Okay, so the Love Domain got under a lot of people's skins, and then the reaction to it got under a lot of other people's skins. While I sided with those who wanted the problematic elements removed, I do understand a lot of the points made by those who thought we were over reacting.
So, much like that Wish Fulfillment, let's talk about what we could make a love cleric look like. No negativity or judgement. we're just looking to create something that a lot of us are fair certain won't come again anyway.
Perhaps call it the Eros Domain, clearly specifying love as madness, and let the class focus on Mental Manipulation being the offensive control cleric.
The duality and broad applicability of the original Love Domain was a big part of its appeal. The fact that it could use its powers for both Good and Less-Than-Good, as a given situation warranted. Love can be warm, empowering, an expression of the deepest bonds between people...or it can be intense, painful, even maddening. We've all been through being so into someone that we can't stop thinking about them, even if maybe we kinda want to, or don't want to feel that way about that person.
Retain the Emboldening Bond ability. It's excellent and a good example of how to mechanically implement a connection between two characters that strengthens them. Replace the channel divinity with
Channel Divinity: Maddening Infatuation Whenever you cast a spell that causes a creature to become charmed, you may use your Channel Divinity to impose disadvantage on the saving throw of one target of that spell. If the chosen creature fails its save, in addition to the spell's normal effects, while charmed by the spell the creature becomes irresistibly infatuated with you. For the spell's duration the creature regards you in the best possible light and considers you an object of devotion and admiration, seeking to impress you and prove itself worthy of your affections in whatever way it sees fit. When taking an action that directly benefits you, the creature may roll 1d4 and add the result to any ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes to do so. The creature does not automatically follow your commands, though it may do as you ask if it believes doing so will impress you.
The creature will not kill itself, and it tries to avoid harming its allies if it is able. If you deal weapon or spell damage to the creature, this effect ends.
What This Does
First of all, it means any creature that's immune to being charmed is also immune to your Channel Divinity, which naturally arrests some of the otherwise worrisome potential for Ohh Pee Schitt.
Second of all, it makes the Love cleric pretty much the best character in the game at making use of the Charmed condition, which is something that I think we can all agree would fit.
Third of all, it allows the creature to retain control of its actions. Used on an ally, that ally is empowered with a permanent super Blessing for as long as the spell lasts as that ally strives to do their best to make you happy - however they want to. Used on an enemy, the enemy is allowed to act however the DM sees fit within the bounds of the ability. Whether that's turning on its allies because its fixation on you is stronger than its allegiance to people who may've abused it, whether that's giving you the best deal on a magic item you really want because the shop owner just loves you so much, or whether it backfires completely and the hobgoblin commander you've just beguiled does its best to murder everyone else in your party in a fit of yandere "YOU BELONG TO ME ALONE!" frenzy is all up to the DM.
Love can make you crazy. Sometimes not in ways anybody profits from.
Other Changes
Obviously this CD necessitates giving the Love domain back some charm spells. Charm Person at 1st and Charm Monster at 4th both seem essential. I'd also honestly say that Geas fits the legends this cleric emulates, and the idea behind it, frighteningly well, and I do mean frighteningly well. Given how long Geas can be made to last, a Love cleric casting Geas enhanced with Maddening Infatuation could be horrifying, potentially enough so to qualify as the charismatic villain of a campaign. Alternatively, it's an exceptionally powerful tool for players and a great narrative hook for DMs - the number of ways abusing Maddening Infatuation'd Geas could backfire on a party is infinite.
The rest of the Domain spells can be the more typical love-and-protect type. Warding Bond, Heroism, Aid perhaps, things like that. Not Ceremony, though. Ceremony is so damn specific and difficult to use that it's not really fair to saddle the cleric with that spell on a permanent basis. They can just prepare it in their normal rotation on a day where they're planning to marry people.
A sometimes common trope with "love potion type things" is that it isn't always the person administering the effect that benefits from it. You could possibly word the infatuation effect so that the target falls for the next person they encounter (so it isn't always you unless you do some clever maneuvering), or that it heightens their attraction towards things they're already attracted to (they don't find you attractive, but the wizard with their nose buried in a book is right up the target's alley).
You could also state these charming effects never force the target to do something uncomfortable (if the target is modest, or of high morale fiber, they don't step outside those boundaries). The effect should grease the wheels, not slip them a mickey, so to speak. The gods are only gifting you a motes of their being; leave the full on "I can't believe I did that sober" stuff to the higher powers.
Another thing the subclass could do is maybe wither relationships? To borrow from 7th Sea Fate Witches, maybe the cleric can strengthen, or weaken the bonds that already exist between people?
Personally, I think the best way to avoid the idea that a Love Cleric is gonna be one that focuses exclusively on a love that's in no way romantic. I think the bond mechanic as proposed is very strong for such a thing and a channel divinity might let you temporarily bond to more than one person. I do love a usage of mechanics that grows as the player does.
A lot I'd say. This whole controversy is evidence of that IMO.
Well yes, that was kinda my point. The abilities of the Unity Cleric were about the same as the Love one but were somehow worse to some people? Not really the point of the thread tho.
Anyways, as it stands, playing up the bonds of friendship that go beyond time and allowing each player to summon their boss monster from their deck or extra deck sounds like a decent space for the cleric to play in, has anyone used that kinda stuff yet?
For real tho, why not automatically getting the protection fighting style and actually shift the cleric into being a martial type?
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Okay, so the Love Domain got under a lot of people's skins, and then the reaction to it got under a lot of other people's skins. While I sided with those who wanted the problematic elements removed, I do understand a lot of the points made by those who thought we were over reacting.
So, much like that Wish Fulfillment, let's talk about what we could make a love cleric look like. No negativity or judgement. we're just looking to create something that a lot of us are fair certain won't come again anyway.
Perhaps call it the Eros Domain, clearly specifying love as madness, and let the class focus on Mental Manipulation being the offensive control cleric.
The duality and broad applicability of the original Love Domain was a big part of its appeal. The fact that it could use its powers for both Good and Less-Than-Good, as a given situation warranted. Love can be warm, empowering, an expression of the deepest bonds between people...or it can be intense, painful, even maddening. We've all been through being so into someone that we can't stop thinking about them, even if maybe we kinda want to, or don't want to feel that way about that person.
Retain the Emboldening Bond ability. It's excellent and a good example of how to mechanically implement a connection between two characters that strengthens them. Replace the channel divinity with
Channel Divinity: Maddening Infatuation
Whenever you cast a spell that causes a creature to become charmed, you may use your Channel Divinity to impose disadvantage on the saving throw of one target of that spell. If the chosen creature fails its save, in addition to the spell's normal effects, while charmed by the spell the creature becomes irresistibly infatuated with you. For the spell's duration the creature regards you in the best possible light and considers you an object of devotion and admiration, seeking to impress you and prove itself worthy of your affections in whatever way it sees fit. When taking an action that directly benefits you, the creature may roll 1d4 and add the result to any ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes to do so. The creature does not automatically follow your commands, though it may do as you ask if it believes doing so will impress you.
The creature will not kill itself, and it tries to avoid harming its allies if it is able. If you deal weapon or spell damage to the creature, this effect ends.
What This Does
First of all, it means any creature that's immune to being charmed is also immune to your Channel Divinity, which naturally arrests some of the otherwise worrisome potential for Ohh Pee Schitt.
Second of all, it makes the Love cleric pretty much the best character in the game at making use of the Charmed condition, which is something that I think we can all agree would fit.
Third of all, it allows the creature to retain control of its actions. Used on an ally, that ally is empowered with a permanent super Blessing for as long as the spell lasts as that ally strives to do their best to make you happy - however they want to. Used on an enemy, the enemy is allowed to act however the DM sees fit within the bounds of the ability. Whether that's turning on its allies because its fixation on you is stronger than its allegiance to people who may've abused it, whether that's giving you the best deal on a magic item you really want because the shop owner just loves you so much, or whether it backfires completely and the hobgoblin commander you've just beguiled does its best to murder everyone else in your party in a fit of yandere "YOU BELONG TO ME ALONE!" frenzy is all up to the DM.
Love can make you crazy. Sometimes not in ways anybody profits from.
Other Changes
Obviously this CD necessitates giving the Love domain back some charm spells. Charm Person at 1st and Charm Monster at 4th both seem essential. I'd also honestly say that Geas fits the legends this cleric emulates, and the idea behind it, frighteningly well, and I do mean frighteningly well. Given how long Geas can be made to last, a Love cleric casting Geas enhanced with Maddening Infatuation could be horrifying, potentially enough so to qualify as the charismatic villain of a campaign. Alternatively, it's an exceptionally powerful tool for players and a great narrative hook for DMs - the number of ways abusing Maddening Infatuation'd Geas could backfire on a party is infinite.
The rest of the Domain spells can be the more typical love-and-protect type. Warding Bond, Heroism, Aid perhaps, things like that. Not Ceremony, though. Ceremony is so damn specific and difficult to use that it's not really fair to saddle the cleric with that spell on a permanent basis. They can just prepare it in their normal rotation on a day where they're planning to marry people.
* * *
So. Is that any better?
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A sometimes common trope with "love potion type things" is that it isn't always the person administering the effect that benefits from it. You could possibly word the infatuation effect so that the target falls for the next person they encounter (so it isn't always you unless you do some clever maneuvering), or that it heightens their attraction towards things they're already attracted to (they don't find you attractive, but the wizard with their nose buried in a book is right up the target's alley).
You could also state these charming effects never force the target to do something uncomfortable (if the target is modest, or of high morale fiber, they don't step outside those boundaries). The effect should grease the wheels, not slip them a mickey, so to speak. The gods are only gifting you a motes of their being; leave the full on "I can't believe I did that sober" stuff to the higher powers.
Another thing the subclass could do is maybe wither relationships? To borrow from 7th Sea Fate Witches, maybe the cleric can strengthen, or weaken the bonds that already exist between people?
Gnome Armorist - Artificer Subclass Homebrew
What is in a name?
Personally, I think the best way to avoid the idea that a Love Cleric is gonna be one that focuses exclusively on a love that's in no way romantic. I think the bond mechanic as proposed is very strong for such a thing and a channel divinity might let you temporarily bond to more than one person. I do love a usage of mechanics that grows as the player does.
Well yes, that was kinda my point. The abilities of the Unity Cleric were about the same as the Love one but were somehow worse to some people? Not really the point of the thread tho.
Well, at least you're thinking about it.
Anyways, as it stands, playing up the bonds of friendship that go beyond time and allowing each player to summon their boss monster from their deck or extra deck sounds like a decent space for the cleric to play in, has anyone used that kinda stuff yet?
For real tho, why not automatically getting the protection fighting style and actually shift the cleric into being a martial type?