I am not opposed to a cap on short rest traits per long rest but I do not think one is a good choice for that. Using pact magic as the example as its a warlock thread. Lets say they balance it around the assumption of two short rests or even one for your example. Sometimes they will get 0 and will be in a tighter spot, correspondingly they should sometimes get more than normal and be in a better spot. So if its balances around one maybe two would be the cap, balanced around 2 maybe 4 is the cap. Though I do think it is probably unnecessary, I think Ive seen more than 3 once in all of 5e. And even in that case it did not break the game and the DM ended up using a long term endurance rule adding exhaustion levels
Hold up. So because YOUR DM is really really bad at their job, the entire game system should change to accommodate for YOUR particular issue?
Welcome to the D&D community everyone! Where strangers on the internet attack you for being a bad DM for every conceivable reason!
I really don't get why there's such a shortage of Dms.
If a DM refuses to let the players use core features of the game, how is it not a DM issue?
Because your response is unhelpful and demoralizing.
It's the "sucks to suck" and "f*** you I got mine!" Mentality that just slowly erodes any remaining joy in life and excuses people for reaching greater peaks of a***holery
Hold up. So because YOUR DM is really really bad at their job, the entire game system should change to accommodate for YOUR particular issue?
Welcome to the D&D community everyone! Where strangers on the internet attack you for being a bad DM for every conceivable reason!
I really don't get why there's such a shortage of Dms.
If a DM refuses to let the players use core features of the game, how is it not a DM issue?
Because your response is unhelpful and demoralizing.
It's the "sucks to suck" and "f*** you I got mine!" Mentality that just slowly erodes any remaining joy in life and excuses people for reaching greater peaks of a***holery
No it isn't.
What we have is someone complaining that Short Rests are a bad mechanic because in their personal games the DM refuses to let them have any.
If the entire argument stems from the DM not playing the game like the rules suggest it is played, then it is is unreasonable to expect the game developers to change the entire system for your table.
Sometimes it is interesting to put yourself in someone else's shoes and try to understand what they are arguing, instead of wanting to bash them.
True, but when that other person seems to only be able to communicate via insults and hyperbole, while insinuating that everyone else is having badwrongfun, it becomes difficult to consider their pov.
arguing about short rests is overwhelming the warlock spellslots topic. just remove short rest refill of pact slots already. let Magical Cunning do all the work. let's balance that feature as written (for now!) by deciding how many uses. decide how many pact slots in a day (per tier of play, please) are too many, take a step back, and schedule it. later we can discuss adjusting the feature for quality of life (no 'empty' requirement? match Chan. Divinity schedule/regain? what about spell slots? etc) or debating whether pact slots matter or whatever.
first, the plank in our eye, later the splinter?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
arguing about short rests is overwhelming the warlock spellslots topic. just remove short rest refill of pact slots already. let Magical Cunning do all the work. let's balance that feature as written (for now!) by deciding how many uses. decide how many pact slots in a day (per tier of play, please) are too many, take a step back, and schedule it. later we can discuss adjusting the feature for quality of life (no 'empty' requirement? match Chan. Divinity schedule/regain? what about spell slots? etc) or debating whether pact slots matter or whatever.
first, the plank in our eye, later the splinter?
WotC is trying to go the exact other direction and they are adding "refill at short rest" mechanics to other classes as well.
arguing about short rests is overwhelming the warlock spellslots topic. just remove short rest refill of pact slots already. let Magical Cunning do all the work. let's balance that feature as written (for now!) by deciding how many uses. decide how many pact slots in a day (per tier of play, please) are too many, take a step back, and schedule it. later we can discuss adjusting the feature for quality of life (no 'empty' requirement? match Chan. Divinity schedule/regain? what about spell slots? etc) or debating whether pact slots matter or whatever.
first, the plank in our eye, later the splinter?
I've got no real, fundamental problem with short rest recovery of pact slots, but obviously others do. My preliminary suggestion would be for Magical Cunning to be usable proficiency bonus times per day combined with removing pact slot recovery on a short rest. This might need to be adjusted by modifying when additional pact slots are awarded, or maybe having Magical Cunning function to regain all slots, or at least more than just one.
arguing about short rests is overwhelming the warlock spellslots topic. just remove short rest refill of pact slots already. let Magical Cunning do all the work. let's balance that feature as written (for now!) by deciding how many uses. decide how many pact slots in a day (per tier of play, please) are too many, take a step back, and schedule it. later we can discuss adjusting the feature for quality of life (no 'empty' requirement? match Chan. Divinity schedule/regain? what about spell slots? etc) or debating whether pact slots matter or whatever.
My preliminary suggestion would be for Magical Cunning to be usable proficiency bonus times per day combined with removing pact slot recovery on a short rest. This might need to be adjusted by modifying when additional pact slots are awarded, or maybe having Magical Cunning function to regain all slots, or at least more than just one.
Great minds think alike! Or in the absence of greatness, maybe "Okay minds meander in the same direction?" :)
Related question (kinda): What sort of changes would you all like to see to the Warlock spell list? We get some nice additions through the pact spells feature, but are there any spells from any other list that you feel are archetypically warlocky and ought to be imported for all flavours of pactbound spellslingers?
arguing about short rests is overwhelming the warlock spellslots topic. just remove short rest refill of pact slots already. let Magical Cunning do all the work. let's balance that feature as written (for now!) by deciding how many uses. decide how many pact slots in a day (per tier of play, please) are too many, take a step back, and schedule it. later we can discuss adjusting the feature for quality of life (no 'empty' requirement? match Chan. Divinity schedule/regain? what about spell slots? etc) or debating whether pact slots matter or whatever.
first, the plank in our eye, later the splinter?
WotC is trying to go the exact other direction and they are adding "refill at short rest" mechanics to other classes as well.
That really is something very curious. With Tasha's and Mordenkainen they were clearly going in the direction of limiting the features that were reloaded with short rest. To the point where many people speculated that they wanted to remove short rests from the game. Jeremy Crawford says that was never the case, but I have my doubts. In any case, it is true that now it seems that they are going in the direction of giving all classes an excuse to do short rests. Do you think that would have been the same if the community had accepted the warlock half caster? I do not think so.
arguing about short rests is overwhelming the warlock spellslots topic. just remove short rest refill of pact slots already. let Magical Cunning do all the work. let's balance that feature as written (for now!) by deciding how many uses. decide how many pact slots in a day (per tier of play, please) are too many, take a step back, and schedule it. later we can discuss adjusting the feature for quality of life (no 'empty' requirement? match Chan. Divinity schedule/regain? what about spell slots? etc) or debating whether pact slots matter or whatever.
first, the plank in our eye, later the splinter?
WotC is trying to go the exact other direction and they are adding "refill at short rest" mechanics to other classes as well.
That really is something very curious. With Tasha's and Mordenkainen they were clearly going in the direction of limiting the features that were reloaded with short rest. To the point where many people speculated that they wanted to remove short rests from the game. Jeremy Crawford says that was never the case, but I have my doubts. In any case, it is true that now it seems that they are going in the direction of giving all classes an excuse to do short rests. Do you think that would have been the same if the community had accepted the warlock half caster? I do not think so.
i've been wondering if half-caster would have been a different thing altogether without that big arcane spell list behind it...
as for the other classes getting/keeping/expanding short rest stuff, ignore that. if they fix the regularity of short rests, that's just bonus. until then, i'm curious if a certain number of Magical Cunning uses could produce acceptably reliable results to tables that rest a lot and tables who jog to keep their heartrate up between encounters.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
I have always liked the idea that all classes have some abilities recharge on a short rest and the remainder recharge on a long rest.
Samesies! Or, rather, that every class would benefit equally (-ish) from the various rest and recovery mechanics. In that no class would intrinsically have reason to skip a short rest, for instance. Rogues, for example, they really just keep going until their hit points run out. Barbarians only have one core resource, recovered on a long rest. And so on. Maybe these classes could have a small feature or boon. Maybe rogues could gain heroic inspiration, or barbarians replenishing a pool of temp HP (now a part of their Unarmed Defence feature), et cetera?
Barbarian should get 1 rage back on a SR, one luck point that recharges on a SR for Rogue would be cool & thematic for them but would have to be higher level feature.
Barbarian should get 1 rage back on a SR, one luck point that recharges on a SR for Rogue would be cool & thematic for them but would have to be higher level feature.
Rogues don't really need short rests. They're one of the few classes without resources at all really.... well, arcane trickster. I'd say a slightly higher HP recovery could help them out, as they're glass cannons. (Really low AC, lower hit points for a melee fighter - d8 rather than the fighter's d10 or Barb's d12, and both of them get pretty good AC. Monk gets extra AC bonus as well. Even spellcasters with the same HP die get better AC.)
Rogues are great for their simplicity, and I don't like screwing with the class much, as any attempt tends to be a nerf.
But the one thing they suffer from is not really having incentive at higher levels in the subclasses, so most of the time they just get multiclass into and out of.
All other classes should have resources regained at short rest, it's just a balance of how much to make it worthwhile without being game breaking. And short rest shouldn't necessarily be 1 hour. 15 min would seem fine.
You know, Bob... You just gave me an idea (oh no). But I'll put that one in a new thread since it's got nothing to do with warlocks and their slotty behaviour :)
WotC is trying to go the exact other direction and they are adding "refill at short rest" mechanics to other classes as well.
seems that way. i really like the UA Channel Divinity model of "you have _x_ uses, you regain 1 upon short rest." ...no mention of max refills or only when empty. short and sweet.
I've got no real, fundamental problem with short rest recovery of pact slots, but obviously others do. My preliminary suggestion would be for Magical Cunning to be usable proficiency bonus times per day combined with removing pact slot recovery on a short rest. This might need to be adjusted by modifying when additional pact slots are awarded, or maybe having Magical Cunning function to regain all slots, or at least more than just one.
seems about right. just for example, @lv.9 warlock with 4 MC uses would have access to 6 pact slots per long rest, same as a two short rest day. base wizards would have had access to 14 spell casts during that same time including one 5th-level (or two upon Arcane Recovery short rest!). there's still the warlock issue of getting significantly more 5th-level spells than wizards, but this exercise wasn't aiming to fix that.
looking further ahead, it scales a little beyond what i can cover with a napkin... @lv.11 warlock with 4 MC uses gets 11 pact slots (+1MA) per long rest. ((short-rest warlock: 12 pact slots = 3 rests & wizard: 16 casts +6AR)) @lv.13 warlock with 5 MC uses gets 13 pact slots (+2MA) per long rest. ((short-rest warlock: 12 pact slots = 3 rests & wizard: 17 casts +7AR)) @lv.17 warlock with 6 MC uses gets 16 pact slots (+4MA) per long rest. ((short-rest warlock: 16 pact slots = 4 rests & wizard: 19 casts +9AR))
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
It's okay, Rumseyrummyroo, you can use my table if you want~~ ;)
But, to be fair, I didn't do a comparison analysis in it, so it's nice to hold it up to a traditional full-caster with a very similar recovery mechanic.
One thing that I'm waffling back and forth over on this model is whether to discard the "only when no pact slots remaining" verbiage.
PROS + Self-limiting pact slot system. A character will only have full slots at the start of the day, and thereafter only have 1-2 from Arcane Cunning refill + Much extended work-day due to drip feeding of pact slots. Can't spend them all in one place. + Slot Security. Without being beholden to short rests, a warlock can have a good idea of how many resources they have over the course of the day. This opens up utility use instead of hoarding.
CONS - Lowered Burst Potential. Past level 10, the character will likely go into encounters with less available slots than the UA7 version, limiting max-nova builds relying on Spirit Shroud + Smite x2/x3. - Exponential pact slot gain since it scales with two multiplicative factors: proficiency bonus and half value of max slots (rounded up)
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I am not opposed to a cap on short rest traits per long rest but I do not think one is a good choice for that. Using pact magic as the example as its a warlock thread. Lets say they balance it around the assumption of two short rests or even one for your example. Sometimes they will get 0 and will be in a tighter spot, correspondingly they should sometimes get more than normal and be in a better spot. So if its balances around one maybe two would be the cap, balanced around 2 maybe 4 is the cap. Though I do think it is probably unnecessary, I think Ive seen more than 3 once in all of 5e. And even in that case it did not break the game and the DM ended up using a long term endurance rule adding exhaustion levels
If a DM refuses to let the players use core features of the game, how is it not a DM issue?
Because your response is unhelpful and demoralizing.
It's the "sucks to suck" and "f*** you I got mine!" Mentality that just slowly erodes any remaining joy in life and excuses people for reaching greater peaks of a***holery
No it isn't.
What we have is someone complaining that Short Rests are a bad mechanic because in their personal games the DM refuses to let them have any.
If the entire argument stems from the DM not playing the game like the rules suggest it is played, then it is is unreasonable to expect the game developers to change the entire system for your table.
Sometimes it is interesting to put yourself in someone else's shoes and try to understand what they are arguing, instead of wanting to bash them.
True, but when that other person seems to only be able to communicate via insults and hyperbole, while insinuating that everyone else is having badwrongfun, it becomes difficult to consider their pov.
arguing about short rests is overwhelming the warlock spellslots topic. just remove short rest refill of pact slots already. let Magical Cunning do all the work. let's balance that feature as written (for now!) by deciding how many uses. decide how many pact slots in a day (per tier of play, please) are too many, take a step back, and schedule it. later we can discuss adjusting the feature for quality of life (no 'empty' requirement? match Chan. Divinity schedule/regain? what about spell slots? etc) or debating whether pact slots matter or whatever.
first, the plank in our eye, later the splinter?
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
WotC is trying to go the exact other direction and they are adding "refill at short rest" mechanics to other classes as well.
I've got no real, fundamental problem with short rest recovery of pact slots, but obviously others do. My preliminary suggestion would be for Magical Cunning to be usable proficiency bonus times per day combined with removing pact slot recovery on a short rest. This might need to be adjusted by modifying when additional pact slots are awarded, or maybe having Magical Cunning function to regain all slots, or at least more than just one.
Hmm? Why, that sounds like a marvellous idea, Rumsey! :)
Your proposal has my full support! (such as it is, since I'm really just lounging under my umbrella here)
Great minds think alike! Or in the absence of greatness, maybe "Okay minds meander in the same direction?" :)
Related question (kinda): What sort of changes would you all like to see to the Warlock spell list? We get some nice additions through the pact spells feature, but are there any spells from any other list that you feel are archetypically warlocky and ought to be imported for all flavours of pactbound spellslingers?
That really is something very curious. With Tasha's and Mordenkainen they were clearly going in the direction of limiting the features that were reloaded with short rest. To the point where many people speculated that they wanted to remove short rests from the game. Jeremy Crawford says that was never the case, but I have my doubts.
In any case, it is true that now it seems that they are going in the direction of giving all classes an excuse to do short rests. Do you think that would have been the same if the community had accepted the warlock half caster? I do not think so.
i've been wondering if half-caster would have been a different thing altogether without that big arcane spell list behind it...
as for the other classes getting/keeping/expanding short rest stuff, ignore that. if they fix the regularity of short rests, that's just bonus. until then, i'm curious if a certain number of Magical Cunning uses could produce acceptably reliable results to tables that rest a lot and tables who jog to keep their heartrate up between encounters.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
I have always liked the idea that all classes have some abilities recharge on a short rest and the remainder recharge on a long rest.
Samesies! Or, rather, that every class would benefit equally (-ish) from the various rest and recovery mechanics. In that no class would intrinsically have reason to skip a short rest, for instance. Rogues, for example, they really just keep going until their hit points run out. Barbarians only have one core resource, recovered on a long rest. And so on. Maybe these classes could have a small feature or boon. Maybe rogues could gain heroic inspiration, or barbarians replenishing a pool of temp HP (now a part of their Unarmed Defence feature), et cetera?
Barbarian should get 1 rage back on a SR, one luck point that recharges on a SR for Rogue would be cool & thematic for them but would have to be higher level feature.
Rogues don't really need short rests. They're one of the few classes without resources at all really.... well, arcane trickster. I'd say a slightly higher HP recovery could help them out, as they're glass cannons. (Really low AC, lower hit points for a melee fighter - d8 rather than the fighter's d10 or Barb's d12, and both of them get pretty good AC. Monk gets extra AC bonus as well. Even spellcasters with the same HP die get better AC.)
Rogues are great for their simplicity, and I don't like screwing with the class much, as any attempt tends to be a nerf.
But the one thing they suffer from is not really having incentive at higher levels in the subclasses, so most of the time they just get multiclass into and out of.
All other classes should have resources regained at short rest, it's just a balance of how much to make it worthwhile without being game breaking. And short rest shouldn't necessarily be 1 hour. 15 min would seem fine.
I'm serious about the rogue too.
DO NOT F*** WITH OUR SNEAK ATTACK DAMAGE....
There's things we need but that's like the rogue's one and only combat thing. Do. Not. Screw. With. It.
You know, Bob... You just gave me an idea (oh no). But I'll put that one in a new thread since it's got nothing to do with warlocks and their slotty behaviour :)
seems that way. i really like the UA Channel Divinity model of "you have _x_ uses, you regain 1 upon short rest." ...no mention of max refills or only when empty. short and sweet.
haha yeah, it was everyone else who went off chasing fairies when they left that thought behind.
seems about right. just for example, @lv.9 warlock with 4 MC uses would have access to 6 pact slots per long rest, same as a two short rest day. base wizards would have had access to 14 spell casts during that same time including one 5th-level (or two upon Arcane Recovery short rest!). there's still the warlock issue of getting significantly more 5th-level spells than wizards, but this exercise wasn't aiming to fix that.
looking further ahead, it scales a little beyond what i can cover with a napkin...
@lv.11 warlock with 4 MC uses gets 11 pact slots (+1MA) per long rest. ((short-rest warlock: 12 pact slots = 3 rests & wizard: 16 casts +6AR))
@lv.13 warlock with 5 MC uses gets 13 pact slots (+2MA) per long rest. ((short-rest warlock: 12 pact slots = 3 rests & wizard: 17 casts +7AR))
@lv.17 warlock with 6 MC uses gets 16 pact slots (+4MA) per long rest. ((short-rest warlock: 16 pact slots = 4 rests & wizard: 19 casts +9AR))
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
It's okay, Rumseyrummyroo, you can use my table if you want~~ ;)
But, to be fair, I didn't do a comparison analysis in it, so it's nice to hold it up to a traditional full-caster with a very similar recovery mechanic.
One thing that I'm waffling back and forth over on this model is whether to discard the "only when no pact slots remaining" verbiage.
PROS
+ Self-limiting pact slot system. A character will only have full slots at the start of the day, and thereafter only have 1-2 from Arcane Cunning refill
+ Much extended work-day due to drip feeding of pact slots. Can't spend them all in one place.
+ Slot Security. Without being beholden to short rests, a warlock can have a good idea of how many resources they have over the course of the day. This opens up utility use instead of hoarding.
CONS
- Lowered Burst Potential. Past level 10, the character will likely go into encounters with less available slots than the UA7 version, limiting max-nova builds relying on Spirit Shroud + Smite x2/x3.
- Exponential pact slot gain since it scales with two multiplicative factors: proficiency bonus and half value of max slots (rounded up)