Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Armor and shield proficiency doesn't make any sense as an Invocation.
First, it's a characteristic of the old class that they would be removing. Second, unless there is an absurd level requirement, it would be something other classes that were already considering a dip in Warlock could take depending on the level requirement.
It should be a subclass feature or an equivalent, sustained defense should be provided. This defense should not be restricted to melee or by the curse. If the expectation is to rely on Armor of Shadows, you could give the Hexblade the Invocation for free (and of course, pick a new Invocation if they already have it) and possibly improve immediately and/or over later levels.
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Don’t make open statements about things not making sense in a game about playing pretend and telling stories with your friends. Everything can make sense depending on the context.
First look at every cleric subclass that gave heavy armor in 5e that has been updated to 5.5e. So within this context it makes sense. The rules can be adjusted, that was the entire point of updating to 5.5e.
This suggestion is just one way of pulling it forward without making the Hexblade superior to all other warlock subclasses. If improved defenses are part of Hexblade subclass it should only be for melee combat or it should have a cost of some kind. If they aren’t going to change the Hexblade to balance it against the other warlock subclasses they don’t need to update it at all. It can remain a 5e choice. No point in wasting the ink and paper to make a 5.5 version that would immediately be the objectively be the best 5.5e warlock.
I feel the issue with making the medium armor invocation a level 1 invocation is it completely invalidates the already pretty much invalidated invocation that allows you to cast mage armor on yourself at will. In addition level 1 does seem to want to push you into one of the pact invocations with only at will mage armor and advantage of concentration checks being the only other level 1 invocations.
I mean that it doesn't make design sense. It doesn't solve the problem for the subclass. It creates problems for the class, subclass, and can incentivize dipping into the class to cherry pick features.
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"If medium armor and shield is too powerful for all warlocks then it it definitely too powerful for just one warlock." - This is a not sound logic to me. Other subclasses grant some measure of defenses with Archfey being the illusive teleporter with Temp HP. Fiend grants Temp HP on kills, boosts to Ability Checks and Saving Throws and one interchangeable Damage Resistance. Celestial grants a budget Lay on Hands, Radiant Damage Resistance, and access to healing magics. GOO have the least reliant defenses in their mind-disturbance causing the target DisADV on ATK rolls against you and you ADV on ATK rolls against them.
Why is it then too powerful to grant the Hexblade Armor training as their primary defense benefit?
It could very well be too powerful to grant the Fiend subclass easy access to Medium Armor ON TOP of their other defensive features for the purpose of making a Warlock caster, that naturally have range as their initial and primary defense barrier.
On the subject of Pact of the Armor: This is a serious danger to make a lot of other invocation options obsolete. Would I have wished they made those options (like Armor of Shadows) better than what they are? Definitely. But they are what they are now. Making a singular Invocation to grant Medium Armor and Shield training would be an auto-include for any caster because they give up basically nothing for it: They don't need a weapon so they already have hands free to grip a Shield. A Bladelock would require War Caster or giving up spells with Somatics components that don't include a Material component where their Pact Weapon can satisfy both - or a lenient DM that allows draw-/stowing more freely than the rules enable when making an attack. This invocation would help caster Warlocks more than Bladelocks, and honestly that's not where the help is needed.
Back to Invocation tax: At level 5 you have access to 5 Invocations, and for a Bladelock you're already locking in Pact of the Blade and Thirsting Blade - this build doesn't really make sense without those. Many will also find it very alluring to pick up Fiendish Vigor to pad their lacking HP and limited other defenses. That leaves two Invocations. With Pact of the Armor, that leaves 1 invocation. The major class feature that sets Warlock apart is the modular building blocks of the Invocation system and you leave Bladelocks with 1 real choice at level 5 and almost guarantee a need for War Caster at level 4. PYF of Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight, Eldritch Mind, or Eldritch Smite if you want to keep improving the Bladelock build or go for some other utility.
If you make the Hexblade's features operate in a manner that benefits Bladelocks significantly more than caster Warlocks, you can bridge some of the disparity caused by caster Warlocks being at ranged and only really requiring 1 invocation to secure competitive damage contribution, and Bladelocks requiring the ability to survive in melee range, requiring additional need to maintain Concentration (Concentration spells being the most efficient use of their limited spell slots), and needing to use at least 3x invocations to be competitive in their damage and likely spending 5-6 in total to also cover survivability.
Bladelocks do give something up compared to a Caster Warlock. They give up the relative safety of ranged attacks by being melee exclusive, they give up 3x Invocations to acquire similar damage to Eldritch Blast paired with just Agonizing Blast and the opportunity costs of the control options available to Eldritch Blast. The relative safety of range also means less risk of losing Concentration, so your limited spell slots can get a lot more mileage without being disrupted, so you have less need/desire to secure against losing Concentration. If the Hexblade subclass were to give additional AC by Armor training, then the Bladelock also "give up" the opportunity cost of other subclasses and their features.
There's a reason that ranged weaponry only go up to a d10 on a weapon with Loading property or a d8 without it, requiring two-hands and is a martial weapon class. And the same reason that melee weapons generally have higher weapon damage dice: Higher risk; higher reward. This is currently not true with Bladelock compared to an Eldritch Blaster.
As for entitled players that want things for free, I find caster Warlocks take a lot for granted that Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast functions as well as they do together to secure caster Warlocks with a competent damage output of a stellar damage type without resource costs for their entire career, and how well it functions with the Hex spell to add more to it if desired, and then come around and say Bladelocks don't give anything up.
'
Let me hit you with this Homebrew:
Eldritch Blast doesn't get cantrip upgrades but can add your Spellcasting Ability Modifier to the damage roll straight off the bat. You need Agonizing Blast at lvls 5, 11, and 17 to get more beams.
If WotC had made the Warlock like this, I guarantee that Warlocks would be complaining about an Invocation tax.
A terrible invocation existing does not mean imo they shouldn't make another invocation that does something similar but better. Ideally they would fix bad invocations, but they seem to be opposed to making errata past typo corrections. I guess they like the 3e philosophy of trap options. So create a new invocation that offers defense but does not suck. Thematically I'd go with summon armor onto your body that is worn and you are proficient in as its like pack of the blade then.
An invocation to add +1 to +3 to a non-magic weapons for Pact of the Blade. bonded weapon is something I would be interested in.
Yes. I think the cool of the ability is the creation of weapons, the chr use just makes it functional. But once magic weapons are introduced you kind of lock in on that weapon. personally instead of +1 etc id prefer a rarity based system but that may be a bit too far.
So many people to address.
Aquilontune. Mage Armor has one great benefit over medium armor and shields. It comes up so rarely it almost doesn’t matter. You can sleep in mage armor. Anyway making a Pact of the Armor invocation at least gives the option to all warlocks. As a Pact it also offers growth through other invocations that could make it worth the tax. If it’s just a 2nd or 3rd level invocation that just gives you training I don’t think it’s worth the tax.
SmiteMakesRight. A pact of armor does fix the problem for the subclass by giving them the option to add defenses. It also doesn’t incentivize dipping anymore than warlock is already dippable. Fighter and paladin are better 1 level dips for defensive improvements.
Iteration. The logic is very sound you just have your fingers in your ears and don’t want to listen. The last UA Hexblade had defensive abilities as well. They weren’t that great, but it had them. Why should only the Hexblade that gets improved damage also get armor and shield training at 3rd level? Also Armor and shields have the potential to be magical out pacing all the other defensive features other warlocks have. Bladelocks don’t give up anything. They take a risk of going into melee but they can still blast from a distance. Honestly they could blast from a distance then when something is within melee range thinking it’s safe from the blasting they stab it. If you give only hexblade’s the training their AC is better while blasting too.
That was in one of the 5e books, but it was only a +1 it was called improved pact weapon. It added that bonus to any pact weapon that didn’t have a bonus. So you could have a +1 flame tongue as a pact weapon.
I do tend to agree that if it is a "pact of the armor" ability then it probably would be something you would start with at level 1. There are also reasons to want to be able to change armor quickly and on the fly with things like strength requirements and stealth disadvantages or not + additional invocations on top of it could make for a cool new pact. My only thing against it being level 1 was if it wasn't a "pact" invocation at which point I felt it should be level 2 as most invocations that aren't pact invocations with the rare exception being 2 options that don't really do a lot to add to the warlock at level 1.
At the end of the day, I think baseline Blade is already giving enough to justify the Invocation tax- you get to attack with your casting stat, extra attacks that scale up to 3 rolls per action, a rider for bonus damage on one attack per round with a healing option, pretty reliable bypassing of any damage resistances/immunities, and a Smite option. Throwing in Fighter equivalent passive staying power seems like a bit too much at once, imo. Especially since you can still take EB and have a nearly equally effective- as in, without AB- ranged option without impacting your Blade kit at all.
Pact of Armor fixes a problem but doesn't fit the subclass because:
Right now, the subclass is coded for you to be in melee combat, preferably while with the target of your curse. Ignoring the curse itself, there are 10 abilities from the subclass (some are under the heading of a larger ability, like Hungering Hex and Accursed Shield are under Hexblade's Curse, but I am counting them individually). Of those, 7 only function with a target cursed by Hexblade's Curse, which until level 14 will realistically only be active for a few minutes per day, but more likely less than 1 minute*. Think about that, you have a subclass that is about doing its thing for a minute or two a day and then it is a generic Warlock. Two only function within 10 feet of an enemy, one additional is about moving closer to the hexed target's location, and another one relies on making a weapon attack.
*You can extend the theoretical duration beyond 1 minute per Charisma modifier uses by using certain spells, but without the ability to move the Hexblade's Curse, you are constrained by how long a cursed target survives combat.
A subclass member can be built around ranged attacks and so frontline survivability becomes less important, but you lose out on a decent chunk of the class doing so. If they are in melee, they will be likely need:
That's level 5 before there is any real distinction between Hexblades. If you add a "Pact of Armor" Invocation, it just replaces Armor of Shadows and solves nothing. What it does do is strengthen the non-Hexblade options, devaluing Hexblade itself. It's a problem we already saw with the Pact of the Blade changes.
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Glad you agree it fixes the problem.
Being available to all warlocks is not a problem, unless you are saying your warlock needs to be more powerful than other warlocks.
Competing for invocation space means it’s a choice you have to make. That’s fine. This whole game is about making choices.
Armor of Shadows would be for people who need defense improvement while sleeping, know they are in a low item game, don’t want something that could be physically taken from them, or who don’t want to wear physical armor. Also armor of shadows has always been a meh pick even in 5e. You could always wear studded leather for a +2, so the invocation has really only offered a +1 to AC. If you find magic studded armor you swap out the invocation unless you care about one of the previous reasons I mentioned to take armor of shadows.
I'm not sure why a invocation outpacing a trap option is a bad thing. Armor of shadows is terrible, it has always been terrible outside the 2014 abjurer glitch, unless they errata it it will remain terrible. Pact armor would effectively be a patch for a terrible invocation since they never actually just fix bad things.
It doesn't fix the Hexblade and the Hexblade needs more melee survivability, preferably before their initiative comes up for the first time. It fixes the problem at the surface while providing nothing that distinguishes the Hexblade from other Warlocks. Let's just make Healing Light an Invocation and call that making the Celestial Warlock a better healer than other Warlocks. Your Pact of the Armor Invocation makes the Hexblade a worse option by adding nothing that other Warlocks can't also do. The only reason to push Pact of Armor is to provide Medium Armor and Shield Proficiency to non-Hexblades and non-Warlocks already considering a Warlock dip. You are not interested in fixing Hexblade, you are further cannibalizing their abilities for other subclasses and classes.
Additionally. the long list of invocations that a Hexblade needs to take in order to function as a Hexblade is designed to function and fully utilize their subclass features means that they will be carbon copies until level 5 or so.
And yet, the Hexblade subclass leans into that meh pick by giving you an AC buff only while not wearing armor or a shield. It's not that I want to take Armor of Shadows, it's that if I want to use that class feature, I have to (or take Magic Initiate/multiclass into an Unarmored Defense class). For a pure Warlock perspective, fully using the subclass as designed, I have to use Armor of Shadows. I have to ignore the Light Armor proficiency of the class.
Because you can't use Accursed Shield with any kind of armor and it doesn't fix Hexblade. What is the point of Hexblade if I can just take Pact of Blade and Pact of Armor and I have my melee Warlock? The UA Hexblade does some neat things, but to fully use the subclasses, you have to utilize a limited resource and forgo armor. Accursed Shield is kind of like what if a Barbarian's Rage or Bladesinger's Bladesong ended when you killed an enemy.
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Hexblade’s curse is supposed to be what makes a Hexblade be different to other warlocks. Honestly 5e Hexblade was just a patch for the poorly designed 5e Pact of the Blade. Now that 5.5 Pact of the Blade is fixed there isn’t much need for a Hexblade. The UA redesigns feel short which is why it isn’t in the upcoming books. Also I’m not cannibalizing hexblades for other subclasses. I’ve repeatedly stated that if hexblades need more armor and a shield It must be an option for all warlocks. Otherwise you are just making the Hexblade objectively more powerful than all other warlocks. There are other ways to design Hexblade to improve their AC that can be subclass specific. This invocation tax version only exists as long as no one can think of a satisfying way to improve their AC as part of the subclass that doesn’t make them the must pick of all warlocks.
Accursed Shield was bad, but I’m sure plenty of people told them that in the survey. Also remember that all barbarians who use unarmored defense have to ignore the armor training provided by the class. The Beast barbarian has to avoid the weapon training provided by the class. The problem is Accursed Shield is bad, not that it makes you choose something else. You could play a hexblade and avoid melee combat. Honestly you don’t have to take pact of the blade at all. They need to start from the ground up to redesign the Hexblade for 5.5e. Otherwise it is not needed. We don’t need an objectively better than the others warlock.
This. The only good reason to release a new hexblade is to errata the old one out even more.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Now you are started to understand the Hexblade's situation. The Hexblade provided the path for melee Warlocks. With Pact of the Blade taking part of Hexblade's Hex Warrior mechanics, and the revised Hexblade scattering the benefits of Hexblade's Curse from level 3 to across levels 3 (a lesser on death regain HP), 14 (Accursed Critical), and proficiency bonus to damage was just deleted. You can use the feature a few more times per day (Charisma per day versus once per day), but the buff from Accursed Shield won't last through combat unless you are fighting a single enemy or target the enemy you expect to go down last. Hungering Hex doesn't help you stay in the fight unless you target the enemy you expect to go down first.
Unyielding Will is okay ... once per day. Although it's not clear whether you can fail a saving throw to maintain concentration, choose to succeed, and trigger the emanation. If you are worried about concentration, you are probably in melee.
At level 6, Harrowing Hex doesn't require a melee attack but leans into the martial bent. Inescapable Hex is about staying close to your enemy. Armor of Hexes doesn't require you to be in melee range like Accursed Critical does, but it still requires your limited use curse to be on someone.
The Hexblade 5e was a semi-martial subclass with lasting options for frontline and rear-line defense (armor and shield proficiency). Apart from the spells, the UA Hexblade is still martial coded and is more melee coded than in 5e but only has short term defensive options (tied to an enemy being cursed). It even loses defensive spells like Blur and Blink and encourages you to discard the light armor proficiency from your class.
You've repeatedly been wrong. Hexblade's subclass mechanics pushes them into melee combat more than any other subclass. They need the additional survivability to act in the front line. Other Warlocks can wear Light Armor. Their defensive options were changed from being a standing part of Hex Warrior to being tied to being in melee range of their cursed target. In 5e, when their curse target died, they could skip the healing to move the curse to another target, but the UA Hexblade can never do that. They are like Bladesinger Wizards that lose Bladesong when an enemy dies. Whatever form it takes, the defensive benefit from their subclass needs to last all day and not be tied to one fight, let alone one enemy. If the defensive bonus can be removed (effect dispelled or proficient equipment removed), that's fine.
Hexblades were never the must pick of all warlocks, just the ones that wanted to lean into melee or who were level 1 to 19 Paladins (*whistles innocently*).
But piling on another Invocation cannibalized from the 5e Hexblade mechanics and making it available to all Warlocks just begs the question of what is the point of the Hexblade? What does it do that another Warlock doesn't do better? You could even lean into melee more by having Accursed shield be a standing + [2, Proficiency Bonus, Charisma Modifier] AC against melee attacks when wearing Light Armor and not using a shield. That would protect the Warlock in melee, be no benefit to a back line character, and provide a lasting benefit. You could even just make it Shield Proficiency.
Another alternative is to tie more abilities to melee. Sure, you have Medium Armor and/or Shield Proficiency, but Harrowing Hex gives you a Bonus Action melee weapon attack, Armor of Hexes only triggers only melee damage... If you tie more of the class abilities to melee and melee weapons, is the Hexblade going to be the must pick of all warlocks, or just the ones that want to lean into Pact of the Blade?
The 5.24 redesign moving Subclasses for Warlocks from level 1 to level 3 and cannibalizing Hex Warrior into Pact of the Blade already mostly takes care of the single level dip for Hexblade. Your desire to cannibalize the rest of Hex Warrior into a Pact Invocation (all Pact of Invocations are level 1 Invocations) just gives more classes reason to level 1 or 2 dip Warlock. No other Warlock subclass needs the higher defense that the melee focused one. If they get a boost to their defense, it should be tied to that subclass and not generally available or it devalues the subclass. Why should I be a Hexblade when I can pick up Pact of the Blade and be just as good while healing as a Celestial Warlock?
This is an invalid comparison because Unarmored Defense provides a lasting alternative AC formula. It is even theoretically possible (theoretically) for the Unarmored Defense AC to exceed AC via armor proficiency.
An Accursed Armor that was 10 + Charisma Modifier + Dexterity would be more comparable but that probably be way too good, despite being the exact feature College of Dance Bard and Oath of Noble Genies Paladins get (but those classes don't get the ability to use Charisma for weapon attacks without a Warlock dip.
I don't know what WotC's obsession with armorless defense this edition is though. I think only the Armorer gets more proficient with Armor via a subclass. Everyone else gets an unarmored bonus or an unarmored AC formula. It stands out here because it is a subclass that gained armor proficiency and now WotC is removing the perk and encouraging you to streak in combat. It's weird.
Bladesong is a better comparison, but that has a duration independent of other factors and doesn't conflict with any Wizard features.
We'll see what that looks like when it gets updated. As it is now, they don't have to avoid anything. It's an option, but starting at level 5, the abilities can be used interchangeably with their normal attacks. At levels 3-4, the Beast Barbarian can use the tail option to boost their defenses while using their class provided weapon proficiencies (or weapon and shield proficiencies) if they don't want to use the tail to attack. It is also available as a reach weapon for opportunity attacks. If you want to double claw or nom for the heals, that is always an option.
Unlike Form of the Beast and weapon proficiency, Accursed Shield has no option that works alongside Light Armor proficiency.
Starting at level 5, a Beast Barbarian with a Great Axe can attack once with the Great Axe (perhaps triggering cleave), then attack with a Bite (for the once per turn heal) or claw (for the once per turn extra claw) without losing anything from their class or subclass. The tail transformation is less standout at this point because the other abilities are more accessible. However, it's still good in the same way it was at level 3, it gives you a defensive reaction and a surprise reach attack.
After Form of the Beast, Infectious Fury is the only subclass ability that is tied to their "natural weapons" (these will probably be changed to unarmed strikes in 5.24) and that only requires that you use the Bite, Claw, or Tail for that attack which only represents 4-6 attacks out of the day.
No, Path of the Beast Barbarians don't give up any class features to utilize their subclass features. It is more accurate to say that Path of the Beast can, on a turn-by-turn basis, temporarily replace their class weapon proficiency with subclass natural weapon attacks to gain limited extra abilities while a Hexblade has to permanently replace their class armor proficiency in order to use an extremely temporary Subclass defensive ability that does not provide an improvement at any level.
If you think the Hexblade is objectively better than other Warlocks, you were just building hack and slash Warlocks and now complain that no other subclass competes for stabbing people.
With 2024e content only, you can:
These are options available to all Warlock Subclasses. Also, note that going 4 levels in on Bard or Artificer costs you a Mystic Arcanum, but you wind up with the same number of feats (but potentially 2 Boons) at level 20.
The Hexblade, being a, relatively speaking, frontliner needs a single class defense option.
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