2024 Champion Fighter - Dual Wielder/ Thrown Weapon Master

Champion Fighter

I know... the most vanilla of subclasses is really potent now! How? Permanant Advantage and the extra Fighting Style

This build is doing something quite contentious, it is throwing as many Handaxes (Vex) as possible, then one Light Hammer (Nick). BUT only holding one weapon at a time with nothing in the other hand and so is able to benefit from:

• Dueling (+2 damage, per attack)
• Thrown Weapon Fighting (+2 damage, per attack)

• Two-Weapon Fighting (+ability mod, per turn)

Species: Bugbear, Background Feat: Alert

17 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha

This has been calculated with hit and crit chances vs the following enemy stats:

I have finished all my spreadsheet and so updated the post

I'm new DM why is the handaxe 3d6 ?

Guillaume 

This is crazy genious, congrats for the build. 

@LostApa: Bugbear does an additional 2d6 if you hit a creature with an attack who hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet.

The question I have is, after throwing 7 handaxes and a light hammer at the target, what are you carrying to fight with in round 2+? 

Quote from swamp_slug >>

The question I have is, after throwing 7 handaxes and a light hammer at the target, what are you carrying to fight with in round 2+? 

 Couldn't 2 levels of artificer with a returning weapon help out with this a bit?

Nick

When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Nick doesn't work like that. You just move the extra attack to the Action so that your Bonus Action is freed up for something other than an attack. It is as lame as unarmed strikes not counting as light weapons. However, you can use your Bonus Action for something else like a Second Wind or Quaffing a Potion since that is now a Bonus Action. 

2024 Dueling only work in melee. "Wielding one weapon" was changed to "Holding one weapon"

Thrown Weapon Fighting

Fighting Style Feat (Prerequisite: Fighting Style Feature)

When you hit with a ranged attack roll using a weapon that has the Thrown property, you gain a +2 bonus to the damage roll.

Thrown Weapon Fighting exists for just this reason. It is the same exact feat but for thrown weapons. Although I understand the logic you were employing Wagnarokkr because the action would naturally start with the player holding the weapon and then they would throw it. I believe the reason they created the Thrown Weapon style is because Dueling would pass the benefit to too many weapons and could lead to this exact confusion we're discussing.

No the question has already been answered so many times by game designers, duelling works with throwing weapon.
Thrown weapon fighting is actually less powerfull than before because now the auto get weapon is integrated in the thrown property.

Thown weapon fighting actually allow to add +2 dmg to DART which duelling does not.
Duelling allow the use of shield, while thrown can be applied to offhand too.
Its all a matter of choice. Because with dart u can have archery too.

Quote from nex_ou >>

No the question has already been answered so many times by game designers, duelling works with throwing weapon.
Thrown weapon fighting is actually less powerfull than before because now the auto get weapon is integrated in the thrown property.

Thown weapon fighting actually allow to add +2 dmg to DART which duelling does not.
Duelling allow the use of shield, while thrown can be applied to offhand too.
Its all a matter of choice. Because with dart u can have archery too.

 No, read the rules on Throw. The weapon becomes a Ranged weapon when used to throw and loses the Melee property unless it is being used in Melee. So, you can have both Feats but they only affect either the Melee or the Thrown property ergo if you take Duelist then you don't add the bonus when you throw the Dagger but you do when you attack making a Melee attack or vice versa if you take Throwing Weapons.

They wrote it out in the Thrown section of the Weapons chapter. On my phone or I'd link it be it specifically says that when you Thrown a weapon you make a ranged attack not a Melee one and the weapon becomes Ranged for the purpose of that attack - even on Weapons marked as Melee to distinguish that they can be thrown as a ranged weapon.

 You don't make a Melee attack when you Throw a weapon so it isn't Melee.

The way you have it Thrown Weapons are not even a Feat because the style literally does nothing at all. WotC did not just waste money on ink in three separate places in the book explaining this for no reason.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from nex_ou >>

No the question has already been answered so many times by game designers, duelling works with throwing weapon.
Thrown weapon fighting is actually less powerfull than before because now the auto get weapon is integrated in the thrown property.

Thown weapon fighting actually allow to add +2 dmg to DART which duelling does not.
Duelling allow the use of shield, while thrown can be applied to offhand too.
Its all a matter of choice. Because with dart u can have archery too.

 No, read the rules on Throw. The weapon becomes a Ranged weapon when used to throw and loses the Melee property unless it is being used in Melee. So, you can have both Feats but they only affect either the Melee or the Thrown property ergo if you take Duelist then you don't add the bonus when you throw the Dagger but you do when you attack making a Melee attack or vice versa if you take Throwing Weapons.

They wrote it out in the Thrown section of the Weapons chapter. On my phone or I'd link it be it specifically says that when you Thrown a weapon you make a ranged attack not a Melee one and the weapon becomes Ranged for the purpose of that attack - even on Weapons marked as Melee to distinguish that they can be thrown as a ranged weapon.

 You don't make a Melee attack when you Throw a weapon so it isn't Melee.

The way you have it Thrown Weapons are not even a Feat because the style literally does nothing at all. WotC did not just waste money on ink in three separate places in the book explaining this for no reason.

Nowhere in the definition of the Thrown property, in either the 2014 or 2024 Player's Handbook, does it say that the weapon "becomes a ranged weapon for the purpose of that attack". I'm looking at them both right now.

A thrown attack is a ranged attack, yes, but nothing says the weapon is now suddenly a ranged weapon.

Read the start of the Weapons chapter for Melee and Ranged Attacks, "A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5ft, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a greater distance.", if the attack on the target is outside of Melee then you aren't using a Melee weapon anymore it becomes Ranged.

If it helps think of it like Versatile. You don't get both Duelist and Great-Weapon Fighting. They don't stack. You can either use the Dueling advantage or the Great-Weapon Fighting depending on how you choose to attack with the weapon.

The Dueling only provides the benefit on Melee weapon as in a weapon used in Melee not Ranged ones.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from nex_ou >>

No the question has already been answered so many times by game designers, duelling works with throwing weapon.
Thrown weapon fighting is actually less powerfull than before because now the auto get weapon is integrated in the thrown property.

Thown weapon fighting actually allow to add +2 dmg to DART which duelling does not.
Duelling allow the use of shield, while thrown can be applied to offhand too.
Its all a matter of choice. Because with dart u can have archery too.

 No, read the rules on Throw. The weapon becomes a Ranged weapon when used to throw and loses the Melee property unless it is being used in Melee. So, you can have both Feats but they only affect either the Melee or the Thrown property ergo if you take Duelist then you don't add the bonus when you throw the Dagger but you do when you attack making a Melee attack or vice versa if you take Throwing Weapons.

They wrote it out in the Thrown section of the Weapons chapter. On my phone or I'd link it be it specifically says that when you Thrown a weapon you make a ranged attack not a Melee one and the weapon becomes Ranged for the purpose of that attack - even on Weapons marked as Melee to distinguish that they can be thrown as a ranged weapon.

 You don't make a Melee attack when you Throw a weapon so it isn't Melee.

The way you have it Thrown Weapons are not even a Feat because the style literally does nothing at all. WotC did not just waste money on ink in three separate places in the book explaining this for no reason.

Nowhere in the definition of the Thrown property, in either the 2014 or 2024 Player's Handbook, does it say that the weapon "becomes a ranged weapon for the purpose of that attack". I'm looking at them both right now.

A thrown attack is a ranged attack, yes, but nothing says the weapon is now suddenly a ranged weapon.

Read the start of the Weapons chapter for Melee and Ranged Attacks, "A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5ft, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a greater distance.", if the attack on the target is outside of Melee then you aren't using a Melee weapon anymore it becomes Ranged. 

It does say that, though that seems pretty clearly more about explaining what the terms "melee" and "ranged" mean, and it seems a really big stretch to say that it means that a melee weapon "becomes" a ranged weapon when you throw it. If that were the case, it would cause all manner of weird issues with other rules that use the term "ranged weapon".

It would also mean that this part of the definition of the Thrown property would be meaningless:

If the weapon is a Melee weapon, use the same ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls that you use for a melee attack with that weapon.

 

If a melee weapon becomes a ranged weapon when you throw it, then this sentence could never possibly apply and you always have to use Dexterity for the attack and damage rolls of thrown weapons.

I think the stretch is you making an Melee weapon attack from 20ft away.

If what you're throwing down (pun intended) is RAW then all Versatile weapons can stack both one and two handed Feats because it isn't explicitly stated that using a Versatile weapon in two hands nullifies the one handed abilities and you could switch your grip mid-strike or have some other rational for stacking benefits.

Don't be a munchkin and bullying your DM. You know that Ranged is not the same as Melee.

Edit: Also you unequip the weapon as part of the attack so it leaves your hand and is no longer Melee at the time of striking. Again same as Versatile, you choose One or Two Handed - Ranged or Melee.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from nex_ou >>

No the question has already been answered so many times by game designers, duelling works with throwing weapon.
Thrown weapon fighting is actually less powerfull than before because now the auto get weapon is integrated in the thrown property.

Thown weapon fighting actually allow to add +2 dmg to DART which duelling does not.
Duelling allow the use of shield, while thrown can be applied to offhand too.
Its all a matter of choice. Because with dart u can have archery too.

 No, read the rules on Throw. The weapon becomes a Ranged weapon when used to throw and loses the Melee property unless it is being used in Melee. So, you can have both Feats but they only affect either the Melee or the Thrown property ergo if you take Duelist then you don't add the bonus when you throw the Dagger but you do when you attack making a Melee attack or vice versa if you take Throwing Weapons.

They wrote it out in the Thrown section of the Weapons chapter. On my phone or I'd link it be it specifically says that when you Thrown a weapon you make a ranged attack not a Melee one and the weapon becomes Ranged for the purpose of that attack - even on Weapons marked as Melee to distinguish that they can be thrown as a ranged weapon.

 You don't make a Melee attack when you Throw a weapon so it isn't Melee.

The way you have it Thrown Weapons are not even a Feat because the style literally does nothing at all. WotC did not just waste money on ink in three separate places in the book explaining this for no reason.

Nowhere in the definition of the Thrown property, in either the 2014 or 2024 Player's Handbook, does it say that the weapon "becomes a ranged weapon for the purpose of that attack". I'm looking at them both right now.

A thrown attack is a ranged attack, yes, but nothing says the weapon is now suddenly a ranged weapon.

Read the start of the Weapons chapter for Melee and Ranged Attacks, "A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5ft, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a greater distance.", if the attack on the target is outside of Melee then you aren't using a Melee weapon anymore it becomes Ranged. 

It does say that, though that seems pretty clearly more about explaining what the terms "melee" and "ranged" mean, and it seems a really big stretch to say that it means that a melee weapon "becomes" a ranged weapon when you throw it. If that were the case, it would cause all manner of weird issues with other rules that use the term "ranged weapon".

It would also mean that this part of the definition of the Thrown property would be meaningless:

If the weapon is a Melee weapon, use the same ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls that you use for a melee attack with that weapon.

 

If a melee weapon becomes a ranged weapon when you throw it, then this sentence could never possibly apply and you always have to use Dexterity for the attack and damage rolls of thrown weapons.

I think the stretch is you making an Melee weapon attack from 20ft away.

If what you're throwing down (pun intended) is RAW then all Versatile weapons can stack both one and two handed Feats because it isn't explicitly stated that using a Versatile weapon in two hands nullifies the one handed abilities and you could switch your grip mid-strike or have some other rational for stacking benefits.

Don't be a munchkin and bullying your DM. You know that Ranged is not the same as Melee.

 

Edit: Also you unequip the weapon as part of the attack so it leaves your hand and is no longer Melee at the time of striking. Again same as Versatile, you choose One or Two Handed - Ranged or Melee.

No one is saying you can make a melee attack from 20 feet away. No one is saying whatever that is you said about Versatile weapons that had nothing to do with what I'm talking about. 

All I said was that a melee weapon does not become a ranged weapon just because you made a ranged attack with it. The type of attack is a separate thing from the type of weapon. You can make melee attacks with ranged weapons (e.g., hitting someone with a bow) and you can make ranged attacks with melee weapons (e.g., throwing them at someone). "Melee weapon" and "ranged weapon" describe the use the weapon was designed for. "Melee attack" and "ranged attack" describe what you are doing with the weapon.

Alright so all Reach weapons can now be used as Ranged weapons gaining the benefits of Dex instead of Strength because the wording reads that Melee attacks are 5ft and Reach doesn't say that the attack remains Melee it just says you have an extra 5ft range.

All Versatile weapons can be used with shields but they gain the benefit of Duel Wielder on all Versatile weapons and can switch to the two handed grip for the bonus action attack because Versatile weapons don't have the Two-Handed Property and Duel Wielder just restricts weapons with the Two-Handed Property and not all weapons wielded with two hands.

Let's see, how else can we abuse the rules to our benefit. If your table does this then that's cool but I wouldn't because it takes away from everyone else at the table, is questionable, and in those two ways distracting from the adventure. If I did accept it then I would start using similar shady rulings as a DM against you. I don't really see that as a fun game, but if that is your table and playing aggressively against everyone else at the table like that is how you play then have at it!

Respectfully, you’re wrong. Throwing a dagger does not make it a ranged weapon, if that were the case you would apply the sharpshooter feat; which we all know is not allowed. Much like how you can not apply sharpshooter to a javelin or spear, they are melee weapons being thrown in range. You’re definitely overthinking the rules, the arguments aren’t necessary. 

Okay, then now I don't understand other weapon features like Reach and Versatile. Since like the thrown option they add a different use case to the weapon which can trigger an additional feat set also.

I am going to start to use two-handed weapon Feats while using a long sword in one hand. The verbiage is that the weapon just needs to be held two-handed not that I need to be attacking with it in both hands for those Feats to work.

I really hope they build the MM around these metas to nullify all of it. The mental gymnastics of picking and choosing what rules we want to follow and which ones we don't are out of this world.

You're making a Ranged attack not a Melee one when throwing a Dagger. Same as Versatile, you're either making a one or two handed attack and how you attack dictates which Feats or abilities become active.

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from nex_ou >>

No the question has already been answered so many times by game designers, duelling works with throwing weapon.

 No, read the rules on Throw. The weapon becomes a Ranged weapon when used to throw and loses the Melee property unless it is being used in Melee.

 You don't make a Melee attack when you Throw a weapon so it isn't Melee.

 
I'm not gonna repeat myself. You're confusing the old 2014 ruling which was unprecise with "weapon" and "attacks" as a restriction, and the designation they made for 2024.
There is no way a throwed weapon becomes ranged, cause you would have to use dex throwing handaxe. And I highly doubt they would allow that for barbarian :).
You're still making a ranged attack with a melee weapon using a sub specific ruling. That did not change.
You don't change the general rules to make it stick to ur uderstanding of a specification. Cause it messes up elsewhere like the barbarian dex handaxe for eg.

Quote from nex_ou >>

Quote from heydanseegil >>

Quote from nex_ou >>

No the question has already been answered so many times by game designers, duelling works with throwing weapon.

 No, read the rules on Throw. The weapon becomes a Ranged weapon when used to throw and loses the Melee property unless it is being used in Melee.

 You don't make a Melee attack when you Throw a weapon so it isn't Melee.

 
I'm not gonna repeat myself. You're confusing the old 2014 ruling which was unprecise with "weapon" and "attacks" as a restriction, and the designation they made for 2024.
There is no way a throwed weapon becomes ranged, cause you would have to use dex throwing handaxe. And I highly doubt they would allow that for barbarian :).
You're still making a ranged attack with a melee weapon using a sub specific ruling. That did not change.
You don't change the general rules to make it stick to ur uderstanding of a specification. Cause it messes up elsewhere like the barbarian dex handaxe for eg.

They updated the rules recently due to abuse like this advising players not to meta etc. You're welcome to run it that way at the table but it isn't RAW.

Throwing a handaxe is a ranged attack that uses Dex not Str (Look up D20 Tests > Attack Rolls > Ability Modifier > Attack Roll Abilities).

Note that Strength is used for "Melee attack with a weapon...", Dexterity is used for "Ranged attack with a weapon".

Pick up anything, and swing it, it is a melee weapon for that attack. Pick up anything and throw it, it is a ranged weapon for that attack.

Just because the list of weapons is organized into sections called Melee and Ranged doesn't mean that everything listed under Melee is always a "Melee Weapon" and those listed under Ranged are always "Ranged Weapons". There are Melee weapons with the Thrown tag, and you can always club someone with that nice fragile bow.

It is how it is used. If you're throwing it, you benefit from those things that affect ranged attacks. If you are swinging/poking with it, then you benefit from those things affecting melee attacks.

It isn't from the weapon, it's how you use that weapon on that particular round.

A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. Wether you make a emelee or ranged attack with it doesn't change that unless noted otherwise like the Hoopak for example.