Taking the risk of giving WotC more monetising opportunities (hi guys! send me my cheque later, yeah?), but would it be a good or bad idea to split the DMG into two books instead? The Worldbuilder's Guide, on how to make your campaign world, filling it with interesting history and events, NPCs, the big picture stuff. And then The Dungeonmaster's Guide that focuses on adventure design, pacing, constructing challenges and encounters, treasure and rewards, the nitty gritty stuff.
They did say they will be pushing the world building stuff later in the book for a better focus on all the basic nitty gritty stuff first, but I could definitely see another book that fleshes out more ideas and options for world building.
The thing is the world building is mostly fluff. Random tables for gods, talk of creating factions with random tables for it, etc. It's too hands off to help you develop a story and too hands on in that it wants you to use its story.. if that makes sense. It's also the thing I find DM's struggle with the least, either ripping right from other media or having a long time story they already want to tell. .
Taking the risk of giving WotC more monetising opportunities (hi guys! send me my cheque later, yeah?), but would it be a good or bad idea to split the DMG into two books instead? The Worldbuilder's Guide, on how to make your campaign world, filling it with interesting history and events, NPCs, the big picture stuff. And then The Dungeonmaster's Guide that focuses on adventure design, pacing, constructing challenges and encounters, treasure and rewards, the nitty gritty stuff.
They did say they will be pushing the world building stuff later in the book for a better focus on all the basic nitty gritty stuff first, but I could definitely see another book that fleshes out more ideas and options for world building.
they have to be careful not to step on 3rd party toes, no matter what some people say. honestly, i feel like rather than either avoiding toe-steps or bringing all of dm's guild into DBB, there's a middle ground to be found in just asking the most popular 3rd party authors to come join an official worldbuilding anthology. we get a go-to big book, 'small' name authors get big recognition, and WotC gets to look like they care while actually only sharing their storefront with one book.
...and stick neil gaiman in it, too. he loves anthologies. also, i'd buy that.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
It doesn't have to be an hour, and it doesn't have to kill the pace. The monk needs help and further revision. The Warlock needs some extra tweaks, but this warlock is functional with just 1 short rest per adventuring day. Everyone needs one short rest to spend hit dice to continue the adventure.
Everything is currently balanced around it being an hour. Less than that, and Warlocks will be able to do things like cast an hour long summon or buff and immediately recover their spell slots, or "sacrifice" their pact slots to recharge an item and then quickly get them back, etc.
The first issue can easily be solved by either making short rests break concentration, or at least doing so for the Warlock - and I will admit I exploited that loophole with Armor of Agathys when I played a hexblade and the GM used 15 minute short rests.
So the moment you take a single level of Warlock your short rests are forever altered?
And what about concentration spells that last even longer than an hour, like Hex? Are you unable to maintain concentration on those while taking a breather?
Taking the risk of giving WotC more monetising opportunities (hi guys! send me my cheque later, yeah?), but would it be a good or bad idea to split the DMG into two books instead? The Worldbuilder's Guide, on how to make your campaign world, filling it with interesting history and events, NPCs, the big picture stuff. And then The Dungeonmaster's Guide that focuses on adventure design, pacing, constructing challenges and encounters, treasure and rewards, the nitty gritty stuff.
They did say they will be pushing the world building stuff later in the book for a better focus on all the basic nitty gritty stuff first, but I could definitely see another book that fleshes out more ideas and options for world building.
they have to be careful not to step on 3rd party toes, no matter what some people say. honestly, i feel like rather than either avoiding toe-steps or bringing all of dm's guild into DBB, there's a middle ground to be found in just asking the most popular 3rd party authors to come join an official worldbuilding anthology. we get a go-to big book, 'small' name authors get big recognition, and WotC gets to look like they care while actually only sharing their storefront with one book.
...and stick neil gaiman in it, too. he loves anthologies. also, i'd buy that.
It doesn't have to be an hour, and it doesn't have to kill the pace. The monk needs help and further revision. The Warlock needs some extra tweaks, but this warlock is functional with just 1 short rest per adventuring day. Everyone needs one short rest to spend hit dice to continue the adventure.
Everything is currently balanced around it being an hour. Less than that, and Warlocks will be able to do things like cast an hour long summon or buff and immediately recover their spell slots, or "sacrifice" their pact slots to recharge an item and then quickly get them back, etc.
The first issue can easily be solved by either making short rests break concentration, or at least doing so for the Warlock - and I will admit I exploited that loophole with Armor of Agathys when I played a hexblade and the GM used 15 minute short rests.
So the moment you take a single level of Warlock your short rests are forever altered?
And what about concentration spells that last even longer than an hour, like Hex? Are you unable to maintain concentration on those while taking a breather?
No, you don't. The system is more antagonistic to never taking a single short rest than it is to the length of the short rests. Not every set rule or optional rule works for every table. If your table doesn't work with the 5 minute short rest because of rest abuse, don't do the 5 minute rest. If your table doesn't work with the 1 hour short rest because it kills the pace of the game and doesn't work and thus you NEVER take a short rest don't make the short rest an hour. The question is "how many combats are you having in a day?, How are you spending hit dice to continue your adventure?" If the answer is, only 1 or 2 combats... make what you usually have as long rest into short rest and have "down time" be long rests.
Adjust it for YOUR table, your adjustment isn't going to work for me, and my adjustment isn't going to work for you, but short rests ARE modular, it DOESNT have to be an hour.
Taking the risk of giving WotC more monetising opportunities (hi guys! send me my cheque later, yeah?), but would it be a good or bad idea to split the DMG into two books instead? The Worldbuilder's Guide, on how to make your campaign world, filling it with interesting history and events, NPCs, the big picture stuff. And then The Dungeonmaster's Guide that focuses on adventure design, pacing, constructing challenges and encounters, treasure and rewards, the nitty gritty stuff.
They did say they will be pushing the world building stuff later in the book for a better focus on all the basic nitty gritty stuff first, but I could definitely see another book that fleshes out more ideas and options for world building.
they have to be careful not to step on 3rd party toes, no matter what some people say. honestly, i feel like rather than either avoiding toe-steps or bringing all of dm's guild into DBB, there's a middle ground to be found in just asking the most popular 3rd party authors to come join an official worldbuilding anthology. we get a go-to big book, 'small' name authors get big recognition, and WotC gets to look like they care while actually only sharing their storefront with one book.
...and stick neil gaiman in it, too. he loves anthologies. also, i'd buy that.
Put Neil Gaiman's name on the front of a D&D book and I've already got 20 collector's editions.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It doesn't have to be an hour, and it doesn't have to kill the pace. The monk needs help and further revision. The Warlock needs some extra tweaks, but this warlock is functional with just 1 short rest per adventuring day. Everyone needs one short rest to spend hit dice to continue the adventure.
Everything is currently balanced around it being an hour. Less than that, and Warlocks will be able to do things like cast an hour long summon or buff and immediately recover their spell slots, or "sacrifice" their pact slots to recharge an item and then quickly get them back, etc.
The first issue can easily be solved by either making short rests break concentration, or at least doing so for the Warlock - and I will admit I exploited that loophole with Armor of Agathys when I played a hexblade and the GM used 15 minute short rests.
So the moment you take a single level of Warlock your short rests are forever altered?
And what about concentration spells that last even longer than an hour, like Hex? Are you unable to maintain concentration on those while taking a breather?
No, you don't. The system is more antagonistic to never taking a single short rest than it is to the length of the short rests. Not every set rule or optional rule works for every table. If your table doesn't work with the 5 minute short rest because of rest abuse, don't do the 5 minute rest. If your table doesn't work with the 1 hour short rest because it kills the pace of the game and doesn't work and thus you NEVER take a short rest don't make the short rest an hour. The question is "how many combats are you having in a day?, How are you spending hit dice to continue your adventure?" If the answer is, only 1 or 2 combats... make what you usually have as long rest into short rest and have "down time" be long rests.
Adjust it for YOUR table, your adjustment isn't going to work for me, and my adjustment isn't going to work for you, but short rests ARE modular, it DOESNT have to be an hour.
Taking advantage of a poorly-conceived houserule isn't abuse though. If I know I can repeatedly get back my spell slots in 5 minutes but there are several buffs, batteries and other uses for them in the system that last much longer than that, that's just intuitive/optimal play. If on the other hand getting them back takes an hour, the opportunities for that are sharply reduced.
It doesn't have to be an hour, and it doesn't have to kill the pace. The monk needs help and further revision. The Warlock needs some extra tweaks, but this warlock is functional with just 1 short rest per adventuring day. Everyone needs one short rest to spend hit dice to continue the adventure.
Everything is currently balanced around it being an hour. Less than that, and Warlocks will be able to do things like cast an hour long summon or buff and immediately recover their spell slots, or "sacrifice" their pact slots to recharge an item and then quickly get them back, etc.
The first issue can easily be solved by either making short rests break concentration, or at least doing so for the Warlock - and I will admit I exploited that loophole with Armor of Agathys when I played a hexblade and the GM used 15 minute short rests.
So the moment you take a single level of Warlock your short rests are forever altered?
And what about concentration spells that last even longer than an hour, like Hex? Are you unable to maintain concentration on those while taking a breather?
No, you don't. The system is more antagonistic to never taking a single short rest than it is to the length of the short rests. Not every set rule or optional rule works for every table. If your table doesn't work with the 5 minute short rest because of rest abuse, don't do the 5 minute rest. If your table doesn't work with the 1 hour short rest because it kills the pace of the game and doesn't work and thus you NEVER take a short rest don't make the short rest an hour. The question is "how many combats are you having in a day?, How are you spending hit dice to continue your adventure?" If the answer is, only 1 or 2 combats... make what you usually have as long rest into short rest and have "down time" be long rests.
Adjust it for YOUR table, your adjustment isn't going to work for me, and my adjustment isn't going to work for you, but short rests ARE modular, it DOESNT have to be an hour.
Taking advantage of a poorly-conceived houserule isn't abuse though. If I know I can repeatedly get back my spell slots in 5 minutes but there are several buffs, batteries and other uses for them in the system that last much longer than that, that's just intuitive/optimal play. If on the other hand getting them back takes an hour, the opportunities for that are sharply reduced.
It isn't a house rule. It is in the DMG, Page 267, and includes suggestions for how to adjust your game in addition to the rests. or those that don't know the 5 minute/1hour recovery suggests that 1 hour only recovers HALF a casters spell slots and only recovers those of 5th level or lower and half a persons health for a full recovery take a full 8. Apply the same logic to 5 minute short rests for warlocks they get half, 1 hour they get their long rest abilities and all their slots back while full casters get half their slots back and their long rest abilities that are of 11th level or lower, and everyone recovers half their health and hit dice back, with a full 8 giving everything back,
Tables are already adjusting a bunch of other things.
And again this warlock works with 1 short rest. Are you telling me your group NEVER takes a short rest? If they aren't then you NEED to adjust the short rests.
Edit: the adjustment from table to table, should match the play FOR THE TABLE. If the people are abusing it than that doesn't work for the table, the hour long was working just fine at that point and people are whining for the purpose of whining.
Edit 2: and again, this warlock doesn't "rely" on short rests any more than any other class. Every class relies on at least one short rest to spend hit dice and recover health. This warlock is effective with just 1 short rest. And is effective with 0 rests at 1,2,3,and 5 and possibly 11 on.... 5 5th level spells + 1 6th with 7 invocations.... I would have to run some numbers on that one.
If you're talking specifically about the "Epic Heroism" variant here:
Epic Heroism
This variant uses a short rest of 5 minutes and a long rest of 1 hour. This change makes combat more routine, since characters can easily recover from every battle. You might want to make combat encounters more difficult to compensate.
Spellcasters using this system can afford to burn through spell slots quickly, especially at higher levels. Consider allowing spellcasters to restore expended spell slots equal to only half their maximum spell slots (rounded down) at the end of a long rest, and to limit spell slots restored to 5th level or lower. Only a full 8-hour rest will allow a spellcaster to restore all spell slots and to regain spell slots of 6th level or higher.
then that's not intended for standard play, that's intended for a superhero style game with more difficult or frequent combat. I thought your suggestion was intended for regular D&D. Of course if you want epic hero spellcasters then 5 minute short rests are fine, but they need to get the default game right first before any variants.
If you're talking specifically about the "Epic Heroism" variant here:
Epic Heroism
This variant uses a short rest of 5 minutes and a long rest of 1 hour. This change makes combat more routine, since characters can easily recover from every battle. You might want to make combat encounters more difficult to compensate.
Spellcasters using this system can afford to burn through spell slots quickly, especially at higher levels. Consider allowing spellcasters to restore expended spell slots equal to only half their maximum spell slots (rounded down) at the end of a long rest, and to limit spell slots restored to 5th level or lower. Only a full 8-hour rest will allow a spellcaster to restore all spell slots and to regain spell slots of 6th level or higher.
then that's not intended for standard play, that's intended for a superhero style game with more difficult or frequent combat. I thought your suggestion was intended for regular D&D. Of course if you want epic hero spellcasters then 5 minute short rests are fine, but they need to get the default game right first before any variants.
Right, but what is standard play? We just had a conversation about it.
Standard Play isn't standard. And when the complaint is that short rests take too long there is too much going on to take an hour, and villains are constantly moving, so on and so forth. Epic Heroism becomes appropriate for that game.
When the conversation is "we only have one or 2 fights a day and the rest is all other types of encounters" the gritty realism rules become appropriate for that game.
If you aren't playing a standard game, the standard rest rules don't apply.
If you are playing a standard game, then this warlocks works just fine with 1 maybe 2 short rest and in a standard game, getting 1 or 2 short rests with an hour rest isn't a problem. If it is a problem, you aren't playing a "standard" game and need to adjust it for your game to make 1 or 2 short rests a day work.
If you're talking specifically about the "Epic Heroism" variant here:
Epic Heroism
This variant uses a short rest of 5 minutes and a long rest of 1 hour. This change makes combat more routine, since characters can easily recover from every battle. You might want to make combat encounters more difficult to compensate.
Spellcasters using this system can afford to burn through spell slots quickly, especially at higher levels. Consider allowing spellcasters to restore expended spell slots equal to only half their maximum spell slots (rounded down) at the end of a long rest, and to limit spell slots restored to 5th level or lower. Only a full 8-hour rest will allow a spellcaster to restore all spell slots and to regain spell slots of 6th level or higher.
then that's not intended for standard play, that's intended for a superhero style game with more difficult or frequent combat. I thought your suggestion was intended for regular D&D. Of course if you want epic hero spellcasters then 5 minute short rests are fine, but they need to get the default game right first before any variants.
Right, but what is standard play? We just had a conversation about it.
Standard Play isn't standard. And when the complaint is that short rests take too long there is too much going on to take an hour, and villains are constantly moving, so on and so forth. Epic Heroism becomes appropriate for that game.
When the conversation is "we only have one or 2 fights a day and the rest is all other types of encounters" the gritty realism rules become appropriate for that game.
If you aren't playing a standard game, the standard rest rules don't apply.
If you are playing a standard game, then this warlocks works just fine with 1 maybe 2 short rest and in a standard game, getting 1 or 2 short rests with an hour rest isn't a problem. If it is a problem, you aren't playing a "standard" game and need to adjust it for your game to make 1 or 2 short rests a day work.
This sums it up. WotC builds rules assuming certain parameters as the 'standard' for an in game adventure day. As soon as you tweak anything about the rules or you run storylines that don't fit within those assumptions you need to recognize that you may need to tweak additional aspects of play to accommodate your initial deviations. Maybe that knock on effect means you need to adjust rest times, maybe it's the elimination of certain spells, maybe it's a tweak to how some skills work, or a homebrew that lets a class recharge in novel ways, or an extra goblin here and there in an encounter. It all happens to accommodate your first deviation from the standard whether that deviation is as large as zero rests mid day/only one encounter a day/free feats every ASI level, or as small as drinking a potion is a bonus action. Whatever it is it all flows from that first deviation, and that's OK. Tweaking rules to make them work for your specific desires is at the core of TTRPGs.
Either you get no short rests a day because you're actually adventuring and time is real, or you get so many short rests per day that your "short rest recharge" abilities are at-will abilities in all but name. There is no in between. Short rests are bad broken game design and they will never work "as intended", unless you bully your DM into making your entire party invulnerable to all harm and intervention for an hour, twelve times per day.
I don't love getting involved in these forum wars, but I wanted to point out that this is false. I have shifted my view on the great warlock war of 23, and generally agree with your points about the improvements that warlock needs and deserves(and has not gotten.) BUT, I think you weaken your position and your credibility by making arguments based partially on overgeneralizations or hyperbole. I understand that short rests are not generally balanced. That does not mean that nobody ever gets their two short rests a day. That does not even mean that only 1% of players do. Speaking from anecdotal and personal experience, I know of and play in plenty of games that get around 2 short rests a day. Claiming that nobody ever does x or warlock is never ever balanced or x is always some horrible thing (etc) makes you seem like a rambling fool and I kind of wish you would stop writing in such a manner. I think you have interesting and valuable things to say, but they get undermined by what seems to be a mixture of barely contained rage and excessive anecdotal hyperbole. That is all, I hope everyone reading this has a great day/evening and remembers that the people they are arguing with are most likely not bad people.
Expanding on the short rest thing real quick. A big thing that I do not like about the optional rest rules are their names. There is a stigma that the "Gritty realism" Rest rules are meant to be used for super gritty and edgy games with hyper realism for everything. It isn't the rule itself explains that its intended use is in games with more intrigue and exploration where combat is few and far between and is encouraged to be avoided. This doesn't mean it has to be hyper realistic or super gritty if you prefer games where the players do a lot of exploration and social encounters and only do 1 big fight a day.
The Heroic Heroism is also just a poorly named rule. It is not just for super hero games where everyone is super powerful. The other problem is it is largely an incomplete rule. It acknowledges there are issues that it causes and make SOME suggestions on how to address them, but in my opinion not enough. So here I am simply going to make my full suggestions for all the rules for this one AND say what I think the types of games it should be used in.
First: It acknowledges casters are an issue and that they should only recover half their spells of 5th level or lower on a 1 hour long and should need a full 8 for all their spells back. I believe this should also apply to health and hit dice. I also will remind that the rules state that you can only benefit from one long rest per 24 hour period, I believe that applies to this as well. I also believe the half recovery should also apply to long rest features with charges, like the new misty step from warlock or the psi fighters psionic energy dice. And the "not recovered" should also apply to one time use per long rest abilities from class levels of 11 or higher.
Second: Since it acknowledges the fact that full spell recovery is an issue in the long rest portion, we should acknowledge it as well in short, Warlocks should only get half their slots back in a 5 minute short, same with monks and ki and other abilities with multiple charges like the fighter.
Third as some have pointed out there is potential for abuse with 5 minute shorts, so by limiting it to once per 1 hour period or until after the party rolls initiative again you can cut out a lot of potential spell duration abuse.
Now where should it be used, it should be used in super hero games for one where characters want to feel super powerful in a day, but it can also be used in high pace games where the clock is constantly ticking and every second counts, it can be combined with the healer kit dependency and slow natural healing rules to add greater tension and more 'realism' back into the game.
Ultimately these rest rules are under utilized in areas they should be the Epic Heroism one is incomplete and both of them are misnomers about what they are for. Their real names should be fast paced action, and intrigue/exploration rest rules.
If you're talking specifically about the "Epic Heroism" variant here:
Epic Heroism
This variant uses a short rest of 5 minutes and a long rest of 1 hour. This change makes combat more routine, since characters can easily recover from every battle. You might want to make combat encounters more difficult to compensate.
Spellcasters using this system can afford to burn through spell slots quickly, especially at higher levels. Consider allowing spellcasters to restore expended spell slots equal to only half their maximum spell slots (rounded down) at the end of a long rest, and to limit spell slots restored to 5th level or lower. Only a full 8-hour rest will allow a spellcaster to restore all spell slots and to regain spell slots of 6th level or higher.
then that's not intended for standard play, that's intended for a superhero style game with more difficult or frequent combat. I thought your suggestion was intended for regular D&D. Of course if you want epic hero spellcasters then 5 minute short rests are fine, but they need to get the default game right first before any variants.
Right, but what is standard play? We just had a conversation about it.
Standard Play isn't standard. And when the complaint is that short rests take too long there is too much going on to take an hour, and villains are constantly moving, so on and so forth. Epic Heroism becomes appropriate for that game.
When the conversation is "we only have one or 2 fights a day and the rest is all other types of encounters" the gritty realism rules become appropriate for that game.
If you aren't playing a standard game, the standard rest rules don't apply.
If you are playing a standard game, then this warlocks works just fine with 1 maybe 2 short rest and in a standard game, getting 1 or 2 short rests with an hour rest isn't a problem. If it is a problem, you aren't playing a "standard" game and need to adjust it for your game to make 1 or 2 short rests a day work.
"Standard play" is presumably what all the complaints they've been getting about Warlock rests and resources have been about. Even if there's a variant in the DMG that would magically address all the complaints people have been getting (and not create a brand new set of complaints - good luck), the fact that they either don't know it exists or don't see it as a solution is still a problem. The class should be designed for the way most people play the game, not the other way around.
So to address all the concerns in the thread but also get back to question in hand; is a Warlock balanced if we assume 2 short rests per day?
That's 6 spells at maximum level per long rest until level 11, and 9 spells at max level from 11+. This sounds like a ton, so I figure you'd also need to balance it with a minute long ritual action that allows you to refresh your spell slots. So really you get 2 spells per encounter until level 11, when you'd get 3.
Regardless, this still seems pretty out of balance to me. A full caster getting 6 or 10 of their max level spells per long rest is bananas, but that's what we have if we take the general assumption of 2 SR per day.
So let's pretend WotC never went back to the Short Rest refresh, what are an acceptable number of spell per encounter / per day? I think a major change would need to be modifying Pact Slots so they don't auto-cast at max level, getting a constant refresh of your most powerful available everything combat is done is way out of synch.
On the other hand, many people (including me, lol) want the Warlock to maintain that full caster spell slot access to feel like their spells are worth casting. Id say getting to cast 3rd-5th level spells over the course of a given campaign (since even most long term campaigns tend to end between 10th and 14th level) is also an essential part of the Warlock package.
I think the natural compromise here could be done 2 ways. Either include Pact Magic slots with 1/2 caster progression and a very limited ability to refresh x times per long rest, or replace Pact Magic spell slots with a custom mana point system that falls somewhere between half and full casters. I'd leave it to the people better at math to actually Calc, but it seems feasible and would keep Warlocks unique spellcasting without relying on such a variable rule as short rests.
Anyway that's all tertiary to the original question here; how many Pact Magic spells (spells at full caster level) should a Warlock get per encounter, and per long rest?
If you're talking specifically about the "Epic Heroism" variant here:
Epic Heroism
This variant uses a short rest of 5 minutes and a long rest of 1 hour. This change makes combat more routine, since characters can easily recover from every battle. You might want to make combat encounters more difficult to compensate.
Spellcasters using this system can afford to burn through spell slots quickly, especially at higher levels. Consider allowing spellcasters to restore expended spell slots equal to only half their maximum spell slots (rounded down) at the end of a long rest, and to limit spell slots restored to 5th level or lower. Only a full 8-hour rest will allow a spellcaster to restore all spell slots and to regain spell slots of 6th level or higher.
then that's not intended for standard play, that's intended for a superhero style game with more difficult or frequent combat. I thought your suggestion was intended for regular D&D. Of course if you want epic hero spellcasters then 5 minute short rests are fine, but they need to get the default game right first before any variants.
Right, but what is standard play? We just had a conversation about it.
Standard Play isn't standard. And when the complaint is that short rests take too long there is too much going on to take an hour, and villains are constantly moving, so on and so forth. Epic Heroism becomes appropriate for that game.
When the conversation is "we only have one or 2 fights a day and the rest is all other types of encounters" the gritty realism rules become appropriate for that game.
If you aren't playing a standard game, the standard rest rules don't apply.
If you are playing a standard game, then this warlocks works just fine with 1 maybe 2 short rest and in a standard game, getting 1 or 2 short rests with an hour rest isn't a problem. If it is a problem, you aren't playing a "standard" game and need to adjust it for your game to make 1 or 2 short rests a day work.
"Standard play" is presumably what all the complaints they've been getting about Warlock rests and resources have been about. Even if there's a variant in the DMG that would magically address all the complaints people have been getting (and not create a brand new set of complaints - good luck), the fact that they either don't know it exists or don't see it as a solution is still a problem. The class should be designed for the way most people play the game, not the other way around.
Well, from my understanding most people play with at least 1 short rest per day. And, as stated, this warlock is mathematically fine with 1 short rest per day. Asking for a class to work with 2 is just pushing it and doesn't match, but 1 be fine.
Anyway that's all tertiary to the original question here; how many Pact Magic spells (spells at full caster level) should a Warlock get per encounter, and per long rest?
If the warlock only gets pact magic spells then 2 per Deadly encounter, 1 is too little b/c if you throw up a concentration spell in round 1 your concentration is likely to be broken, or 1 per Hard encounter, none for an Easy encounter.
If the warlock gets lower level spells as well, then just 1 nova per encounter just like the fighter gets one Action Surge.
I mean in an ideal world we would want casters and martials to be balanced right? So spellslots should in general match martial abilities, so if we take Fighter as a template: 1 nova option (Action Surge) + 2-4 minor buffs (Second Wind) + Invocations (extra feats) + 1 limitless damage option (blade or EB).
Anyway that's all tertiary to the original question here; how many Pact Magic spells (spells at full caster level) should a Warlock get per encounter, and per long rest?
If the warlock only gets pact magic spells then 2 per Deadly encounter, 1 is too little b/c if you throw up a concentration spell in round 1 your concentration is likely to be broken, or 1 per Hard encounter, none for an Easy encounter.
If the warlock gets lower level spells as well, then just 1 nova per encounter just like the fighter gets one Action Surge.
I mean in an ideal world we would want casters and martials to be balanced right? So spellslots should in general match martial abilities, so if we take Fighter as a template: 1 nova option (Action Surge) + 2-4 minor buffs (Second Wind) + Invocations (extra feats) + 1 limitless damage option (blade or EB).
I can get on board with some of that.
I dunno about balancing the spell slots per deadly/hard/easy encounter, if only because that sort of narrow divide might diminish the narrative feel of play. On the other hand, I would definitely provide my players with the chance to long rest before a climactic CR =>2 their level, so maybe my concern is unfounded.
I'm not sure I'd agree that a Pact slot is a nova ability in the same way Action Surge is, but your points taken and I should give it some thought. Thanks!
The thing is the world building is mostly fluff. Random tables for gods, talk of creating factions with random tables for it, etc. It's too hands off to help you develop a story and too hands on in that it wants you to use its story.. if that makes sense. It's also the thing I find DM's struggle with the least, either ripping right from other media or having a long time story they already want to tell. .
they have to be careful not to step on 3rd party toes, no matter what some people say. honestly, i feel like rather than either avoiding toe-steps or bringing all of dm's guild into DBB, there's a middle ground to be found in just asking the most popular 3rd party authors to come join an official worldbuilding anthology. we get a go-to big book, 'small' name authors get big recognition, and WotC gets to look like they care while actually only sharing their storefront with one book.
...and stick neil gaiman in it, too. he loves anthologies. also, i'd buy that.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
So the moment you take a single level of Warlock your short rests are forever altered?
And what about concentration spells that last even longer than an hour, like Hex? Are you unable to maintain concentration on those while taking a breather?
I haven't a clue about the guild...
3rd party is a double edged sword.
No, you don't. The system is more antagonistic to never taking a single short rest than it is to the length of the short rests. Not every set rule or optional rule works for every table. If your table doesn't work with the 5 minute short rest because of rest abuse, don't do the 5 minute rest. If your table doesn't work with the 1 hour short rest because it kills the pace of the game and doesn't work and thus you NEVER take a short rest don't make the short rest an hour. The question is "how many combats are you having in a day?, How are you spending hit dice to continue your adventure?" If the answer is, only 1 or 2 combats... make what you usually have as long rest into short rest and have "down time" be long rests.
Adjust it for YOUR table, your adjustment isn't going to work for me, and my adjustment isn't going to work for you, but short rests ARE modular, it DOESNT have to be an hour.
Put Neil Gaiman's name on the front of a D&D book and I've already got 20 collector's editions.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Taking advantage of a poorly-conceived houserule isn't abuse though. If I know I can repeatedly get back my spell slots in 5 minutes but there are several buffs, batteries and other uses for them in the system that last much longer than that, that's just intuitive/optimal play. If on the other hand getting them back takes an hour, the opportunities for that are sharply reduced.
It isn't a house rule. It is in the DMG, Page 267, and includes suggestions for how to adjust your game in addition to the rests. or those that don't know the 5 minute/1hour recovery suggests that 1 hour only recovers HALF a casters spell slots and only recovers those of 5th level or lower and half a persons health for a full recovery take a full 8. Apply the same logic to 5 minute short rests for warlocks they get half, 1 hour they get their long rest abilities and all their slots back while full casters get half their slots back and their long rest abilities that are of 11th level or lower, and everyone recovers half their health and hit dice back, with a full 8 giving everything back,
Tables are already adjusting a bunch of other things.
And again this warlock works with 1 short rest. Are you telling me your group NEVER takes a short rest? If they aren't then you NEED to adjust the short rests.
Edit: the adjustment from table to table, should match the play FOR THE TABLE. If the people are abusing it than that doesn't work for the table, the hour long was working just fine at that point and people are whining for the purpose of whining.
Edit 2: and again, this warlock doesn't "rely" on short rests any more than any other class. Every class relies on at least one short rest to spend hit dice and recover health. This warlock is effective with just 1 short rest. And is effective with 0 rests at 1,2,3,and 5 and possibly 11 on.... 5 5th level spells + 1 6th with 7 invocations.... I would have to run some numbers on that one.
If you're talking specifically about the "Epic Heroism" variant here:
then that's not intended for standard play, that's intended for a superhero style game with more difficult or frequent combat. I thought your suggestion was intended for regular D&D. Of course if you want epic hero spellcasters then 5 minute short rests are fine, but they need to get the default game right first before any variants.
Right, but what is standard play? We just had a conversation about it.
Standard Play isn't standard. And when the complaint is that short rests take too long there is too much going on to take an hour, and villains are constantly moving, so on and so forth. Epic Heroism becomes appropriate for that game.
When the conversation is "we only have one or 2 fights a day and the rest is all other types of encounters" the gritty realism rules become appropriate for that game.
If you aren't playing a standard game, the standard rest rules don't apply.
If you are playing a standard game, then this warlocks works just fine with 1 maybe 2 short rest and in a standard game, getting 1 or 2 short rests with an hour rest isn't a problem. If it is a problem, you aren't playing a "standard" game and need to adjust it for your game to make 1 or 2 short rests a day work.
This sums it up. WotC builds rules assuming certain parameters as the 'standard' for an in game adventure day. As soon as you tweak anything about the rules or you run storylines that don't fit within those assumptions you need to recognize that you may need to tweak additional aspects of play to accommodate your initial deviations. Maybe that knock on effect means you need to adjust rest times, maybe it's the elimination of certain spells, maybe it's a tweak to how some skills work, or a homebrew that lets a class recharge in novel ways, or an extra goblin here and there in an encounter. It all happens to accommodate your first deviation from the standard whether that deviation is as large as zero rests mid day/only one encounter a day/free feats every ASI level, or as small as drinking a potion is a bonus action. Whatever it is it all flows from that first deviation, and that's OK. Tweaking rules to make them work for your specific desires is at the core of TTRPGs.
I don't love getting involved in these forum wars, but I wanted to point out that this is false. I have shifted my view on the great warlock war of 23, and generally agree with your points about the improvements that warlock needs and deserves(and has not gotten.) BUT, I think you weaken your position and your credibility by making arguments based partially on overgeneralizations or hyperbole. I understand that short rests are not generally balanced. That does not mean that nobody ever gets their two short rests a day. That does not even mean that only 1% of players do. Speaking from anecdotal and personal experience, I know of and play in plenty of games that get around 2 short rests a day. Claiming that nobody ever does x or warlock is never ever balanced or x is always some horrible thing (etc) makes you seem like a rambling fool and I kind of wish you would stop writing in such a manner. I think you have interesting and valuable things to say, but they get undermined by what seems to be a mixture of barely contained rage and excessive anecdotal hyperbole. That is all, I hope everyone reading this has a great day/evening and remembers that the people they are arguing with are most likely not bad people.
Back to lurking for me.
N/A
Expanding on the short rest thing real quick. A big thing that I do not like about the optional rest rules are their names. There is a stigma that the "Gritty realism" Rest rules are meant to be used for super gritty and edgy games with hyper realism for everything. It isn't the rule itself explains that its intended use is in games with more intrigue and exploration where combat is few and far between and is encouraged to be avoided. This doesn't mean it has to be hyper realistic or super gritty if you prefer games where the players do a lot of exploration and social encounters and only do 1 big fight a day.
The Heroic Heroism is also just a poorly named rule. It is not just for super hero games where everyone is super powerful. The other problem is it is largely an incomplete rule. It acknowledges there are issues that it causes and make SOME suggestions on how to address them, but in my opinion not enough. So here I am simply going to make my full suggestions for all the rules for this one AND say what I think the types of games it should be used in.
First: It acknowledges casters are an issue and that they should only recover half their spells of 5th level or lower on a 1 hour long and should need a full 8 for all their spells back. I believe this should also apply to health and hit dice. I also will remind that the rules state that you can only benefit from one long rest per 24 hour period, I believe that applies to this as well. I also believe the half recovery should also apply to long rest features with charges, like the new misty step from warlock or the psi fighters psionic energy dice. And the "not recovered" should also apply to one time use per long rest abilities from class levels of 11 or higher.
Second: Since it acknowledges the fact that full spell recovery is an issue in the long rest portion, we should acknowledge it as well in short, Warlocks should only get half their slots back in a 5 minute short, same with monks and ki and other abilities with multiple charges like the fighter.
Third as some have pointed out there is potential for abuse with 5 minute shorts, so by limiting it to once per 1 hour period or until after the party rolls initiative again you can cut out a lot of potential spell duration abuse.
Now where should it be used, it should be used in super hero games for one where characters want to feel super powerful in a day, but it can also be used in high pace games where the clock is constantly ticking and every second counts, it can be combined with the healer kit dependency and slow natural healing rules to add greater tension and more 'realism' back into the game.
Ultimately these rest rules are under utilized in areas they should be the Epic Heroism one is incomplete and both of them are misnomers about what they are for. Their real names should be fast paced action, and intrigue/exploration rest rules.
"Standard play" is presumably what all the complaints they've been getting about Warlock rests and resources have been about. Even if there's a variant in the DMG that would magically address all the complaints people have been getting (and not create a brand new set of complaints - good luck), the fact that they either don't know it exists or don't see it as a solution is still a problem. The class should be designed for the way most people play the game, not the other way around.
So to address all the concerns in the thread but also get back to question in hand; is a Warlock balanced if we assume 2 short rests per day?
That's 6 spells at maximum level per long rest until level 11, and 9 spells at max level from 11+. This sounds like a ton, so I figure you'd also need to balance it with a minute long ritual action that allows you to refresh your spell slots. So really you get 2 spells per encounter until level 11, when you'd get 3.
Regardless, this still seems pretty out of balance to me. A full caster getting 6 or 10 of their max level spells per long rest is bananas, but that's what we have if we take the general assumption of 2 SR per day.
So let's pretend WotC never went back to the Short Rest refresh, what are an acceptable number of spell per encounter / per day? I think a major change would need to be modifying Pact Slots so they don't auto-cast at max level, getting a constant refresh of your most powerful available everything combat is done is way out of synch.
On the other hand, many people (including me, lol) want the Warlock to maintain that full caster spell slot access to feel like their spells are worth casting. Id say getting to cast 3rd-5th level spells over the course of a given campaign (since even most long term campaigns tend to end between 10th and 14th level) is also an essential part of the Warlock package.
I think the natural compromise here could be done 2 ways. Either include Pact Magic slots with 1/2 caster progression and a very limited ability to refresh x times per long rest, or replace Pact Magic spell slots with a custom mana point system that falls somewhere between half and full casters. I'd leave it to the people better at math to actually Calc, but it seems feasible and would keep Warlocks unique spellcasting without relying on such a variable rule as short rests.
Anyway that's all tertiary to the original question here; how many Pact Magic spells (spells at full caster level) should a Warlock get per encounter, and per long rest?
Well, from my understanding most people play with at least 1 short rest per day. And, as stated, this warlock is mathematically fine with 1 short rest per day. Asking for a class to work with 2 is just pushing it and doesn't match, but 1 be fine.
If the warlock only gets pact magic spells then 2 per Deadly encounter, 1 is too little b/c if you throw up a concentration spell in round 1 your concentration is likely to be broken, or 1 per Hard encounter, none for an Easy encounter.
If the warlock gets lower level spells as well, then just 1 nova per encounter just like the fighter gets one Action Surge.
I mean in an ideal world we would want casters and martials to be balanced right? So spellslots should in general match martial abilities, so if we take Fighter as a template:
1 nova option (Action Surge) + 2-4 minor buffs (Second Wind) + Invocations (extra feats) + 1 limitless damage option (blade or EB).
I can get on board with some of that.
I dunno about balancing the spell slots per deadly/hard/easy encounter, if only because that sort of narrow divide might diminish the narrative feel of play. On the other hand, I would definitely provide my players with the chance to long rest before a climactic CR =>2 their level, so maybe my concern is unfounded.
I'm not sure I'd agree that a Pact slot is a nova ability in the same way Action Surge is, but your points taken and I should give it some thought. Thanks!