Well, at this point I'd guess early December; launching it around Thanksgiving/Black Friday just seems like a good way to have lots of people be too busy to notice for a bit, so might as well just wait.
After a couple days of thought the Arcane Archer should probably a Wizard subclass.
Why not a bard subclass? Bards have two martial subclasses, but Swords is pure melee and Valor can go either way. A dedicated ranged martial subclass would round them out, and I think it'd suit the bard fantasy really well. Just take some of the flavor of the daring, swashbuckling Swords Bard who entertains with flourishes and feats of skill and replace it with trick shot archery with lots of acrobatic maneuvers and flashy magic arrows.
They could have something like the Sword Bard flourishes or Battlemaster Maneuvers but made into Trick Shots that let them loose an arrow while using other actions like Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Use Object, etc. They could also be given something like an innate Climb Speed to simulate combining their archery and acrobatics into some parkour-like abilities.
Then add Arcane Shots like what you suggested so they can mix their magic and mundane combat prowess together.
My reason for Wizard subclass was mostly just because the 3.5 prestige class history. Technically I think you could have done it with a bard back then, but that wasn’t a common build from my understanding. Yes, Arcane Archer could work as a Bard subclass just as well. I wouldn’t want the shots to work off bardic inspiration like flourishes. The shots should be fueled off spell slots, but as a Bard my version of Arcane shot would suck since they don’t have many attack roll spells or cantrips. Well it wouldn’t make the PHB 2024 as a Bard at this point either. There just isn’t enough time to playtest.
Regarding the Arcane Archer/Bard thing, they already made a bow that interacts with CHA and Performance in BoMT, so they might figure that's enough support for the concept. Plus they might not want to be accused of ripping off FFXIV, which already explictly transitions their Archer class into Bards. The fact that Rangers already have several spells for straight "upgrade my next bow attack" effects doesn't help the concept either; assuming you don't want to just play a Ranger, you might as well just play a Lore Bard and use your extra Magic Secrets to grab some combination of Conjure Barrage, Lightning Arrow, and Hail of Thorns at level 6. You're not making as many attacks, but you can spam the spells themselves a lot better than a Ranger.
After a couple days of thought the Arcane Archer should probably a Wizard subclass.
Why not a bard subclass? Bards have two martial subclasses, but Swords is pure melee and Valor can go either way. A dedicated ranged martial subclass would round them out, and I think it'd suit the bard fantasy really well. Just take some of the flavor of the daring, swashbuckling Swords Bard who entertains with flourishes and feats of skill and replace it with trick shot archery with lots of acrobatic maneuvers and flashy magic arrows.
They could have something like the Sword Bard flourishes or Battlemaster Maneuvers but made into Trick Shots that let them loose an arrow while using other actions like Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Use Object, etc. They could also be given something like an innate Climb Speed to simulate combining their archery and acrobatics into some parkour-like abilities.
Then add Arcane Shots like what you suggested so they can mix their magic and mundane combat prowess together.
My reason for Wizard subclass was mostly just because the 3.5 prestige class history. Technically I think you could have done it with a bard back then, but that wasn’t a common build from my understanding. Yes, Arcane Archer could work as a Bard subclass just as well. I wouldn’t want the shots to work off bardic inspiration like flourishes. The shots should be fueled off spell slots, but as a Bard my version of Arcane shot would suck since they don’t have many attack roll spells or cantrips. Well it wouldn’t make the PHB 2024 as a Bard at this point either. There just isn’t enough time to playtest.
If they were going to take AA archer away from fighter then I agree, wizard makes sense to me. And using spell slots to fuel their shots is a nice way to keep them balanced instead of being both good at both. I mean, Bladesinger is pretty good but it seems at higher levels they are better off shifting away from melee and being a wizard. I haven’t played one but seems you might be better off using high level spells for, well, spells instead of upcasting Shadowblade or something else. Would your AA be able to keep up the archery at high levels?
But this old have to wait until 6E. I don’t see them making AA a wizard subclass. Unless they just never do anything with AA in 5eR and make it a wizard subclass with a different name.
I've played a bladesinger up to lvl 17, and you basically melee to clear out the trash. The same thing you would do with cantrips with a normal wizard. At medium levels, yes, you are very, very powerful in melee.
However, 5e is not designed for playing at very high levels. Beyond lvl 14-15 many subclasses are poorly designed. Either they're broken, or they're shit, or they stop working like they're supposed to. And in fact the official adventures reach those levels at most. And it is because the designers know that beyond that the system is held on with pins.
Would your AA be able to keep up the archery at high levels?
I’m not sure my AA is ever really keeping up with the archery. If you look at what I did it is mostly a spellcaster with an archery reskin. I even made sure for the most part it uses Magic actions. And even the portion of it that is weapon attacks are part of the Magic action. I would need to spend time with the language to even make it work in 5e. Considering how I wrote it there could be a lot of confusion. Is Arcane Shot a spell attack roll using Dex or a weapon attack roll? Honestly as the person who wrote it my intent was the former, but honestly reading it the later makes it feel more like it fits the concept of an Archer. While spell attack roll using Dex seems easier to balance, weapon attack roll actually interacts with feats, abilities, and weapons the way players would expect from a subclass called “Archer.” My version while achieving the ecstatic, theme, and game play style of something that would feel like an Arcane Archer it most likely falls short of the mechanical crunch to appease a lot of players. I a a DM who likes to play with design, not a professional designer.
I proposed that over in the "Artificer Poll" thread. I think that makes the most sense. The Arcane Archer is channeling their magic through their tools (in this case, a tool of war: a ranged weapon), just like an Armorer channels their magic through a tool of war (their armor).
Fancy special effect arrows like Hawkeye? Casting spells via their ranged weapon and ammo. (don't word the subclass as bow/arrow specific, let them pick any ranged or thrown weapon -- maybe one or two weapon picks at 3rd level, and one more at each subclass level)
Their weapon/ammo magical bonus for hit/damage also acts like an arcane focus that grants that bonus to spell attack rolls, spell damage, and spell save DC.
Trick shots? Arcane Shots and some spells. (but make Arcane Shots not available until their two upper subclass levels: 9th level and 15th level if they keep the same tiers as 5e's Artificer)
Smite-like magically potent shots? True Strike (1D&D) already works via any weapon. Add letting them use spells like Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade via their ranged weapon (as a subclass specific exception to the spell).
Bonus action ranged weapon attack.
Extra Attack with the cantrip option.
For their subclass spell list, give them spells like ensnaring strike, hail of thorns, cordon of arrows, conjure barrage, lightning arrow, and conjure volley.
They're not going to make a full caster who's also a particularly strong martial character.
You mean like the bladesinger?
Bladesinger isn't a particularly strong martial. They can survive in melee, but if they get hit they go down quickly, and frankly, past the first few levels if they are mixing it up with their sword, they are not being as effective as they could be.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
They're not going to make a full caster who's also a particularly strong martial character.
You mean like the bladesinger?
Bladesinger isn't a particularly strong martial. They can survive in melee, but if they get hit they go down quickly, and frankly, past the first few levels if they are mixing it up with their sword, they are not being as effective as they could be.
what exactly are you comparing it to? bladesinger can damage seems pretty over the top. high end damage, one dnd, 3 attacks baseline,
AT lvl 17
(4d8+5dex+5int)attack*2+, (d8+3d8+5+5)booming blade off hand free attack cantrip, BA action free (after song is up) for animate objects or blade of disaster.
I'm not sure where you're getting the (4d8+DEX mod+INT mod)*2. They only ever get the one extra attack, so they can make two attacks per round with the Attack Action and weapons don't scale like cantrips. So at best you've got 1d8+DEX mod+INT mod on top of a cantrip (Green Flame Blade is probably better than Booming Blade in most instances, as hitting a second target will be more consistent), and whatever you spend your Bonus Action on. But, regardless, that's still not going to have the same kick as just blasting with something like Fireball, Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Prismatic Ray, etc. on top of that same Bonus Action.
My definition of 'strong martial' is 'taking the attack action in a significant combat isn't a mistake'. Bladesinger is a bit overpowered, but that's because it gets extreme AC, not because it's actually good at attacking with weapons.
My definition of 'strong martial' is 'taking the attack action in a significant combat isn't a mistake'. Bladesinger is a bit overpowered, but that's because it gets extreme AC, not because it's actually good at attacking with weapons.
^^ this. It's still a wizard, but it's got excellent defenses. A wizard poking something with a rapier, even twice around is just not using his character to it's fullest extent. A wizard nearly always has something better to do at higher levels. At low levels, when spell slots are at a premium and cantrips are pretty meh, bladesinger is quite nice in melee.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
My definition of 'strong martial' is 'taking the attack action in a significant combat isn't a mistake'. Bladesinger is a bit overpowered, but that's because it gets extreme AC, not because it's actually good at attacking with weapons.
the play I outlined, is taking the attack action. shadow blade uses attacks,, booming blade replacing a single attack, is only good because they are attacking.. They get +int to damage only while attacking. Unless you are saying the should cast spells, but by that definition, paladin is a subpar martial. Ek is a subpar martial.
Onednd nick basically gives them 4d8+10 per hit with 3 hits by taking the attack action. That part alone competes with other martials. Their biggest issue is a crowded BA action queue. The only thing that holds them back, in onednd play, is no access to masteries, and thus weaker access to advantage. A single level of fighter solves this though. but even without that, they are out performing martials by taking the attack action.
My definition of 'strong martial' is 'taking the attack action in a significant combat isn't a mistake'. Bladesinger is a bit overpowered, but that's because it gets extreme AC, not because it's actually good at attacking with weapons.
It is far from a mistake for a bladesinger to take an attack action. They either get two attacks from that choice OR an attack and a cantrip (like the new True Strike, which means two attacks and a bunch of extra damage).
Seems like they meet your definition.
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They're not going to make a full caster who's also a particularly strong martial character. Why not an artificer?
Cleric be like: 😬😳👀
I can think of no cleric subclass that is good at using weapons.
Yeah, as much as some of the subclasses get profs, Divine Strike, and even some Smite spells, their performance in melee is still pretty limited.
Still no hints on when we get the next playtest?
Well, at this point I'd guess early December; launching it around Thanksgiving/Black Friday just seems like a good way to have lots of people be too busy to notice for a bit, so might as well just wait.
My reason for Wizard subclass was mostly just because the 3.5 prestige class history. Technically I think you could have done it with a bard back then, but that wasn’t a common build from my understanding. Yes, Arcane Archer could work as a Bard subclass just as well. I wouldn’t want the shots to work off bardic inspiration like flourishes. The shots should be fueled off spell slots, but as a Bard my version of Arcane shot would suck since they don’t have many attack roll spells or cantrips. Well it wouldn’t make the PHB 2024 as a Bard at this point either. There just isn’t enough time to playtest.
Regarding the Arcane Archer/Bard thing, they already made a bow that interacts with CHA and Performance in BoMT, so they might figure that's enough support for the concept. Plus they might not want to be accused of ripping off FFXIV, which already explictly transitions their Archer class into Bards. The fact that Rangers already have several spells for straight "upgrade my next bow attack" effects doesn't help the concept either; assuming you don't want to just play a Ranger, you might as well just play a Lore Bard and use your extra Magic Secrets to grab some combination of Conjure Barrage, Lightning Arrow, and Hail of Thorns at level 6. You're not making as many attacks, but you can spam the spells themselves a lot better than a Ranger.
If they were going to take AA archer away from fighter then I agree, wizard makes sense to me. And using spell slots to fuel their shots is a nice way to keep them balanced instead of being both good at both. I mean, Bladesinger is pretty good but it seems at higher levels they are better off shifting away from melee and being a wizard. I haven’t played one but seems you might be better off using high level spells for, well, spells instead of upcasting Shadowblade or something else. Would your AA be able to keep up the archery at high levels?
But this old have to wait until 6E. I don’t see them making AA a wizard subclass. Unless they just never do anything with AA in 5eR and make it a wizard subclass with a different name.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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I've played a bladesinger up to lvl 17, and you basically melee to clear out the trash. The same thing you would do with cantrips with a normal wizard. At medium levels, yes, you are very, very powerful in melee.
However, 5e is not designed for playing at very high levels. Beyond lvl 14-15 many subclasses are poorly designed. Either they're broken, or they're shit, or they stop working like they're supposed to. And in fact the official adventures reach those levels at most. And it is because the designers know that beyond that the system is held on with pins.
I’m not sure my AA is ever really keeping up with the archery. If you look at what I did it is mostly a spellcaster with an archery reskin. I even made sure for the most part it uses Magic actions. And even the portion of it that is weapon attacks are part of the Magic action. I would need to spend time with the language to even make it work in 5e. Considering how I wrote it there could be a lot of confusion. Is Arcane Shot a spell attack roll using Dex or a weapon attack roll? Honestly as the person who wrote it my intent was the former, but honestly reading it the later makes it feel more like it fits the concept of an Archer. While spell attack roll using Dex seems easier to balance, weapon attack roll actually interacts with feats, abilities, and weapons the way players would expect from a subclass called “Archer.” My version while achieving the ecstatic, theme, and game play style of something that would feel like an Arcane Archer it most likely falls short of the mechanical crunch to appease a lot of players. I a a DM who likes to play with design, not a professional designer.
You mean like the bladesinger?
I proposed that over in the "Artificer Poll" thread. I think that makes the most sense. The Arcane Archer is channeling their magic through their tools (in this case, a tool of war: a ranged weapon), just like an Armorer channels their magic through a tool of war (their armor).
Bladesinger isn't a particularly strong martial. They can survive in melee, but if they get hit they go down quickly, and frankly, past the first few levels if they are mixing it up with their sword, they are not being as effective as they could be.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
what exactly are you comparing it to? bladesinger can damage seems pretty over the top. high end damage, one dnd, 3 attacks baseline,
AT lvl 17
(4d8+5dex+5int)attack*2+, (d8+3d8+5+5)booming blade off hand free attack cantrip, BA action free (after song is up) for animate objects or blade of disaster.
Worcester and sentinel
if enemy moves +4d8
if enemy attacks anyone else 4d8+3d8+10 damage
which martial is this a poor comparison to?
I'm not sure where you're getting the (4d8+DEX mod+INT mod)*2. They only ever get the one extra attack, so they can make two attacks per round with the Attack Action and weapons don't scale like cantrips. So at best you've got 1d8+DEX mod+INT mod on top of a cantrip (Green Flame Blade is probably better than Booming Blade in most instances, as hitting a second target will be more consistent), and whatever you spend your Bonus Action on. But, regardless, that's still not going to have the same kick as just blasting with something like Fireball, Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Prismatic Ray, etc. on top of that same Bonus Action.
My definition of 'strong martial' is 'taking the attack action in a significant combat isn't a mistake'. Bladesinger is a bit overpowered, but that's because it gets extreme AC, not because it's actually good at attacking with weapons.
^^ this. It's still a wizard, but it's got excellent defenses. A wizard poking something with a rapier, even twice around is just not using his character to it's fullest extent. A wizard nearly always has something better to do at higher levels. At low levels, when spell slots are at a premium and cantrips are pretty meh, bladesinger is quite nice in melee.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
the play I outlined, is taking the attack action. shadow blade uses attacks,, booming blade replacing a single attack, is only good because they are attacking.. They get +int to damage only while attacking. Unless you are saying the should cast spells, but by that definition, paladin is a subpar martial. Ek is a subpar martial.
Onednd nick basically gives them 4d8+10 per hit with 3 hits by taking the attack action. That part alone competes with other martials. Their biggest issue is a crowded BA action queue. The only thing that holds them back, in onednd play, is no access to masteries, and thus weaker access to advantage. A single level of fighter solves this though. but even without that, they are out performing martials by taking the attack action.
It is far from a mistake for a bladesinger to take an attack action. They either get two attacks from that choice OR an attack and a cantrip (like the new True Strike, which means two attacks and a bunch of extra damage).
Seems like they meet your definition.