Action Surge + Light/Nick - Resolved

How does action surge work when combined with weapons with the light property and the nick mastery? Can this give a total of 4 attacks?

Action Surge: You can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action, except the Magic action. Once you use this feature, you can’t do so again until you finish a Short or Long Rest. Starting at level 17, you can use it twice before a rest but only once on a turn.

Light: When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don't add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.

Nick: When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Edit: How I see it, I have the following available during my turn:

• Action
• Action Surge = Action #2
• Bonus Action

Could I, for example, do the following:

1. Action: Attack with a Dagger and then a Shortsword as a single Action thanks to the Nick Mastery.
2. Action Surge = one extra Action: Attack with Dagger, the Light property grants me a Bonus Action.
3. Bonus Action: Attack with Shortsword.

This only uses the Nick Mastery once during this turn. And uses the Light ability twice.

I take 2 actions and 1 bonus action.

• Action 1 = 2 attacks
• Action 2 = 1 attack
• Bonus Action = 1 attack

Therefore, a total of 4 attacks.

Is this an oversight or the intention of the wording?

Edit 2: Thank you to everyone that was kind and patient.

I now believe that this is how Light + Nick + Action Surge works (I will use 3 separate Light weapons for clarity) (I am writing this is for people who didn't understand the rules, like me, so I will try to explain it as simply as I can to avoid misunderstandings. Please correct me if I am wrong, but do so kindly):

1. You use your Action to attack with a dagger, the Light property allows you to make an “Extra Attack” with a shortsword as a Bonus Action. 
   • Action: Attack with Dagger
   • Bonus Action: “Extra Attack” with Shortsword
2. The Nick Mastery moves the “Extra Attack” from the Bonus Action to the Action.
   • Action: Attack with Dagger and “Extra Attack” with Shortsword
   • Bonus Action: [empty]
3. Action Surge gives you 1 non-magic Action. You attack with a club. The club's Light property would normally grant an “Extra Attack” but ‘you can make this “Extra Attack” only once per turn’. You cannot have more than 1 “Extra Attack” during your turn, even though your Bonus Action is now empty. You already used your “Extra Attack” on your Action, therefore, cannot use a second “Extra Attack” on your Action Surge (or any other additional Action).
   • Action: Attack with Dagger and “Extra Attack” with Shortsword
   • Bonus Action: [empty]
   • Action Surge: Attack with Club
   • –End of turn–

The 2024 rules could definitely be written more clearly. (For example, calling the vague “Extra Attack” something clearer like the Light Attack.)

When Nick says “You can make this extra attack only once per turn”, it is saying that you cannot do another Light Attack on that turn even though your Bonus Action is now available.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

No, it can't. As stated in the Nick description, the extra attack from the Light property can only be made once per turn. Action Surge gives you an additional action, but it's still part of the same turn, so you can't make the Light attack again.

'This' is used to refer to previous instance, not some instance that occurs in a different paragraph of text a section earlier. So the only reasonable interpretation is that you can only use NIck once per turn, not that Nick imposes a limitation on the Light property. So you should be able to (in theory):

1. Attack Action. Make an attack with a Light weapon. Make an attack with the Nick property.
2. Action Boost Attack Action. Make an attack with a Light weapon.
3. Bonus Action. Make an attack using the Light property from #2.

In the normal rules of English, the part in blue references the entire concept of the attack - including the conditionals added after the comma. You can't just arbitrarily exclude necessary conditions attached to the idea. 'This' is referring to the attack that was moved into your Attack Action. It is the answer to the question "what is the Nick Attack?" not the answer to the question "what was the Nick Attack before it became the Nick Attack?".

Moreover, taken in the context of the rules, putting the "once per turn" limitation on Nick would be truly bizarre if your intent was for it to work the way you suggest. You would move that line to the description of the Light property.

 How I see it, I have the following available during my turn:

• Action
• Action Surge = Action #2
• Bonus Action

Could I, for example, do the following:

1. Action: Attack with a Dagger and then a Shortsword as a single Action thanks to the Nick Mastery.
2. Action Surge = one extra Action: Attack with Dagger, the Light property grants me a Bonus Action.
3. Bonus Action: Attack with Shortsword.

This only uses the Nick Mastery once during this turn. And uses the Light ability twice.

I take 2 actions and 1 bonus action.

• Action 1 = 2 attacks
• Action 2 = 1 attack
• Bonus Action = 1 attack

Therefore, a total of 4 attacks.

Is this an oversight or the intention of the wording?

My position is that what the Nick property says is that you can only modify your Light extra attack once per turn and the limitation in the text of Nick doesn't have any effect on an unrelated body of text elsewhere in the rules. "This extra attack" refer to the specific type of attack described in the previous sentence, not an unrelated extra attack described elsewhere.

The extra attack of the Light Property can only be made once per turn, regardless of Nick Mastery or additional action from Action Surge. 

This has been clarified in Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook | Dungeons & Dragons;

Nick

Example Weapon: Dagger

To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.

It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.

The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.

Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.

So for example you can effectively:

• Attack with Shortsword [Attack Action]
• Attack with Dagger [Nick Mastery]
• Attack with Dagger or Shortsword [Action Surge]

This leaves your Bonus Action free to do anything else except the extra Light Property since it already been made.

The guide doesn't support what you're claiming. What it actually says is that you can't make the same extra attack with both Nick and the Bonus Action. It's mute on what happens when you trigger the Light property multiple times.

The guide support that when saying ''Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack.''

If you  make the extra attack of the Light Property as apart of the  Attack action with Nick Mastery, making the extra attack of the Light Property as a Bonus Action as well would make a third attack which is that they say you can't.

The article say you only get one extra attack and Nick Mastery say you can make this extra attack only once per turn.

So i don't see a way to make the extra attack of the Light Property more than 1/turn this way.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

What the guide says is that you only get one attack for each time you trigger the Light property - which is the same as what the rules say. What Nick says is that you can only trigger the Nick effect once per turn. The guide isn't actually very informative because it's only detailing a specific example which doesn't actually touch on any of the issues we're discussing here (since it involves only a single attack during your Attack Action).

If the guide was saying that the Light property has a per turn limit it would say that. It doesn't. Nor do the actual rules.

Likewise, the once/turn limit on Nick is referencing Nick itself, not the Light property in general.

You can't just take a single clause out of context - especially when that clause contains references to the surrounding text.

When Nick Mastery say You can make this extra attack only once per turn, it refers to the extra attack of the Light property, not Nick effect.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

When Nick Mastery say You can make this extra attack only once per turn, it refers to the extra attack of the Light property, not Nick effect.

No, it refers to the Nick effect. Subjunctive clauses do not arbitrarily reach many paragraphs away. They refer to the closest reference.

You might consider that the entire Nick paragraph doesn't even exist until you've activated the Nick property. Just like every other mastery.

Thank you to everyone that was kind and patient.

I now believe that this is how Light + Nick + Action Surge works (I will use 3 separate Light weapons for clarity) (I am writing this is for people who didn't understand the rules, like me, so I will try to explain it as simply as I can to avoid misunderstandings. Please correct me if I am wrong, but do so kindly):

1. You use your Action to attack with a dagger, the Light property allows you to make an “Extra Attack” with a shortsword as a Bonus Action. 
   • Action: Attack with Dagger
   • Bonus Action: “Extra Attack” with Shortsword
2. The Nick Mastery moves the “Extra Attack” from the Bonus Action to the Action.
   • Action: Attack with Dagger and “Extra Attack” with Shortsword
   • Bonus Action: [empty]
3. Action Surge gives you 1 non-magic Action. You attack with a club. The club's Light property would normally grant an “Extra Attack” but ‘you can make this “Extra Attack” only once per turn’. You cannot have more than 1 “Extra Attack” during your turn, even though your Bonus Action is now empty. You already used your “Extra Attack” on your Action, therefore, cannot use a second “Extra Attack” on your Action Surge (or any other additional Action).
   • Action: Attack with Dagger and “Extra Attack” with Shortsword
   • Bonus Action: [empty]
   • Action Surge: Attack with Club
   • –End of turn–

The 2024 rules could definitely be written more clearly. (For example, calling the vague “Extra Attack” something clearer like the Light Attack.)

When Nick says “You can make this extra attack only once per turn”, it is saying that you cannot do another Light Attack on that turn even though your Bonus Action is now available.

I think the previous discussion resembles the discussion that took place in Is Dual Wielder Necessary?

In that thread, I left my own explanation of how Light and Nick work:

• The "extra attack only once per turn" in the Nick Mastery Property refers to the extra attack granted by the Light property. Nick doesn't provide a new extra attack; it shifts the extra attack of the Light property from a Bonus Action to an extra attack as part of the Attack action, and adds a restriction to it: "You can make this extra attack only once per turn".
• Because of the previous rule, if you use Nick, you can only make the Light property's extra attack once per turn.
• The Dual Wielder feat provides another source for a bonus action attack, separate from both Light and Nick.

Also, I shared this example written by SmiteMakesRight_3_5 related to Action Surge:

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from Paradox_Traveler >>

     RAW for both BA and Nick is once per turn, so unless you have a class or Species feature that allows  extra attacks for the attack action, the best one can accomplish is only 3 attacks even with DW.

      DW states one weapon has to be light, the other can be anything other than a two-handed weapon, and basically reuses the same wording as TWF from 2014. But thats the thing, you can’t use Nick twice, so your basically trying to use your BA twice, which by RAW is a no.

If you use a Nick Weapon, the extra attack no longer requires a bonus action. You are restricted to using one Bonus Action a turn.

I think I see a potential source of confusion. See if this clarifies things.

• Light gives you an extra attack.
  • If the Nick Mastery doesn't apply, you need to use a Bonus Action to make this attack and your Bonus Action is not available for other activities, such as the extra attack from Enhanced Dual Wielding.
  • If you are benefitting from Nick, this extra attack does not use a Bonus Action and it is available to use.
  • The once per round limit from Nick only applies to the extra attack from the Light Property and only that source of extra attacks.
  • Effectively the Light property with Nick reads like this:
    • "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action part of the same Attack action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You make this extra attack only once per turn.  For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative."
• Enhanced Dual Wielding gives you an extra attack.
  • this extra attack always requires that you use a Bonus Action to make the attack.
  • In order to make this extra attack, you must use the Attack and attack with a Light weapon, but it does not use or change the extra attack from the Light weapon property. Notice how Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property..." and Enhanced Dual Wielding says "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property...", Nick changes the behavior of the Light property, but Enhanced Dual Wielding gives you a separate source of an extra attack.
• Because Nick removes the Bonus Action requirement of the extra attack from the Light property, they can be combined.
  • A level 20 Fighter has 4 attacks per turn.
  • With a level 20 Fighter and the Nick Weapon Mastery, that becomes 5 attacks with an Attack action.
  • With a level 20 Fighter that has the Nick Mastery and using a Bonus Action for Enhanced Dual Wielding, that becomes 6 attacks per turn.
  • If the same Fighter uses an Action Surge, they can use an additional Attack action to get 4 more attacks (a total of 10) because Nick limited the extra attack from the Light weapon property to once per turn.

Does that help?

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

When Nick Mastery say You can make this extra attack only once per turn, it refers to the extra attack of the Light property, not Nick effect.

No, it refers to the Nick effect. Subjunctive clauses do not arbitrarily reach many paragraphs away. They refer to the closest reference.

You might consider that the entire Nick paragraph doesn't even exist until you've activated the Nick property. Just like every other mastery.

 There's no subjunctive clauses tha arbitrarily reach many paragraphs away, it refers to the senctence directly preceeding it, which is the closest reference.

Put in context, Nick Mastery exist in this perspective:

• When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. 
• When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Consider this:

Cleave: (description of how the Cleave extra attack works). You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Nick: (description of how the Nick extra attack works). You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

So we have two examples of abilities, in the same section, with the same format. In the first case, it's talking about what was just described in that section. In the second, you're claiming it's not talking about the extra attack that was just described but instead a completely different section elsewhere. That's akin to arguing that if I attack with my Halberd and use Cleave, I can no longer attack with my Halberd that turn.

Surely you can see why that interpretation looks absurd - you have to pretend half the text of the previous sentence simply doesn't exist and then try to rationalize some way to make sense of the rest of the paragraph.

The difference between Cleave and Nick Mastery is that only one of the two actually grant an extra attack, the other modifies an extra attack granted by a different game feature, which is the Light Property. 

That's why  Nick Mastery doesn't say it must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. Yet it still apply.

So when Nick Mastery say it and this, it refers to the extra attack of the Light Property. Yes it repeat the same sentence said in Cleave Mastery, but the major difference is the extra attack is from a different source in context:

Nick: You can make this* extra attack only once per turn. * = The extra attack of the Light Property.

Cleave: You can make this* extra attack only once per turn. * = The extra attack of the Cleave Mastery.

The 'extra attack' being reference is the extra attack modified by the Nick feature. You can't just ignore half of the previous sentence. In both cases, the restriction is on using the Weapon Mastery, not the underlying attacks that created the opportunity for the Weapon Mastery. This is how it works everywhere in the rules: when a feature says "you can only use this once per turn", they're talking about the specific feature being detailed, not features elsewhere that may be related.

Here Nick Mastery doesn't say ''You can ue this mastery only once per turn.''

What the mastery limit is the extra attack of the Light Property because it no longer is limited by the action econimy of Bonus Action itself when modified by Nick.