Someone mentioned BG3 above. I personally think how they do short rests just works better. Take 2 a day, each time 1/2 your hit points are restored, short rest features are renewed and its basically instant. Go back to 4es 5 minute system as instant is kind of a silly narrative for a break. Give the 2 classes whose primary resource is based around it one extra minute long recovery per day. Balance spell numbers/ki amount around that.
The main problem with a 5m short rest is how it interacts with spells with a duration of 10 minutes to 1 hour. Having a short rest break concentration would resolve it, though.
But that would then clash with Concentration spells you can hold for several hours, so that cuts both ways. Maybe go more towards something like 15 minutes? Enough time to lapse out the short durations, but not the ones meant to be held through multiple encounters.
The longer ones are either 10 minutes or 1 hour plus. 10 minutes would cover the 10 minute ones. Though I'm not sure its that big of an issue that there are a small subset of spells that benefit from short rest recovery. If you can only cast 2 spells a rest having one spell with 5 minutes left on it while having full slots probably is not breaking the game. I could see armor of agathis being a issue since its 1 hour no concentration. But honestly I think that spell should have been on a 8 hour timer anyways. One hour is sort of weird design. The spell is not good enough for using an action in a fight, so its only used when you are ambushing people as otherwise you can't really count on a fight or being hit in a hour. The pact of the blade people its at least more likely as you will probably charge into melee. It just kind of feels like the warlocks version of mage armor, defense buff you slap on for the day before adventuring. And again like one spell maybe a couple others i'm not thinking of being a bit better here does not break things imo. You still wont be wizard powerful. Or bard, sorcerer powerful. likely not cleric or druid powerful, I don;t really play those classes though so making a wild guess there. Tons more spells break the game for full casters when you are on the 1-2 a day encounter model. And yeah if rests broke concentration it would "solve" it for 99% of the issue spells. Though I'm still not sure it would be a issue or just a nice perk that still is within a warlocks expected power levels. Play testing would hopefully work that out.
Edit to add, also maybe some of those spells should be nerfed to 1 minute duration or 5 minutes. Maybe flight is too good at 10 minutes for example.
Upcasts; the big two are Hunter's Mark and Hex. Both can last for 8 or 24 hours with concentration. Possibly one or two others that aren't coming to mind right now. Less of an issue with Hex, assuming some form of SR refresh, but one of the perks at higher levels is holding your Hex while you get the slot back. Something like 15-30 minutes would time out all of the fairly short duration spells without seriously hurting ones like these.
10 minutes Short Rest sound good as it is the casting time of rituals (casting Detect Magic on the loot) and Prayer of Healing, so after rolling hit dice can decide if cast it or save the spell slot. Reduces the remaining time of 1 hour spells, but are not terminated.
And if using the resource recovering on SR, limit it to a number, but for resource recovering only, for healing you should be able to use as many as want, to stop the excessive dependency of magical healing and be able to heal by mundane.
10 minutes Short Rest sound good as it is the casting time of rituals (casting Detect Magic on the loot) and Prayer of Healing, so after rolling hit dice can decide if cast it or save the spell slot. Reduces the remaining time of 1 hour spells, but are not terminated.
And if using the resource recovering on SR, limit it to a number, but for resource recovering only, for healing you should be able to use as many as want, to stop the excessive dependency of magical healing and be able to heal by mundane.
I may be crazy, but, I believe that the rules don't actually need a change in short rests as long as tables are willing to work with their players. Obviously any table can change the length of a short rest at their own whim. But making it clearer would help. Obviously I find the issue with 10 minute short rests is the short rest after every fight.
10 minutes Short Rest sound good as it is the casting time of rituals (casting Detect Magic on the loot) and Prayer of Healing, so after rolling hit dice can decide if cast it or save the spell slot. Reduces the remaining time of 1 hour spells, but are not terminated.
And if using the resource recovering on SR, limit it to a number, but for resource recovering only, for healing you should be able to use as many as want, to stop the excessive dependency of magical healing and be able to heal by mundane.
I may be crazy, but, I believe that the rules don't actually need a change in short rests as long as tables are willing to work with their players. Obviously any table can change the length of a short rest at their own whim. But making it clearer would help. Obviously I find the issue with 10 minute short rests is the short rest after every fight.
Well, short rest after every fight isn't necessarily an issue. Either you could balance short rest features as per-encounter or you could limit the amount of short rests you can take each day to 2 (yes, a la Baldur's Gate, but it's been suggested before the game too). I'd learn towards the second, since otherwise short rest spellcasting would completely eclipse ritual spellcasting and all short rest features would get a bit wonky out of combat.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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10 minutes Short Rest sound good as it is the casting time of rituals (casting Detect Magic on the loot) and Prayer of Healing, so after rolling hit dice can decide if cast it or save the spell slot. Reduces the remaining time of 1 hour spells, but are not terminated.
And if using the resource recovering on SR, limit it to a number, but for resource recovering only, for healing you should be able to use as many as want, to stop the excessive dependency of magical healing and be able to heal by mundane.
I may be crazy, but, I believe that the rules don't actually need a change in short rests as long as tables are willing to work with their players. Obviously any table can change the length of a short rest at their own whim. But making it clearer would help. Obviously I find the issue with 10 minute short rests is the short rest after every fight.
That's the reason of limit by rules. OK as always "each table...", but the abuse should be limited by rules, then set a common balanced base, and later "each table" can remove the limit. Cannot understand why always when limiting is something of the table, but cannot be the opposite way. The rules should establish a common balanced starting point.
10 minutes Short Rest sound good as it is the casting time of rituals (casting Detect Magic on the loot) and Prayer of Healing, so after rolling hit dice can decide if cast it or save the spell slot. Reduces the remaining time of 1 hour spells, but are not terminated.
And if using the resource recovering on SR, limit it to a number, but for resource recovering only, for healing you should be able to use as many as want, to stop the excessive dependency of magical healing and be able to heal by mundane.
I may be crazy, but, I believe that the rules don't actually need a change in short rests as long as tables are willing to work with their players. Obviously any table can change the length of a short rest at their own whim. But making it clearer would help. Obviously I find the issue with 10 minute short rests is the short rest after every fight.
Well, short rest after every fight isn't necessarily an issue. Either you could balance short rest features as per-encounter or you could limit the amount of short rests you can take each day to 2 (yes, a la Baldur's Gate, but it's been suggested before the game too). I'd learn towards the second, since otherwise short rest spellcasting would completely eclipse ritual spellcasting and all short rest features would get a bit wonky out of combat.
Which creates its own issues and follow ups. Like people would still, potentially, fight about when to take a short rest since it would be a limited resource for the whole party it might be back to denying the warlock or monks short rests because they need them a little sooner than the other characters who would still benefit from one. It also kills exploration/social/utility rest casting from the warlock. One benefit I have found with warlock at some tables is the ability to cast spells to solve non-combat issues in times when there isn't a rush. One example is the Fey Lock's Seeming spell, I like that to cast that on the party at the start of the day and just short rest and the first combat or thing we come to the casters looking like big plate guys and the big plate wearing guys look like squishy casters which can give the party an edge at the start of combat. An undead warlock may like to cast Deathward at the start of the day and take a short rest. Limiting the number of short rests would wipe these sort of strategies out. (and it wouldn't necessarily cost the party time either if you were playing an elf and could benefit from a long rest in just 4 hours.)
Essentially there are repercussions for everything, but ultimately I do think both warlock and monk need to function with 0 short rests, 1 short rest or 3 short rests or 4 short rests. Without overshadowing the party too much. Because no matter what happens with short rests every table is ultimately going to run them slightly differently.
That is easy, don't limit the number of SR, the limit is how many times each character can recover resources with SR between LR. A short SR (the 10 minutes one) is always good for rolling hit dice to heal, then each character can decide if uses it for recovering resources as now can be done a limited number of times.
That is easy, don't limit the number of SR, the limit is how many times each character can recover resources with SR between LR. A short SR (the 10 minutes one) is always good for rolling hit dice to heal, then each character can decide if uses it for recovering resources as now can be done a limited number of times.
That does end the arguing, but does still ruin the second thing I talked about. Would the limit be on total number of slots recovered or ki recovered or would it be a total number of times each could be recovered?
That is easy, don't limit the number of SR, the limit is how many times each character can recover resources with SR between LR. A short SR (the 10 minutes one) is always good for rolling hit dice to heal, then each character can decide if uses it for recovering resources as now can be done a limited number of times.
That does end the arguing, but does still ruin the second thing I talked about. Would the limit be on total number of slots recovered or ki recovered or would it be a total number of times each could be recovered?
Number of times. Easier to use and avoid abusing of SR to recover those spent 3 of 10 Ki points when no other needs a rest.
That is easy, don't limit the number of SR, the limit is how many times each character can recover resources with SR between LR. A short SR (the 10 minutes one) is always good for rolling hit dice to heal, then each character can decide if uses it for recovering resources as now can be done a limited number of times.
That does end the arguing, but does still ruin the second thing I talked about. Would the limit be on total number of slots recovered or ki recovered or would it be a total number of times each could be recovered?
Number of times. Easier to use and avoid abusing of SR to recover those spent 3 of 10 Ki points when no other needs a rest.
So definitely ruins the first part that I talked about and encourages potentially weird spending habits.
That depends of POV, I don't see taking some time to healing a weird habit. Just like fortunately the thieving was disattached from the Rogue and others can try, the healing so attached to magic is worse than taking a short break to apply some bandages and making use of skills in medicine.
That depends of POV, I don't see taking some time to healing a weird habit. Just like fortunately the thieving was disattached from the Rogue and others can try, the healing so attached to magic is worse than taking a short break to apply some bandages and making use of skills in medicine.
I am not referring to healing. I am referring to weird Ki and Spell slot spending habits. Healing is going to happen as needed with short rests, but if each character is limited to a set number of short rests it is going to cause weird resource spending habits. And if you are going to make short rests so easy and still limit the number of them anyway, why not just give all the spell slots and ki per long rest?
Edit: ultimately I don't believe this conversation is actually all that helpful. Do what you want at your table, but changing the rest rules does not appear to currently be on the horizon for WotC and this revised 5e. Though who knows what the future will hold.
Because the limit is to avoid the abuse for resource recovering, that is precisely the main problem. Remember that is the resource recovering the limit (i.e. the monk meditating for recovering Ki), for healing there is no limit. So it is not like the party make a SR and a character cannot take it for healing (or casting ritual) because the limit.
As always I'd suggest on survey, later then they will do as they want. Don't want to impose anyone, but at the same time is disappointing "imposing" that abusing system to all others that want some more balanced method. As mentioned before the DMG part should get more importance, with options.
Because the limit is to avoid the abuse for resource recovering, that is precisely the main problem. Remember that is the resource recovering the limit (i.e. the monk meditating for recovering Ki), for healing there is no limit. So it is not like the party make a SR and a character cannot take it for healing (or casting ritual) because the limit.
As always I'd suggest on survey, later then they will do as they want. Don't want to impose anyone, but at the same time is disappointing "imposing" that abusing system to all others that want some more balanced method. As mentioned before the DMG part should get more importance, with options.
There is a limit on healing. It is hit dice. I think the problem we have right now with Short rests is how rigid some GM's are with them and how punishing people make them. It is a mechanic in this role playing GAME, and ignoring that mechanic or overly punishing people for it seems like ignoring a prime mechanic of the game. Personally I feel there are a lot of ways to run short rests and as long as the players and GM agree and it isn't being abused at the table people should be able to have fun with it. Just wish people would work that part out better and ya the DMG is a great place to help with that. Especially if the DMG becomes more intuitive.
Edit: Sorry, sometimes I start losing any kind of point I am making and am not really arguing or anything just kind of having a conversation. If that makes sense. That is definitely what these last couple posts are. More conversation than argument, hope that is understandable.
There is a limit on healing. It is hit dice. I think the problem we have right now with Short rests is how rigid some GM's are with them and how punishing people make them. It is a mechanic in this role playing GAME, and ignoring that mechanic or overly punishing people for it seems like ignoring a prime mechanic of the game. Personally I feel there are a lot of ways to run short rests and as long as the players and GM agree and it isn't being abused at the table people should be able to have fun with it. Just wish people would work that part out better and ya the DMG is a great place to help with that. Especially if the DMG becomes more intuitive.
This is where I see the problem as well. Short rest/long rest need to be revised, and there's got to be a way where it gives more control to the party, but also keeps it balanced for the DM by making tracking days more transparent.
the resource limit for short rest classes (warlock and monk (plus battlemaster, why not)) seems like it's designed specifically to narrow down how many can be used in one burst rather than how many they have in a day. they just need to drag the "when you roll initiative" refill down to level 5 and test it for those classes. are they balanced around always having one or two slots/points/dice or not? is it fun to always have at least one grenade in every combat?
fix that and then it won't matter how many 15-minute short rests the party takes (during exploration and travel, obvious ticking-clocks are obvious).
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the resource limit for short rest classes (warlock and monk (plus battlemaster, why not)) seems like it's designed specifically to narrow down how many can be used in one burst rather than how many they have in a day. they just need to drag the "when you roll initiative" refill down to level 5 and test it for those classes. are they balanced around always having one or two slots/points/dice or not? is it fun to always have at least one grenade in every combat?
fix that and then it won't matter how many 15-minute short rests the party takes (during exploration and travel, obvious ticking-clocks are obvious).
"When you have no [X] left, you regain 1 [X] when you roll Initiative" is terrible horrible no-good very bad design. It's only useful if you're grossly wasteful and blow your resources recklessly and without care or forethought - in fact it actively encourages being a profligate waste with your resources since you only benefit from the feature if you blow your load every chance you get regardless of whether it's a good idea or not. It also leaves you out in the cold if you don't roll initiative a dozen times a day and want to use your resources outside of combat to do things like, y'know...avoid unnecessary combat. Or solve noncombat problems. Or do anything but fight, really. IF you get an Initiative recharge, do not make it contingent on burning your resource pool down to nothing - simply regain an expended use, whether you have unexpended uses remaining or not.
the resource limit for short rest classes (warlock and monk (plus battlemaster, why not)) seems like it's designed specifically to narrow down how many can be used in one burst rather than how many they have in a day. they just need to drag the "when you roll initiative" refill down to level 5 and test it for those classes. are they balanced around always having one or two slots/points/dice or not? is it fun to always have at least one grenade in every combat?
fix that and then it won't matter how many 15-minute short rests the party takes (during exploration and travel, obvious ticking-clocks are obvious).
"When you have no [X] left, you regain 1 [X] when you roll Initiative" is terrible horrible no-good very bad design. It's only useful if you're grossly wasteful and blow your resources recklessly and without care or forethought - in fact it actively encourages being a profligate waste with your resources since you only benefit from the feature if you blow your load every chance you get regardless of whether it's a good idea or not. It also leaves you out in the cold if you don't roll initiative a dozen times a day and want to use your resources outside of combat to do things like, y'know...avoid unnecessary combat. Or solve noncombat problems. Or do anything but fight, really. IF you get an Initiative recharge, do not make it contingent on burning your resource pool down to nothing - simply regain an expended use, whether you have unexpended uses remaining or not.
I have to agree here. Balance around X uses per long rest on average, and make the recharge mechanics something like taking 1 minute to meditate to regain a number of whatever the resource is a maximum of Y times per long rest.
“Profligate”; guess I can check that one off my “words I’ve never expected to see someone use” list.
Regarding the effect itself, I disagree that it’s a terrible feature, but it’s best applied to resources that have little to no out of combat applications. Encouraging the use of the resource is a feature, not a flaw, as it averts the hoarding instinct of saving the resources until you “really need them”, but I agree that if the refresh is based around combat starting then it might not be the best idea to have something with as much general utility as spell slots refresh like that, at least not as the primary refresh mechanism. Ki, sorcery points, and maneuver dice are all good, as they are primarily meant to be used in the context of combat.
I may be crazy, but, I believe that the rules don't actually need a change in short rests as long as tables are willing to work with their players. Obviously any table can change the length of a short rest at their own whim. But making it clearer would help. Obviously I find the issue with 10 minute short rests is the short rest after every fight.
It's generally easier to balance 'short rest every fight' than any longer interval.
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Upcasts; the big two are Hunter's Mark and Hex. Both can last for 8 or 24 hours with concentration. Possibly one or two others that aren't coming to mind right now. Less of an issue with Hex, assuming some form of SR refresh, but one of the perks at higher levels is holding your Hex while you get the slot back. Something like 15-30 minutes would time out all of the fairly short duration spells without seriously hurting ones like these.
10 minutes Short Rest sound good as it is the casting time of rituals (casting Detect Magic on the loot) and Prayer of Healing, so after rolling hit dice can decide if cast it or save the spell slot. Reduces the remaining time of 1 hour spells, but are not terminated.
And if using the resource recovering on SR, limit it to a number, but for resource recovering only, for healing you should be able to use as many as want, to stop the excessive dependency of magical healing and be able to heal by mundane.
I may be crazy, but, I believe that the rules don't actually need a change in short rests as long as tables are willing to work with their players. Obviously any table can change the length of a short rest at their own whim. But making it clearer would help. Obviously I find the issue with 10 minute short rests is the short rest after every fight.
Well, short rest after every fight isn't necessarily an issue. Either you could balance short rest features as per-encounter or you could limit the amount of short rests you can take each day to 2 (yes, a la Baldur's Gate, but it's been suggested before the game too). I'd learn towards the second, since otherwise short rest spellcasting would completely eclipse ritual spellcasting and all short rest features would get a bit wonky out of combat.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
That's the reason of limit by rules. OK as always "each table...", but the abuse should be limited by rules, then set a common balanced base, and later "each table" can remove the limit. Cannot understand why always when limiting is something of the table, but cannot be the opposite way. The rules should establish a common balanced starting point.
Which creates its own issues and follow ups. Like people would still, potentially, fight about when to take a short rest since it would be a limited resource for the whole party it might be back to denying the warlock or monks short rests because they need them a little sooner than the other characters who would still benefit from one. It also kills exploration/social/utility rest casting from the warlock. One benefit I have found with warlock at some tables is the ability to cast spells to solve non-combat issues in times when there isn't a rush. One example is the Fey Lock's Seeming spell, I like that to cast that on the party at the start of the day and just short rest and the first combat or thing we come to the casters looking like big plate guys and the big plate wearing guys look like squishy casters which can give the party an edge at the start of combat. An undead warlock may like to cast Deathward at the start of the day and take a short rest. Limiting the number of short rests would wipe these sort of strategies out. (and it wouldn't necessarily cost the party time either if you were playing an elf and could benefit from a long rest in just 4 hours.)
Essentially there are repercussions for everything, but ultimately I do think both warlock and monk need to function with 0 short rests, 1 short rest or 3 short rests or 4 short rests. Without overshadowing the party too much. Because no matter what happens with short rests every table is ultimately going to run them slightly differently.
That is easy, don't limit the number of SR, the limit is how many times each character can recover resources with SR between LR. A short SR (the 10 minutes one) is always good for rolling hit dice to heal, then each character can decide if uses it for recovering resources as now can be done a limited number of times.
That does end the arguing, but does still ruin the second thing I talked about. Would the limit be on total number of slots recovered or ki recovered or would it be a total number of times each could be recovered?
Number of times. Easier to use and avoid abusing of SR to recover those spent 3 of 10 Ki points when no other needs a rest.
So definitely ruins the first part that I talked about and encourages potentially weird spending habits.
That depends of POV, I don't see taking some time to healing a weird habit. Just like fortunately the thieving was disattached from the Rogue and others can try, the healing so attached to magic is worse than taking a short break to apply some bandages and making use of skills in medicine.
I am not referring to healing. I am referring to weird Ki and Spell slot spending habits. Healing is going to happen as needed with short rests, but if each character is limited to a set number of short rests it is going to cause weird resource spending habits. And if you are going to make short rests so easy and still limit the number of them anyway, why not just give all the spell slots and ki per long rest?
Edit: ultimately I don't believe this conversation is actually all that helpful. Do what you want at your table, but changing the rest rules does not appear to currently be on the horizon for WotC and this revised 5e. Though who knows what the future will hold.
Because the limit is to avoid the abuse for resource recovering, that is precisely the main problem. Remember that is the resource recovering the limit (i.e. the monk meditating for recovering Ki), for healing there is no limit. So it is not like the party make a SR and a character cannot take it for healing (or casting ritual) because the limit.
As always I'd suggest on survey, later then they will do as they want. Don't want to impose anyone, but at the same time is disappointing "imposing" that abusing system to all others that want some more balanced method. As mentioned before the DMG part should get more importance, with options.
There is a limit on healing. It is hit dice. I think the problem we have right now with Short rests is how rigid some GM's are with them and how punishing people make them. It is a mechanic in this role playing GAME, and ignoring that mechanic or overly punishing people for it seems like ignoring a prime mechanic of the game. Personally I feel there are a lot of ways to run short rests and as long as the players and GM agree and it isn't being abused at the table people should be able to have fun with it. Just wish people would work that part out better and ya the DMG is a great place to help with that. Especially if the DMG becomes more intuitive.
Edit: Sorry, sometimes I start losing any kind of point I am making and am not really arguing or anything just kind of having a conversation. If that makes sense. That is definitely what these last couple posts are. More conversation than argument, hope that is understandable.
This is where I see the problem as well. Short rest/long rest need to be revised, and there's got to be a way where it gives more control to the party, but also keeps it balanced for the DM by making tracking days more transparent.
the resource limit for short rest classes (warlock and monk (plus battlemaster, why not)) seems like it's designed specifically to narrow down how many can be used in one burst rather than how many they have in a day. they just need to drag the "when you roll initiative" refill down to level 5 and test it for those classes. are they balanced around always having one or two slots/points/dice or not? is it fun to always have at least one grenade in every combat?
fix that and then it won't matter how many 15-minute short rests the party takes (during exploration and travel, obvious ticking-clocks are obvious).
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
"When you have no [X] left, you regain 1 [X] when you roll Initiative" is terrible horrible no-good very bad design. It's only useful if you're grossly wasteful and blow your resources recklessly and without care or forethought - in fact it actively encourages being a profligate waste with your resources since you only benefit from the feature if you blow your load every chance you get regardless of whether it's a good idea or not. It also leaves you out in the cold if you don't roll initiative a dozen times a day and want to use your resources outside of combat to do things like, y'know...avoid unnecessary combat. Or solve noncombat problems. Or do anything but fight, really. IF you get an Initiative recharge, do not make it contingent on burning your resource pool down to nothing - simply regain an expended use, whether you have unexpended uses remaining or not.
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I have to agree here. Balance around X uses per long rest on average, and make the recharge mechanics something like taking 1 minute to meditate to regain a number of whatever the resource is a maximum of Y times per long rest.
“Profligate”; guess I can check that one off my “words I’ve never expected to see someone use” list.
Regarding the effect itself, I disagree that it’s a terrible feature, but it’s best applied to resources that have little to no out of combat applications. Encouraging the use of the resource is a feature, not a flaw, as it averts the hoarding instinct of saving the resources until you “really need them”, but I agree that if the refresh is based around combat starting then it might not be the best idea to have something with as much general utility as spell slots refresh like that, at least not as the primary refresh mechanism. Ki, sorcery points, and maneuver dice are all good, as they are primarily meant to be used in the context of combat.
It's generally easier to balance 'short rest every fight' than any longer interval.