Invocations that give you a certain spell, and getting some slots to cast low level spells are NOT the same. And most of those invocations imo, are not worth using.
They may not be the same thing, but utility casting isn't warlock's issue it has plenty. The problem is if you DO make a warlock mimic a full caster, but STILL don't make anything that another caster can't just get from a 1 level dip you still have done nothing to encourage playing a warlock over another caster.
I think this is a simple misunderstanding of what "utility" means to people, Aquilontune you seem to be using the normal definition of stuff to solve problems outside of combat, whereas I suspect crzyhawk actually means casting Shield & Misty Step.
100% this. Most of the out of combat stuff, I find I rarely have a need for, and when I do, there's usually a skill check I can try to get that. Blowing a 3rd or 4th level slot on a misty step on the other hand feels AWFUL. One of the invocations I recall gives you disguise self at will for example. I played a glasya tiefling which had that spell as a racial for 7 levels and I used it exactly one time, and I used it pretty much just because I had it. I'd by far rather solve those problems with a deception check, or a performance check and disguise kit.
That out of combat stuff, I am not wasting a precious invocation on only to never use. i want stuff that I am going to use on the regular if I am blowing an invocation or feat or such on it.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
So if the premise is "we need more effective mid to high level options for combat effectiveness beside EB+AB" then I don't disagree with that premise. I just think there are better and more thematic answers then spam shield, absorb elements and silvery barbs.
it looks like Silvery Barbs is getting cut. The last time I checked the spell list, I didn't see it. I'm ok with that. I hope shield gets changed as well. If I had my way it would either scale with prof bonus, or be broken into lesser and greater shield spells with say, +2 and +4 values. You don't get shield out of the box with Warlock though, and...I hate hexblade on general principle so, I doubt I will ever make one of those.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Invocations that give you a certain spell, and getting some slots to cast low level spells are NOT the same. And most of those invocations imo, are not worth using.
They may not be the same thing, but utility casting isn't warlock's issue it has plenty. The problem is if you DO make a warlock mimic a full caster, but STILL don't make anything that another caster can't just get from a 1 level dip you still have done nothing to encourage playing a warlock over another caster.
I think this is a simple misunderstanding of what "utility" means to people, Aquilontune you seem to be using the normal definition of stuff to solve problems outside of combat, whereas I suspect crzyhawk actually means casting Shield & Misty Step.
100% this. Most of the out of combat stuff, I find I rarely have a need for, and when I do, there's usually a skill check I can try to get that. Blowing a 3rd or 4th level slot on a misty step on the other hand feels AWFUL. One of the invocations I recall gives you disguise self at will for example. I played a glasya tiefling which had that spell as a racial for 7 levels and I used it exactly one time, and I used it pretty much just because I had it. I'd by far rather solve those problems with a deception check, or a performance check and disguise kit.
That out of combat stuff, I am not wasting a precious invocation on only to never use. i want stuff that I am going to use on the regular if I am blowing an invocation or feat or such on it.
Ok so you aren't looking for more utility casting you are looking for more combat options besides eldritch blast and a single concentration spell. Well if you want misty step specifically obviously archfey has that. If you want other options. that are specifically not level 1 (because magic initiate + tome can cover ANY of those spells) then ya we need some better HIGH level invocations in the 7+ range
This is why they need options to cast more spells. They admitted such, and even tried to implement it. So, invocations to get slots is the best remaining answer. But they can't be max level slots, because that would be blatantly overpowered. one pact slot per day that they pawn off as a solution is just insulting.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
This is why they need options to cast more spells. They admitted such, and even tried to implement it. So, invocations to get slots is the best remaining answer. But they can't be max level slots, because that would be blatantly overpowered. one pact slot per day that they pawn off as a solution is just insulting.
So what do you think of my solve for different higher level invocations.
An invocation for pact of the tome that gives you a second level spell slot at 5th level and a 3rd level slot at 7th level and allows you to prepare an additional ritual of 3rd level or lower.
Fix investment of the chain master to give warlock 2x warlock level additional health to the familiar, and allow the familiar to use your spell attack AND spell DC for its attacks and DC's and deal additional damage = to your charisma modifier making it a proper combat companion.
Bring back the once per long rest spell invocations, but have them be "doesn't use a spell slot' instead of using one of your pact slots.
I think if you want a BUNCH of low level slots for combat, just play a different caster. I still also think we need some more unique 7th level + invocations as well. Those not linked to a pact or just giving spells. More stuff like gaze of 2 minds and Devil sight that give unique abilities.
Rituals I haven't noticed to be terribly useful. Campaign dependent mostly, as many look to be high value spells. I cast find familiar and until it dies, rarely need it. Identify and detect magic /should/ be useful, but haven't been, particularly since they let arcana tell you most of the same details by using an hour of time. Adding a ritual's probably more useful than my campaign would give it credit for.
The spell slots, I feel are close, but I am not sure enough, but also better than I'd probably go for too. I tend to favor an invocation to give you two 1sts that requires level 4, one to give you 2 seconds at level 6 (all resetting on LONG rest rather than short rest). Your idea gives less slots/day, but also requires less invocation investment, and adds a ritual.
Investment of the chain master changes look solid. I rarely use Carneri (my familiar) to her full potential to keep from annoying the DM and making him swat her, and to not step on our rogues toes. I tend to reach for her when I feel we need help, so I don't have a solid feel for her combat performance now. I think I have attacked with her in combat once, because I had LoS issues and couldn't do it myself. I could be scouting and getting myself advantage, but I tend do not do that for the reasons I mentioned. I do use her to do things like fly a grappling hook some place and secure it...DM uses her for story exposition from time to time (she knows some things).
I never cared for the one/rest invocations. I can take them or leave them depending on the spells available. They could be like the mystic arcanum change from the original playtest which I liked.
Right now, to get my low level slots, I tend to look at MC as a requirement rather than a suggestion. A dip into another caster class patches that up, but I'd rather not MC if I didn't have to. With the half casters getting their spells at level 1 now, some additional MC options are going to open up. Oathbreaker paladin going warlock for example makes some sense, for example (if you want to pay the insane stat penalty, which for the right character I would)
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Pact of the Blade (and Thirsting Blade) do need to get toned down.
1) They shouldn't grant more than two attacks 2) They shouldn't grant weapon masteries 3) They shouldn't grant proficiency with every martial weapon under the sun including ranged and heavy weapons
Even if you removed all of those things from them, people would still readily take them on a variety of gish builds - which is a clear sign that they're overtuned.
Rituals I haven't noticed to be terribly useful. Campaign dependent mostly, as many look to be high value spells. I cast find familiar and until it dies, rarely need it. Identify and detect magic /should/ be useful, but haven't been, particularly since they let arcana tell you most of the same details by using an hour of time. Adding a ritual's probably more useful than my campaign would give it credit for.
The spell slots, I feel are close, but I am not sure enough, but also better than I'd probably go for too. I tend to favor an invocation to give you two 1sts that requires level 4, one to give you 2 seconds at level 6 (all resetting on LONG rest rather than short rest). Your idea gives less slots/day, but also requires less invocation investment, and adds a ritual.
Investment of the chain master changes look solid. I rarely use Carneri (my familiar) to her full potential to keep from annoying the DM and making him swat her, and to not step on our rogues toes. I tend to reach for her when I feel we need help, so I don't have a solid feel for her combat performance now. I think I have attacked with her in combat once, because I had LoS issues and couldn't do it myself. I could be scouting and getting myself advantage, but I tend do not do that for the reasons I mentioned. I do use her to do things like fly a grappling hook some place and secure it...DM uses her for story exposition from time to time (she knows some things).
I never cared for the one/rest invocations. I can take them or leave them depending on the spells available. They could be like the mystic arcanum change from the original playtest which I liked.
Right now, to get my low level slots, I tend to look at MC as a requirement rather than a suggestion. A dip into another caster class patches that up, but I'd rather not MC if I didn't have to. With the half casters getting their spells at level 1 now, some additional MC options are going to open up. Oathbreaker paladin going warlock for example makes some sense, for example (if you want to pay the insane stat penalty, which for the right character I would)
Note the once per long rest spells that DONT use a spell slot would be similar to the Playtest 5 warlock's mystic arcanums. Even if you didn't want it to be tied to a specific spell it could be "choose a spell from the wizard spell list of a level equal to or lower than the level of your pact magic slot you can cast that spell once per long rest without using a spell slot. You can take this invocation mutliple times each time you must pick a spell of a level different than one you already have.
I tend to favor an invocation to give you two 1sts that requires level 4, one to give you 2 seconds at level 6 (all resetting on LONG rest rather than short rest). Your idea gives less slots/day, but also requires less invocation investment, and adds a ritual.
I never cared for the one/rest invocations. I can take them or leave them depending on the spells available. They could be like the mystic arcanum change from the original playtest which I liked.
Right now, to get my low level slots, I tend to look at MC as a requirement rather than a suggestion. A dip into another caster class patches that up, but I'd rather not MC if I didn't have to. With the half casters getting their spells at level 1 now, some additional MC options are going to open up. Oathbreaker paladin going warlock for example makes some sense, for example (if you want to pay the insane stat penalty, which for the right character I would)
For balance reasons warlock will never get low level slots plus pact slots that follow full casting progression. There are three clear choices:
1) Warlock looses all their invocations and EB and has full caster progression of spell slots.
2) Warlock retains their invocations & EB and has half-caster progression of spell slots.
3) Warlock retains their invocations & EB and has pact magic slots.
Two invocations for 4 spell slots is incredibly cheap, and would make Warlock superior to both Sorcerer & Wizard in casting, customization, and sustained damage which very unbalanced. If you want low level slots on your warlock with Pact Magic you should have to MC and thus sacrifice the progression of your Pact Magic slots, thus making you more of a half-caster.
I completely disagree with you in pretty much all regards. But then again, I think pact magic sucks and should have been killed, leaving us as a half caster. I'm not in warlock for pact magic. I stay in spite of it.
EDIT: I should say I don't advocate for more full progression up through 5th level spells, nor do I advocate for following full caster progression. I do currently MC my warlocks and delay my pact progression because it's not as good as lower level utility spells, and mystic arcanum in general is not impressive to me. I'm there for neat customizations. I like the fact that people who love mask of many things for example, can pick that up even though I don't find it to have value.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I completely disagree with you in pretty much all regards. But then again, I think pact magic sucks and should have been killed, leaving us as a half caster. I'm not in warlock for pact magic. I stay in spite of it.
EDIT: I should say I don't advocate for more full progression up through 5th level spells, nor do I advocate for following full caster progression. I do currently MC my warlocks and delay my pact progression because it's not as good as lower level utility spells, and mystic arcanum in general is not impressive to me. I'm there for neat customizations. I like the fact that people who love mask of many things for example, can pick that up even though I don't find it to have value.
And by utility spells you mean combat spells right? Utility spells are out of combat casting.
Also nobody is in warlock for pact magic instead of full casting. Everyone is in it For EB and for Invocations. It is the invocations that need to be worth the LOSS of those slots not the invocations that need to PROVIDE those slots. Otherwise just play a different full caster.
in combat utility, yes. IE non control or damaging spells. There aren't many decent low level spells on the warlock list. The big offenders aren't there to worry about.
Stuff like shield, silvery barbs (I think that's not carrying forward anyways), absorb elements, color spray, fog cloud, and hideous laughter aren't on the spell list. A warlock has to make sacrifices to pick those up, and those are the ones that are going to make major differences at higher levels. Casting hex at first level? It's damage, but not much...and uses your conc. Who cares? A first level hellish rebuke? Again, who really cares? Cause Fear and Charm Person are the two biggest spells to worry about at higher levels, and I dont think that a couple of those per day is going to cause an issue.
yes, people are there for invocations. But they also want to cast more spells. That's the whole reason that they tried to change it to a half caster. JC has said that the primary complaint with warlocks is that they don't cast often enough. People want to have some options that aren't EB and AB. Those are nice go-to's but they want some other options as well. And I think that desire is not asking for something broken.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
in combat utility, yes. IE non control or damaging spells. There aren't many decent low level spells on the warlock list. The big offenders aren't there to worry about.
Stuff like shield, silvery barbs (I think that's not carrying forward anyways), absorb elements, color spray, fog cloud, and hideous laughter aren't on the spell list. A warlock has to make sacrifices to pick those up, and those are the ones that are going to make major differences at higher levels. Casting hex at first level? It's damage, but not much...and uses your conc. Who cares? A first level hellish rebuke? Again, who really cares? Cause Fear and Charm Person are the two biggest spells to worry about at higher levels, and I dont think that a couple of those per day is going to cause an issue.
yes, people are there for invocations. But they also want to cast more spells. That's the whole reason that they tried to change it to a half caster. JC has said that the primary complaint with warlocks is that they don't cast often enough. People want to have some options that aren't EB and AB. Those are nice go-to's but they want some other options as well. And I think that desire is not asking for something broken.
So specifically defensive or control spells. Because hideous laughter, color spray and fog cloud are all definitely control spells. Shield, silvery barbs and absorb elements are all defensive spells.
You can pick any first level spell up with magic initiate and Pact of the tome gives another first level slot that is 2 casting of any first level spell you want that is half the normal casting already you just have "less flexibility" unless you take magic initiate multiple times.
I do think adding more defensive and maybe some control combat stuff could be interesting through invocations, but I don't think they need more "Casting". Yes the prior tests said warlocks needed more casting. Between Magical cunning, ritual casting being universal, magic initiate, the buff to tome to allow a first level slot and the reduced level of several invocations while also providing MORE invocations the warlock can cast more spells then ever by a significant margin. So they listened to that feedback and achieved the goal.
Combat orientated utility invocations include Ascendent step to get out of melee range, Investment of the chain master TRIES to make your familiar into a combat companion but fails, Lessons of the first ones to grab any first level spell you want with magic initiative and you can take it multiple times, Misty visions for at will silent images for distractions and illusory walls that can fool people, One with shadows for invisibility in the right scenario which can let you avoid AOO and is a solid get out of jail defensive spell, Otherworldly leap with jump now being a bonus action and effectively increasing movement speed by 20 feet it is a solid movement option in combat, and eldritch mind to have advantage for all concentration.
So the invocations themselves provide some more "utility combat" casting. It just doesn't provide specifically shield spam. But again if you just want straight full caster low level casting warlock is pretty clearly saying just play full caster and not warlock. Warlock is for this pseudo martial and martials can't spam shield either.
I completely disagree with you in pretty much all regards. But then again, I think pact magic sucks and should have been killed, leaving us as a half caster. I'm not in warlock for pact magic. I stay in spite of it.
EDIT: I should say I don't advocate for more full progression up through 5th level spells, nor do I advocate for following full caster progression. I do currently MC my warlocks and delay my pact progression because it's not as good as lower level utility spells, and mystic arcanum in general is not impressive to me. I'm there for neat customizations. I like the fact that people who love mask of many things for example, can pick that up even though I don't find it to have value.
And by utility spells you mean combat spells right? Utility spells are out of combat casting.
Also nobody is in warlock for pact magic instead of full casting. Everyone is in it For EB and for Invocations. It is the invocations that need to be worth the LOSS of those slots not the invocations that need to PROVIDE those slots. Otherwise just play a different full caster.
Strong disagree there, during the warlock debates during the UA several people made it very clear that they were absolutely in warlock for the pact magic slots specifically for the SR recharge. It's why IMO the only "solution" to warlock is cutting it in half into two classes: an arcane half-caster and a SR-caster (While they are at it they can make one INT-based and one CHA-based).
Something like an INT-based "Witch" class that is an arcane half-caster with Tome, and Chain as your 1st level build options (like Druid & Cleric have 1st level combat vs casting build options now) - Tome granting AB on all cantrips and Chain granting BA familiar attacks, and talisman baked into the class at higher levels.
And a CHA-based "Witch Knight" class that is a SR caster with EB vs Blade Pact as their 1st level build options. This should probably absorb the "Arcane Shot" ideas from Arcane Archer but make them weapon-agnostic.
Also BTW what "neat customization" are you talking about? I personally find warlock no more customizable than any other class. Sure they have invocations but at least 1/2 of those aren't worth taking, and another 1/3 are clearly oriented around a specific type of build so are must-takes. You have your blade-lock and your EB-lock as your big two options which isn't that different from other classes, Rogues, Rangers and Fighters can be melee-focused or ranged-focused, Barbarians and Paladins can be offence-focused or defence-focused, Clerics can be ranged-support or melee-DPR, Wizard and Sorcerers are blasters or controllers. Bards and Druids can be support/healer focused or battlefield control focused. Your only really limited class is Monk.
getting a patron and a pact feels like two subclasses almost. invocations can make warlocks play and look very different even with the same pact boon or patron. A fighter's gonna look like a fighter. You never know what a warlock is going to look like.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
getting a patron and a pact feels like two subclasses almost. invocations can make warlocks play and look very different even with the same pact boon or patron. A fighter's gonna look like a fighter. You never know what a warlock is going to look like.
I disagree, every warlock looks like a warlock. They throw up a concentration spell (Hex, Blur, Hunger of Hadar, Spirit Shroud, Greater Invisibility, or Shadow of Moil) then spam weapon attacks and/or EB+AB, and save their other slot for a "get-out-of-jail" emergency for something like Counterspell, Thunderstep/Misty Step. They are generally squishy relying on magic to survive in melee (or to escape it), and have a little bit of out-of-combat utility from mainly from invocations.
Show me two 6th level Fiend Pact warlocks with the Pact of the Chain that play substantially differently. - backstory & RP don't count as any class can have any backstory / RP they want.
e.g. here's all the different RP / backstories I can come up with in half an hour for Fighter:
Conscript a peaceful farmer, you were forcibly taken from your home and trained to fight in the king's bloody war with a neighbouring nation. After 3 years of misery, you returned home to find your wife died of sickness and your children are missing. You reluctantly take up your sword again purely for self-defence, and set out to find them.
Born to Fight growing up on the mean streets of a big city, you were always smaller than the other boys, but that didn't mean you would ever back down from a fight. You learned to use your size and agility against the larger bullies, poking their eyes, tripping them, or dodging in for a quick blow when they over committed to a punch. Overtime, you earned a name for yourself and one of the knights of the local lord took you on as a squire, teaching you to fight with real weapons, until you were better than him. However, the local lord refused your application to join the knighthood due to your humble origins and now you set out to prove yourself the greatest swordsman in the world.
Secret Passion An apprentice to your father, the local blacksmith, you would often stay late at the shop to practice in secret with the weapons and armour when nobody was looking for your father had strictly forbidden you from doing anything combat-related. However, one day cleaning out the attic, you discover your father's old weapon & armour and get into a fierce argument. That night you steal the weapon & armour and sneak out of the house to live the life of adventure you've dreamed of.
Family Legacy Your father was a soldier, and his father before him, and his father before him. Now it is your turn, you join the military out of duty to your family and your nation. You quickly rose through the ranks to become a captain leading a small band of men, until your unit is sent to secure a strange ruin.. something emerges from the ruin and slaughters your men, you are the sole survivor and report back to your commanders but they refuse to believe your story and have you discharged without honours. Now you seek allies to unravel the mystery of the ruins, why your men sere sent there and to avenge the death of your men.
Bandit/Raider Forced to live on rough, infertile lands, on the outskirts of civilization, the only way your people could thrive was raiding passing traders and nearby villages. You were trained from a young age in the skills and tactics of ambush & hit-and-run raiding and spent your teenage years joining the raiding parties. However, when your clan is [falsely] accused of murdering the heir to a local noble, they are rounded up and imprisoned and are set for execution. You seek out unlikely allies to either clear their names or break them out.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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100% this. Most of the out of combat stuff, I find I rarely have a need for, and when I do, there's usually a skill check I can try to get that. Blowing a 3rd or 4th level slot on a misty step on the other hand feels AWFUL. One of the invocations I recall gives you disguise self at will for example. I played a glasya tiefling which had that spell as a racial for 7 levels and I used it exactly one time, and I used it pretty much just because I had it. I'd by far rather solve those problems with a deception check, or a performance check and disguise kit.
That out of combat stuff, I am not wasting a precious invocation on only to never use. i want stuff that I am going to use on the regular if I am blowing an invocation or feat or such on it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
it looks like Silvery Barbs is getting cut. The last time I checked the spell list, I didn't see it. I'm ok with that. I hope shield gets changed as well. If I had my way it would either scale with prof bonus, or be broken into lesser and greater shield spells with say, +2 and +4 values. You don't get shield out of the box with Warlock though, and...I hate hexblade on general principle so, I doubt I will ever make one of those.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Ok so you aren't looking for more utility casting you are looking for more combat options besides eldritch blast and a single concentration spell. Well if you want misty step specifically obviously archfey has that. If you want other options. that are specifically not level 1 (because magic initiate + tome can cover ANY of those spells) then ya we need some better HIGH level invocations in the 7+ range
This is why they need options to cast more spells. They admitted such, and even tried to implement it. So, invocations to get slots is the best remaining answer. But they can't be max level slots, because that would be blatantly overpowered. one pact slot per day that they pawn off as a solution is just insulting.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
So what do you think of my solve for different higher level invocations.
An invocation for pact of the tome that gives you a second level spell slot at 5th level and a 3rd level slot at 7th level and allows you to prepare an additional ritual of 3rd level or lower.
Fix investment of the chain master to give warlock 2x warlock level additional health to the familiar, and allow the familiar to use your spell attack AND spell DC for its attacks and DC's and deal additional damage = to your charisma modifier making it a proper combat companion.
Bring back the once per long rest spell invocations, but have them be "doesn't use a spell slot' instead of using one of your pact slots.
I think if you want a BUNCH of low level slots for combat, just play a different caster. I still also think we need some more unique 7th level + invocations as well. Those not linked to a pact or just giving spells. More stuff like gaze of 2 minds and Devil sight that give unique abilities.
Rituals I haven't noticed to be terribly useful. Campaign dependent mostly, as many look to be high value spells. I cast find familiar and until it dies, rarely need it. Identify and detect magic /should/ be useful, but haven't been, particularly since they let arcana tell you most of the same details by using an hour of time. Adding a ritual's probably more useful than my campaign would give it credit for.
The spell slots, I feel are close, but I am not sure enough, but also better than I'd probably go for too. I tend to favor an invocation to give you two 1sts that requires level 4, one to give you 2 seconds at level 6 (all resetting on LONG rest rather than short rest). Your idea gives less slots/day, but also requires less invocation investment, and adds a ritual.
Investment of the chain master changes look solid. I rarely use Carneri (my familiar) to her full potential to keep from annoying the DM and making him swat her, and to not step on our rogues toes. I tend to reach for her when I feel we need help, so I don't have a solid feel for her combat performance now. I think I have attacked with her in combat once, because I had LoS issues and couldn't do it myself. I could be scouting and getting myself advantage, but I tend do not do that for the reasons I mentioned. I do use her to do things like fly a grappling hook some place and secure it...DM uses her for story exposition from time to time (she knows some things).
I never cared for the one/rest invocations. I can take them or leave them depending on the spells available. They could be like the mystic arcanum change from the original playtest which I liked.
Right now, to get my low level slots, I tend to look at MC as a requirement rather than a suggestion. A dip into another caster class patches that up, but I'd rather not MC if I didn't have to. With the half casters getting their spells at level 1 now, some additional MC options are going to open up. Oathbreaker paladin going warlock for example makes some sense, for example (if you want to pay the insane stat penalty, which for the right character I would)
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Pact of the Blade (and Thirsting Blade) do need to get toned down.
1) They shouldn't grant more than two attacks
2) They shouldn't grant weapon masteries
3) They shouldn't grant proficiency with every martial weapon under the sun including ranged and heavy weapons
Even if you removed all of those things from them, people would still readily take them on a variety of gish builds - which is a clear sign that they're overtuned.
Note the once per long rest spells that DONT use a spell slot would be similar to the Playtest 5 warlock's mystic arcanums. Even if you didn't want it to be tied to a specific spell it could be "choose a spell from the wizard spell list of a level equal to or lower than the level of your pact magic slot you can cast that spell once per long rest without using a spell slot. You can take this invocation mutliple times each time you must pick a spell of a level different than one you already have.
For balance reasons warlock will never get low level slots plus pact slots that follow full casting progression. There are three clear choices:
1) Warlock looses all their invocations and EB and has full caster progression of spell slots.
2) Warlock retains their invocations & EB and has half-caster progression of spell slots.
3) Warlock retains their invocations & EB and has pact magic slots.
Two invocations for 4 spell slots is incredibly cheap, and would make Warlock superior to both Sorcerer & Wizard in casting, customization, and sustained damage which very unbalanced. If you want low level slots on your warlock with Pact Magic you should have to MC and thus sacrifice the progression of your Pact Magic slots, thus making you more of a half-caster.
I completely disagree with you in pretty much all regards. But then again, I think pact magic sucks and should have been killed, leaving us as a half caster. I'm not in warlock for pact magic. I stay in spite of it.
EDIT: I should say I don't advocate for more full progression up through 5th level spells, nor do I advocate for following full caster progression. I do currently MC my warlocks and delay my pact progression because it's not as good as lower level utility spells, and mystic arcanum in general is not impressive to me. I'm there for neat customizations. I like the fact that people who love mask of many things for example, can pick that up even though I don't find it to have value.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
And by utility spells you mean combat spells right? Utility spells are out of combat casting.
Also nobody is in warlock for pact magic instead of full casting. Everyone is in it For EB and for Invocations. It is the invocations that need to be worth the LOSS of those slots not the invocations that need to PROVIDE those slots. Otherwise just play a different full caster.
in combat utility, yes. IE non control or damaging spells. There aren't many decent low level spells on the warlock list. The big offenders aren't there to worry about.
Stuff like shield, silvery barbs (I think that's not carrying forward anyways), absorb elements, color spray, fog cloud, and hideous laughter aren't on the spell list. A warlock has to make sacrifices to pick those up, and those are the ones that are going to make major differences at higher levels. Casting hex at first level? It's damage, but not much...and uses your conc. Who cares? A first level hellish rebuke? Again, who really cares? Cause Fear and Charm Person are the two biggest spells to worry about at higher levels, and I dont think that a couple of those per day is going to cause an issue.
yes, people are there for invocations. But they also want to cast more spells. That's the whole reason that they tried to change it to a half caster. JC has said that the primary complaint with warlocks is that they don't cast often enough. People want to have some options that aren't EB and AB. Those are nice go-to's but they want some other options as well. And I think that desire is not asking for something broken.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
So specifically defensive or control spells. Because hideous laughter, color spray and fog cloud are all definitely control spells. Shield, silvery barbs and absorb elements are all defensive spells.
You can pick any first level spell up with magic initiate and Pact of the tome gives another first level slot that is 2 casting of any first level spell you want that is half the normal casting already you just have "less flexibility" unless you take magic initiate multiple times.
I do think adding more defensive and maybe some control combat stuff could be interesting through invocations, but I don't think they need more "Casting". Yes the prior tests said warlocks needed more casting. Between Magical cunning, ritual casting being universal, magic initiate, the buff to tome to allow a first level slot and the reduced level of several invocations while also providing MORE invocations the warlock can cast more spells then ever by a significant margin. So they listened to that feedback and achieved the goal.
Combat orientated utility invocations include Ascendent step to get out of melee range, Investment of the chain master TRIES to make your familiar into a combat companion but fails, Lessons of the first ones to grab any first level spell you want with magic initiative and you can take it multiple times, Misty visions for at will silent images for distractions and illusory walls that can fool people, One with shadows for invisibility in the right scenario which can let you avoid AOO and is a solid get out of jail defensive spell, Otherworldly leap with jump now being a bonus action and effectively increasing movement speed by 20 feet it is a solid movement option in combat, and eldritch mind to have advantage for all concentration.
So the invocations themselves provide some more "utility combat" casting. It just doesn't provide specifically shield spam. But again if you just want straight full caster low level casting warlock is pretty clearly saying just play full caster and not warlock. Warlock is for this pseudo martial and martials can't spam shield either.
Strong disagree there, during the warlock debates during the UA several people made it very clear that they were absolutely in warlock for the pact magic slots specifically for the SR recharge. It's why IMO the only "solution" to warlock is cutting it in half into two classes: an arcane half-caster and a SR-caster (While they are at it they can make one INT-based and one CHA-based).
Something like an INT-based "Witch" class that is an arcane half-caster with Tome, and Chain as your 1st level build options (like Druid & Cleric have 1st level combat vs casting build options now) - Tome granting AB on all cantrips and Chain granting BA familiar attacks, and talisman baked into the class at higher levels.
And a CHA-based "Witch Knight" class that is a SR caster with EB vs Blade Pact as their 1st level build options. This should probably absorb the "Arcane Shot" ideas from Arcane Archer but make them weapon-agnostic.
Also BTW what "neat customization" are you talking about? I personally find warlock no more customizable than any other class. Sure they have invocations but at least 1/2 of those aren't worth taking, and another 1/3 are clearly oriented around a specific type of build so are must-takes. You have your blade-lock and your EB-lock as your big two options which isn't that different from other classes, Rogues, Rangers and Fighters can be melee-focused or ranged-focused, Barbarians and Paladins can be offence-focused or defence-focused, Clerics can be ranged-support or melee-DPR, Wizard and Sorcerers are blasters or controllers. Bards and Druids can be support/healer focused or battlefield control focused. Your only really limited class is Monk.
getting a patron and a pact feels like two subclasses almost. invocations can make warlocks play and look very different even with the same pact boon or patron. A fighter's gonna look like a fighter. You never know what a warlock is going to look like.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I disagree, every warlock looks like a warlock. They throw up a concentration spell (Hex, Blur, Hunger of Hadar, Spirit Shroud, Greater Invisibility, or Shadow of Moil) then spam weapon attacks and/or EB+AB, and save their other slot for a "get-out-of-jail" emergency for something like Counterspell, Thunderstep/Misty Step. They are generally squishy relying on magic to survive in melee (or to escape it), and have a little bit of out-of-combat utility from mainly from invocations.
Show me two 6th level Fiend Pact warlocks with the Pact of the Chain that play substantially differently. - backstory & RP don't count as any class can have any backstory / RP they want.
e.g. here's all the different RP / backstories I can come up with in half an hour for Fighter:
Agree to disagree.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha