounter per short rest, one long rest per three deadly encounters. And no, you can sleep just fine -- you just don't get the benefits of a long rest, you get the benefits of a short rest.
That implies foreknowledge of how much is going to happen on a given day.
No it doesn't. Under this rule there's no assumption that you get a long rest every day. You get a rest every day. Whether or not it qualifies as a long rest depends on what you did that day (and possibly previous days).
That's 1/3 or 100% of the daily xp budget -- generally that means one deadly encounter per short rest, one long rest per three deadly encounters. And no, you can sleep just fine -- you just don't get the benefits of a long rest, you get the benefits of a short rest.
That implies foreknowledge of how much is going to happen on a given day. Fine for railroaded dungeon grinders, not suitable for stuff with a degree of freedom and unpredictability. And for story/exploration scenarios or sequences.
No it doesn't. Under this rule there's no assumption that you get a long rest every day. You get a rest every day. Whether or not it qualifies as a long rest depends on what you did that day (and possibly previous days).
So basically you need to pass a certain threshold of XP to refresh your spells and features, limiting the amount of long rests per characted level. In a certain way that actually makes sense, but it kinda feels rigid.
No it doesn't. Under this rule there's no assumption that you get a long rest every day. You get a rest every day. Whether or not it qualifies as a long rest depends on what you did that day (and possibly previous days).
So basically you need to pass a certain threshold of XP to refresh your spells and features, limiting the amount of long rests per characted level. In a certain way that actually makes sense, but it kinda feels rigid.
It is, but in the end, if you want to solve the long rest vs short rest vs no rest issues with D&D, you need to remove options, because given the choice, no-one is going to actually play the way the game designers expect it to be played.
There's actually a pretty simple solution to the long/short rest problem -- it's just a problem that people will hate. Just make it so you can't long rest as often as you might want.
If you want to complete a short rest in an hour... first finish 1/3 of a day's worth of encounters. If you don't... use the gritty realism rules, and it takes a night's rest.
If you want to complete a long rest in a night's rest... first finish a day's worth of encounters. If you don't... use the gritty realism rules, and it takes a full week of downtime in a safe location.
Yeah, this seems FAR too rigid of a system. Especially in a game of chance. If one of my characters gets double critted in the first round of the first combat, saying they essentially can't use hit dice means they will likely be a hindrance to the party. That doesn't feel fun.
Edit: When you see your post a day later and immediately see all the grammar mistakes.
Sincerely, Short Rest sucks. At first seemed interesting like something new, but after using it I am not a fan. Characters divided in SR and LR resource recovering creates discrepancies in the party. How nice is to lose the False Life, Enchant Weapon or Stoneskin because the Fighter wants to recover the Action Surge.
At a combat heavy table like mine, it's completely useless. I don't need spells that do damage, but I do need spells that have some combat application. Spells that help /avoid/ combat are unwelcome, and it's unreasonable to pretend that combat heavy tables do not exist.
Your last line is why just buffing invocations doesn't solve the biggest problem warlock had. I and many other people, need stuff that will help us in combat. Blowing a 3rd or 4th level slot on Shield...sucks. Blowing a 3rd or 4th level slot on misty step...sucks. heck, blowing a 3rd or 4th level spell plus conc on Hex, sucks. I want options to cast my lower level spells AS lower level spells. If I am not going to waste a precious spell learned on Disguise Self, I am certainly not going to waste an even more precious invocation on it.
Blowing it on fireball at 5th level would be much more welcome, and fun, and the new warlock could do that., A return to pact magic will not.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
There are no problems with short/long rest characters that didn't already exist in 3rd edition, before the concept of short rests was introduced. The core problem is resource-limited characters vs not -- a resource-limited character starts the day with high effectiveness and that drops off through the day until eventually they're less effective than the non-limited character. At a certain length of day, the average effectiveness, normalized over the length of the day, is equal. If the day is too short, the resource-based class is superior; if too long, the non-resource character is superior. In practice resources are sufficiently large that the resource-based class is just straight superior, at least after the first few levels, and while it's possible to force long days, they are (a) a boring slog, (b) something players resist heavily, and (c) does anyone really want to run a combat where the spellcasters are down to cantrips and nothing else?
It's possible to achieve different play styles with equivalent strength in other ways -- the usual way video games handle this is cooldowns or raise/spend mechanics -- but rest-based resource mechanics will always encourage degenerate play.
2014 design was like, "let's lock warlocks out of basic stuff warlocks are supposed to do, then allow them to buy it back for a price of invocation slot. Perfect business model!".
I could go for recharge-on-initiative, but for me shifting the Warlock to a long rest caster strips them of their identity. I don't know what the new class would be, but it wouldn't be what I recognize as a Warlock, even if it does have eldritch blast. Not being dependent on long rests IS the defining feature of the class from my perspective.
My Hexblade was perfectly capable of dealing combat damage, but it wasn't designed solely for dealing combat damage. It was fairly capable in every pillar of the game.
A level 5 (Fiend or Genie) Warlock can cast fireball twice per short rest. The UA Warlock could only do it once per long rest, and hypnotic pattern was a much better use of your level 3 Mystic Arcanum.
UA Warlock also required you to expend a 3rd or 5th level spell slot (when you're only getting one or two per long rest) in order to upgrade the damage of Hex, making it worthless.
If I'm using a 5th level pact slot I cast Spirit Shroud for the 2d8 radiant damage per hit.
Hexblade's Curse plus Relentless Hex gives a "Misty Step" style effect without requiring a spell slot, and there are a couple of races that get a Misty Step style effect as a racial trait.
There is no such things as being dependent on long rests, because long rests are needed to recover HP, that's a basic game mechanic that is above classes. A warlock needs to take a long rest just like everyone, not to mention that warlock has long rest features anyway.
Having to stop for an hour after every two spells is a disability that has become so prominent that it has become "class identity". So it's no longer "Greg, the guy who's in the wheelchair because of a bad decision". It's "that wheelchair guy". Sure, a short rest class like warlock can be very powerful under certain circumstances. Just like a person in a wheelchair can be quick when rolling down a long slope.
Sure... but what about it? Not every invocation needs to be useful at every table, they just need to be useful at some tables.
Which is why the low-mid levels are the ones that need to be fixed. Preferably not by becoming another Vancian caster - they have their place, but that place isn't EVERY place.
I'm just chiming in with a big HELL YEAH for hexlocks using spirit shroud. If you take the feat or invocation that gives you advantage on concentration checks, it's especially effective.
There's the compatibility issue. When the base mechanic of all spellcasters is the same, they can multiclass relatively easily, it's the features like metamagic or smites that give spellcasting classes unique twists.
There's actually a pretty simple solution to the long/short rest problem -- it's just a problem that people will hate. Just make it so you can't long rest as often as you might want.
How much is 1/3 of a day's worth of encounters, precisely? How do you know how many encounters there's hoing yo be in a given day? Won't players have to fight each other to death during social scenarios or long traveling sequences in order to gain the right to sleep and avoid death by exhaustion?)
That's 1/3 or 100% of the daily xp budget -- generally that means one deadly encounter per short rest, one long rest per three deadly encounters. And no, you can sleep just fine -- you just don't get the benefits of a long rest, you get the benefits of a short rest.
That implies foreknowledge of how much is going to happen on a given day. Fine for railroaded dungeon grinders, not suitable for stuff with a degree of freedom and unpredictability. And for story/exploration scenarios or sequences.
No it doesn't. Under this rule there's no assumption that you get a long rest every day. You get a rest every day. Whether or not it qualifies as a long rest depends on what you did that day (and possibly previous days).
That implies foreknowledge of how much is going to happen on a given day. Fine for railroaded dungeon grinders, not suitable for stuff with a degree of freedom and unpredictability. And for story/exploration scenarios or sequences.
So basically you need to pass a certain threshold of XP to refresh your spells and features, limiting the amount of long rests per characted level. In a certain way that actually makes sense, but it kinda feels rigid.
It is, but in the end, if you want to solve the long rest vs short rest vs no rest issues with D&D, you need to remove options, because given the choice, no-one is going to actually play the way the game designers expect it to be played.
Yeah, this seems FAR too rigid of a system. Especially in a game of chance. If one of my characters gets double critted in the first round of the first combat, saying they essentially can't use hit dice means they will likely be a hindrance to the party. That doesn't feel fun.
Edit: When you see your post a day later and immediately see all the grammar mistakes.