if you remember the original wording for Theurgy was Domain specific. Knowledge, light and nature. now they sight those as appropriate but leave it open to interpretation for a smart dm to say that's a good or bad idea so people don't outright break the game and ruin everybody's fun. So yeah a few changes to the rewrite.
You seem to have misplace anger issues and a rather un-fun and narrow perspective of how D&D should be played.
First, when there are already other classes that have healing abilities and divine or divine like magic,, why shouldn't a thematically appropriate wizard have a path to get these abilities, too? Second, how does having another faith-based spell caster steal any of the shine from a cleric? Does a Druid make a cleric no longer useful? Can a Theurge wizard wear armor and wield a mace like a cleric can, generally no, they cannot. Third, why is it not a problem to have an Arcana Cleric, but it is a problem to have a Theurge Wizard? Your bias makes no sense. Nothing about the Theurge wizard "breaks" the game! If your game is ever broken, you either have a lousy DM or poor and unimaginative players.
The Theurge wizard is cool and thematically appropriate and not at all overpowered. It belongs as an official subclass. I do think it should be made a bit more powerful to make it easier to play and more fun.
If you do not like it, then do not use it in your campaign. It is that simple. WOTC really needs to completely ignore unimaginative "rules lawyers" like you, and just focus on building a game that everyone can enjoy. At the end of the day, D&D should be about giving players as many options as possible to have fun and enjoy the game, not making them bend to the whims of a narrow special interest group that seems to think fun is about making players suffer and telling them everything they cannot do. If you need a bunch of restrictions to play a game fairly and have fun, then you have a poor DM, poor players, or both.
I really like them, but Theurgist rubs me the wrong way, especially after Favored Soul got punched so hard in the stomach that it's still doubled over and groaning. This is, unfortunately, the new normal.
"You want to be an arcane caster that has links to a deity? Sure, here's some domain powers! Oh, you want to play a sorcerer. How about a swift kick to the groin instead?"
It doesn't matter if the theurge gets other features later than a cleric because they're not a cleric. Clerics specifically worship a god and get divine power from them. A theurge is a better cleric.
Theurges specifically worship a god and get divine power from them, too. That's the point. But they don't get any of the Cleric's hit dice, proficiencies, or cleric-specific magical items.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
⬐If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
Theurges should, in exchange for the increased versatility, have weaker growth. Archetypes normally either allow you to specialize deeper into your class, or dabble a little in another's. Bladesinger gives the wizard some martial prowess instead of magic, and it compares well to Fighter's Eldritch Knight. They both compliment each other well as cross-class archetypes. Arcana Cleric is Cleric's way to dabble a little in Wizard, but the reverse is not the case. Theurge allows you to specialize in Cleric, which is not what one of the most versatile base classes needs. Lore Wizard is in the same boat for similar reasons. Both of those UA archetypes are unacceptable compared to most other offerings. I allow almost all UA, and even multiclassing with UA, but Theurge and Lore are not options in my games.
It doesn't matter if the theurge gets other features later than a cleric because they're not a cleric. Clerics specifically worship a god and get divine power from them. A theurge is a better cleric.
Theurges specifically worship a god and get divine power from them, too. That's the point. But they don't get any of the Cleric's hit dice, proficiencies, or cleric-specific magical items.
A few more proficiencies, hit points and some slightly better armor doesn't even begin to cover the versatility that wizards provide. The Theurge almost doubles that versatility with zero drawbacks, and at 14th level is a better Cleric than the actual cleric is. Sure, theurges worship a god and get divine power from them as well, but it shouldn't be in the exact same way as a cleric. You want an arcane cleric? There's an Arcana domain for that. The Theurge is a ploy to make the most versatile (and perhaps the best) class in the game even better by taking cleric spells and features.
The biggest issue, as before, is taking the cleric 17th level ability and giving it to a wizard at 14th level. If those 17th level abilities are weak enough to give out at 14th, why are they even capstones to begin with? Why would I play a cleric when I can play a theurge and have the most powerful cleric abilities at a much lower level? Most campaigns stop at 15th level, so if I wanted to use all of the cleric features I'll just play a theurge. Which is absurd.
I love the flavor of the Theurge. And I totally agree that some abilities are OP for the level. Easy fix for a DM though. Just postpone them until a level or two after a Cleric would receive them. I can see it would cause problems at levels where all the other PCs get cool abilities and the Theurge has to wait, however the utility of the abilities would be worth the wait in my mind. Also from an RP stand point, Wizards are not Clerics. Clerics spend their lives in service and devotion to a deity to gain their abilities. Wizards research. So it makes sense that the divine aspect of the Theurge would come second, and later, to the arcane aspect, no matter how hard you pray to Ioun.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Welcome to the Grand Illusion, come on in and see what's happening, pay the price, get your ticket for the show....
Wisdom is a better stat than intelligence, generally, and the theurge can't actually use the weapons and armor or anything, so it really only competes with casting oriented clerics like light, or ironically, arcane. I think it's pretty good as is actually- I do think that the requirement to learn the domain spells first should stay in place - it's also worth considering that the Wizard's strength relative to other casters is a huge spell selection, and the spellbook to take advantage of it, Theurge does amplify that strength by giving wizards access, but it doesn't sport the base cleric features that would make you want to play a cleric in the first place. The Theurge also gives up it's school specialization (which is typically really important, because otherwise wizards only really cast spells in a pretty raw way) for the expanded versatility of being allowed to cast spells that are normally outside it's purview- I can take some down tuning (maybe that channel divinity thing should be replaced with a ribbon) but not only do i think theurge is ok, I want to see an equivalent for the druid and maybe the warlock too.
The whole point of the Theurgist is that wizards can worship a god and get divine power from them. The first two paragraphs of the class explains that. Removing the "fill up your domain" spell requirement is NOT making wizards more powerful. This subclass doesn't gain any additional features or abilities outside of what we gain from the cleric. We gain NO proficiencies, we can't call on our god to help us, we get domain abilities. Clerics are still powerful, this doesn't change that.
I like the "Fill up your domain requirement", but as it stands the wording is a bit unclear. Should a Theurge be required to have all of his domain spells from 1-5 level inclusive before selecting cleric spells from outside of the domain, this does seem a bit too restrictive. If the intent is that all available domain spells must be selected at a given level before the rest of the cleric spell list becomes accessible, this becomes a great utility but still one with somewhat (and justifiably) limited access to Clerical spells.
It doesn't matter if the theurge gets other features later than a cleric because they're not a cleric. Clerics specifically worship a god and get divine power from them. A theurge is a better cleric.
Theurges specifically worship a god and get divine power from them, too. That's the point. But they don't get any of the Cleric's hit dice, proficiencies, or cleric-specific magical items.
A few more proficiencies, hit points and some slightly better armor doesn't even begin to cover the versatility that wizards provide. The Theurge almost doubles that versatility with zero drawbacks, and at 14th level is a better Cleric than the actual cleric is. Sure, theurges worship a god and get divine power from them as well, but it shouldn't be in the exact same way as a cleric. You want an arcane cleric? There's an Arcana domain for that. The Theurge is a ploy to make the most versatile (and perhaps the best) class in the game even better by taking cleric spells and features.
The biggest issue, as before, is taking the cleric 17th level ability and giving it to a wizard at 14th level. If those 17th level abilities are weak enough to give out at 14th, why are they even capstones to begin with? Why would I play a cleric when I can play a theurge and have the most powerful cleric abilities at a much lower level? Most campaigns stop at 15th level, so if I wanted to use all of the cleric features I'll just play a theurge. Which is absurd.
The most powerful Cleric ability is the Divine intervention feature. Theurgists do not have access to this. The Clerical power over the undead, ability to wear medium or heavy armour, use a broader variety of weapons, The "extra" spells come at the cost of selecting spells (which are balanced by level) from their own spell list. They do not gain access to an 8th level domain ability and depending on the domain selected, many of the spells they are required to take are essentially throw-aways from a min/maxing or power gaming perspective which seems to be what your argument is based on. The Fact is the Theurge gives away something for everything they get and much of their access to Clerical features is at a later level than a true clerics. They don't get access to the 1st level feature until 6th level after all.
The Theurge is thematically and mechanically a devoted ritualist and caster, but by no means a replacement for the Cleric regardless of their access to one particular ability in exchange for another.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
if you remember the original wording for Theurgy was Domain specific. Knowledge, light and nature. now they sight those as appropriate but leave it open to interpretation for a smart dm to say that's a good or bad idea so people don't outright break the game and ruin everybody's fun. So yeah a few changes to the rewrite.
You seem to have misplace anger issues and a rather un-fun and narrow perspective of how D&D should be played.
First, when there are already other classes that have healing abilities and divine or divine like magic,, why shouldn't a thematically appropriate wizard have a path to get these abilities, too? Second, how does having another faith-based spell caster steal any of the shine from a cleric? Does a Druid make a cleric no longer useful? Can a Theurge wizard wear armor and wield a mace like a cleric can, generally no, they cannot. Third, why is it not a problem to have an Arcana Cleric, but it is a problem to have a Theurge Wizard? Your bias makes no sense. Nothing about the Theurge wizard "breaks" the game! If your game is ever broken, you either have a lousy DM or poor and unimaginative players.
The Theurge wizard is cool and thematically appropriate and not at all overpowered. It belongs as an official subclass. I do think it should be made a bit more powerful to make it easier to play and more fun.
If you do not like it, then do not use it in your campaign. It is that simple. WOTC really needs to completely ignore unimaginative "rules lawyers" like you, and just focus on building a game that everyone can enjoy. At the end of the day, D&D should be about giving players as many options as possible to have fun and enjoy the game, not making them bend to the whims of a narrow special interest group that seems to think fun is about making players suffer and telling them everything they cannot do. If you need a bunch of restrictions to play a game fairly and have fun, then you have a poor DM, poor players, or both.
I really like them, but Theurgist rubs me the wrong way, especially after Favored Soul got punched so hard in the stomach that it's still doubled over and groaning. This is, unfortunately, the new normal.
"You want to be an arcane caster that has links to a deity? Sure, here's some domain powers! Oh, you want to play a sorcerer. How about a swift kick to the groin instead?"
Then that happens. For 19 more levels.
⬐ If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
Theurges should, in exchange for the increased versatility, have weaker growth. Archetypes normally either allow you to specialize deeper into your class, or dabble a little in another's. Bladesinger gives the wizard some martial prowess instead of magic, and it compares well to Fighter's Eldritch Knight. They both compliment each other well as cross-class archetypes. Arcana Cleric is Cleric's way to dabble a little in Wizard, but the reverse is not the case. Theurge allows you to specialize in Cleric, which is not what one of the most versatile base classes needs. Lore Wizard is in the same boat for similar reasons. Both of those UA archetypes are unacceptable compared to most other offerings. I allow almost all UA, and even multiclassing with UA, but Theurge and Lore are not options in my games.
Mrfluckoff
I love the flavor of the Theurge. And I totally agree that some abilities are OP for the level. Easy fix for a DM though. Just postpone them until a level or two after a Cleric would receive them. I can see it would cause problems at levels where all the other PCs get cool abilities and the Theurge has to wait, however the utility of the abilities would be worth the wait in my mind. Also from an RP stand point, Wizards are not Clerics. Clerics spend their lives in service and devotion to a deity to gain their abilities. Wizards research. So it makes sense that the divine aspect of the Theurge would come second, and later, to the arcane aspect, no matter how hard you pray to Ioun.
Welcome to the Grand Illusion, come on in and see what's happening, pay the price, get your ticket for the show....
Wisdom is a better stat than intelligence, generally, and the theurge can't actually use the weapons and armor or anything, so it really only competes with casting oriented clerics like light, or ironically, arcane. I think it's pretty good as is actually- I do think that the requirement to learn the domain spells first should stay in place - it's also worth considering that the Wizard's strength relative to other casters is a huge spell selection, and the spellbook to take advantage of it, Theurge does amplify that strength by giving wizards access, but it doesn't sport the base cleric features that would make you want to play a cleric in the first place. The Theurge also gives up it's school specialization (which is typically really important, because otherwise wizards only really cast spells in a pretty raw way) for the expanded versatility of being allowed to cast spells that are normally outside it's purview- I can take some down tuning (maybe that channel divinity thing should be replaced with a ribbon) but not only do i think theurge is ok, I want to see an equivalent for the druid and maybe the warlock too.
The whole point of the Theurgist is that wizards can worship a god and get divine power from them. The first two paragraphs of the class explains that. Removing the "fill up your domain" spell requirement is NOT making wizards more powerful. This subclass doesn't gain any additional features or abilities outside of what we gain from the cleric. We gain NO proficiencies, we can't call on our god to help us, we get domain abilities. Clerics are still powerful, this doesn't change that.
I like the "Fill up your domain requirement", but as it stands the wording is a bit unclear. Should a Theurge be required to have all of his domain spells from 1-5 level inclusive before selecting cleric spells from outside of the domain, this does seem a bit too restrictive. If the intent is that all available domain spells must be selected at a given level before the rest of the cleric spell list becomes accessible, this becomes a great utility but still one with somewhat (and justifiably) limited access to Clerical spells.
The most powerful Cleric ability is the Divine intervention feature. Theurgists do not have access to this. The Clerical power over the undead, ability to wear medium or heavy armour, use a broader variety of weapons, The "extra" spells come at the cost of selecting spells (which are balanced by level) from their own spell list. They do not gain access to an 8th level domain ability and depending on the domain selected, many of the spells they are required to take are essentially throw-aways from a min/maxing or power gaming perspective which seems to be what your argument is based on. The Fact is the Theurge gives away something for everything they get and much of their access to Clerical features is at a later level than a true clerics. They don't get access to the 1st level feature until 6th level after all.
The Theurge is thematically and mechanically a devoted ritualist and caster, but by no means a replacement for the Cleric regardless of their access to one particular ability in exchange for another.