Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but I was wondering what you thought the final form would be for Tasha's release. I noticed that the early reveals from some of the other subclasses like the genie warlock were not much different than the last UA forms. Do you think the rune knight will make it more or less intact? I'm particularly concerned about giant might staying at 3rd level. I was going to pitch the idea of a rune knight to my GM as long as it wouldn't change much on release.
It's hard to say, as a lot of the feedback is private/internal, we don't really know what changes might occur unless a new UA version of the class comes out; the fact that one hasn't may be a good sign that it won't change drastically but really it's anyone's guess.
As to whether Giant's Might may be dropped, that's a tough one; pure spellcasters at 3rd level can cast Enlarge/Reduce twice per long rest, but compared to that Giant's Strength doesn't require concentration, can't be dispelled (or counterspelled) and gives a better damage bonus, so it's actually quite a strong feature, and it's on top of knowing two runes (which grant passive bonuses and can be used once each per short rest). The interesting thing about Giant's Might and Enlarge is that being Large isn't necessarily a benefit most of the time; since it's time limited you gain limited bonus from double carry/lift/push weight, occupying a 10 foot square means more enemies can attack you (and you may obstruct allies), and you can no longer squeeze through Small gaps, and have to crouch in Medium environments (building and such) for half movement, you will also find it harder to get into cover. Your DM may also use your size in target priority, making you more likely to take the nastiest attacks enemies have to offer by being literally the biggest threat in the room.
I doubt it will be dropped entirely, but I'd maybe expect it to be reduced to d4 damage in line with Enlarge, as that's already a big boost, especially for a Fighter who gets the most basic attacks (and can Action Surge while enlarged for even more), and can be Enlarged in addition to using Giant's Might. In fact, on that point I wouldn't be surprised if they replaced it with "cast Enlarge on yourself without requiring concentration", which would limit some of the potential for abuse. I'd say you'll definitely still have Giant's Might in some form, it just may be toned down in ways that shouldn't make a difference if you're using it as intended (for solo hulk smash moments).
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I agree with the points above. Giant Might should be a core feature, but should be put on par with Enlarge spell.
I would like some reviews in the Runes as well because most of them need to be activated with bonus action and generates lots of conflicts. You will need at least 3 turns of setup to get Giant Might, damage resistance and STR bonus runes on — most of these benefits are granted with one bonus action for Rage Barbarian.
I'm mainly interested in giant might because of the grappling implications. It circumvents many of the issues grapplers have. Thanks for the insight. I guess I'll have to wait a bit longer.
I can't imagine them getting rid of Giant Might, it's a core feature of the class in the UA version. A subclass whose lore is based on Giants without the ability to grow larger? Never :)
My guess is the Runes will lose the active effects. At least until later levels. As is the subclass gets way way too much early on. They get 2/3 rage, short rest ability, and passive advantage on 4 skills at 3rd.
Overall I think if you remove the short rest abilities then you have a good balance.
I hope it doesn’t change too much as I’m just starting a character now.
I actually think the most powerful things are the always on passive abilities that come with the runes... like getting expertise on all tool proficiencies
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My guess is the Runes will lose the active effects. At least until later levels. As is the subclass gets way way too much early on. They get 2/3 rage, short rest ability, and passive advantage on 4 skills at 3rd.
Overall I think if you remove the short rest abilities then you have a good balance.
Except you only get two runes at 3rd level, so while you have lots of strong choices to pick from you don't get overloaded with abilities. My Rune Knight is currently at 5th level and he hasn't felt overpowered compared to the rest of the party.
The minor bonus on each Rune is fine. As I mentioned above, main issue for me is that most of the Runes requires a bonus action or a reaction to be activated. This conflicts with Giant Might and turns some classic Fighter feats (PAM, GWM, Shield Master, XBE) somehow not so good.
The minor bonus on each Rune is fine. As I mentioned above, main issue for me is that most of the Runes requires a bonus action or a reaction to be activated. This conflicts with Giant Might and turns some classic Fighter feats (PAM, GWM, Shield Master, XBE) somehow not so good.
Shaking players out of the habits they've developed is not a bad thing in my mind. And I say this as a guy currently playing a dual-wielding Rune Knight who's already got a consistent use for his Bonus Action. Of the six runes, two use your Reaction to invoke and one you invoke when you it something, leaving three runes that use your Bonus Action to invoke. Of those three, the Frost Rune lasts for 10 minutes, so if you have even a moment's warning before starting a fight you can trigger it pre-combat. And yes, there's also Giant Might using your Bonus Action, but you only get two of those a day. Granted I'm only at Level 5 so I've only got two runes to play with so far, but I'm enjoying the heck out of it. So maybe deciding when to invoke each rune will get a bit fiddly later on when I have more of them, but I'm not worried I won't be able to use ALL THE THINGS in a fight. I prefer to see it as having plenty of cool stuff to choose from. I don't know if it's one of the more mathematically powerful Fighter subclasses(and I'm not interested in trying to do that math), but it's one of the most FUN that I've had experience with. Plus, it inspired a backstory for my character that I really like, and that our Dungeon Master has made a major part of the story in these early levels. We've had subclasses(both official and playtest) that explore dragons, fiends, undead, celestials, fey, elementals, even aberrations, it's nice to see the giants get some love too. :)
My guess is the Runes will lose the active effects. At least until later levels. As is the subclass gets way way too much early on. They get 2/3 rage, short rest ability, and passive advantage on 4 skills at 3rd.
Overall I think if you remove the short rest abilities then you have a good balance.
Except you only get two runes at 3rd level, so while you have lots of strong choices to pick from you don't get overloaded with abilities. My Rune Knight is currently at 5th level and he hasn't felt overpowered compared to the rest of the party.
I respectfully disagree as it gets FAR more than any other fighter at 3rd level.
With two rune choices you get 4 passive effects which range from not very useful (Advantage on Tool checks) to pretty impactful (ADV on 4 skills).
The runes bestow a short rest ability that ranges from good (Move a crit on you to another creature) to down right broken (Use your reaction to impose disadvantage on a SAVING THROW as much as you like for 1 minute). The latter is very much broken as a Sorcerer using heighten metamagic has to spend ALL of their sorcery points to impose disadvantage on the spell once at this level and the SP only reset on a LONG rest. A fighter with this rune can do it 10 times and the ability refreshes on a SHORT rest meaning that they can likely do it up to 30 times per day which is just staggering.
You also get Giant Might which is a Long Rest ability that gives great combat ability that bestows 2/3rd of rage. With the hill giant rune you basically have rage as a fighter which is very very very good in of itself not to mention the additional benefits from the runes.
Overall its pretty over tuned (Most UA is so that's fair) but I really hope it has some significant changes in the printed version.
I really hope they don't change it much at all. I'm always disappointed whenever it happens, especially when it nerfs things that actually feel impactful. I really like this sub-class; it was refreshing to see an option for fighters that felt like it accomplished something (besides Battle Master).
Wait is this true?!? All of them? I am literally starting a Rune Knight character this Thursday at lv10 with 20 INT, I may have to ask my DM if I can change my stats around a bit before he joins (last character died)
From the leaks they really didn't change much except you can't take hill or storm until 7th level and the abilities proc off CON now instead of INT
Ugh. Delaying the abilities just sucks the life out of it, for me. Yet another situation where you're given an ability that was generally only primarily useful against the antagonists of three levels earlier...
I guess I can always just hang onto my character with the UA version, though I don't know if it will let me level him. I recall I'd rolled up a UA warforged, the eberron book came out, and I was able to access him but when I switched classes around I wasn't able to go back to the UA version. Here's hoping.
To be fair, looking at what has been leaked (which as I have preorder it I feel fine about), there are a lot of quality of life improvements that make the switch worth it - the two most key for me being frost rune being +2 to str and con saves and ability checks (makes grappling even stronger) and Giant Growth changed from 2/long rest to proficiency/long rest. Well worth refocussing my ASIs into Con on my upcoming character (which will be helpful anyway, a nice 133hp at lv10).
From the leaks they really didn't change much except you can't take hill or storm until 7th level and the abilities proc off CON now instead of INT
Ugh. Delaying the abilities just sucks the life out of it, for me. Yet another situation where you're given an ability that was generally only primarily useful against the antagonists of three levels earlier...
I guess I can always just hang onto my character with the UA version, though I don't know if it will let me level him. I recall I'd rolled up a UA warforged, the eberron book came out, and I was able to access him but when I switched classes around I wasn't able to go back to the UA version. Here's hoping.
I haven't seen anything about Giant Might being PB/Long Rest in the official version, that strikes me as too powerful. I don't mind the Storm rune being delayed until Level 7, mini-Foresight is awfully powerful(having used it myself to WRECK my DM), but the Hill rune strikes me as an odd one to do that with. I'm also kinda bummed they changed the DC stat from Int to Con, but I can go with it.
Yeah, I can recall folks criticising the int-based stuff as stretching them away from the core fighter attributes. I wouldn't mind the switch to con. And I guess I don't play often enough for it to matter much if the giant's might was more or fewer times per day.
Losing that hill rune wrecks things for me though. Finally feel like I can stand in front for awhile, really be a force. I know it steps on the barbarian toes a bit, but it's not as often and it's not as much.
Yeah, I can recall folks criticising the int-based stuff as stretching them away from the core fighter attributes. I wouldn't mind the switch to con. And I guess I don't play often enough for it to matter much if the giant's might was more or fewer times per day.
Losing that hill rune wrecks things for me though. Finally feel like I can stand in front for awhile, really be a force. I know it steps on the barbarian toes a bit, but it's not as often and it's not as much.
Actually it was once per short rest so by average standards you would be getting it twice a day which is pretty close to how many times barbarian gets it at 3rd level (3).
I think the changes balanced it nicely. Giant Might gives a 1d6 once per turn instead of all hits which was kind of crazy considering the number of attacks fighters get and it can stack with other sources of additional d6s (Hex, hunters mark, etc...)
Storm rune is still a little crazy for my tastes (DIS on a spell save using a Reaction) every turn for up to 10 turns is very very good. A sorcerer has to spend 3 SP to force DIS once as part of heightened metamagic. So at 7th level a sorcerer can do it twice per day with their SP. A fighter can do it up to 10 times per short rest.
Overall moving it 7th level makes it much more reasonable to me....but still one of the best combos in the game with casters. Hold Person saves at DIS for 10 rounds can just turn a fight into a cake walk easy as you can just run in and crit storm on them.
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Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but I was wondering what you thought the final form would be for Tasha's release. I noticed that the early reveals from some of the other subclasses like the genie warlock were not much different than the last UA forms. Do you think the rune knight will make it more or less intact? I'm particularly concerned about giant might staying at 3rd level. I was going to pitch the idea of a rune knight to my GM as long as it wouldn't change much on release.
It's hard to say, as a lot of the feedback is private/internal, we don't really know what changes might occur unless a new UA version of the class comes out; the fact that one hasn't may be a good sign that it won't change drastically but really it's anyone's guess.
As to whether Giant's Might may be dropped, that's a tough one; pure spellcasters at 3rd level can cast Enlarge/Reduce twice per long rest, but compared to that Giant's Strength doesn't require concentration, can't be dispelled (or counterspelled) and gives a better damage bonus, so it's actually quite a strong feature, and it's on top of knowing two runes (which grant passive bonuses and can be used once each per short rest). The interesting thing about Giant's Might and Enlarge is that being Large isn't necessarily a benefit most of the time; since it's time limited you gain limited bonus from double carry/lift/push weight, occupying a 10 foot square means more enemies can attack you (and you may obstruct allies), and you can no longer squeeze through Small gaps, and have to crouch in Medium environments (building and such) for half movement, you will also find it harder to get into cover. Your DM may also use your size in target priority, making you more likely to take the nastiest attacks enemies have to offer by being literally the biggest threat in the room.
I doubt it will be dropped entirely, but I'd maybe expect it to be reduced to d4 damage in line with Enlarge, as that's already a big boost, especially for a Fighter who gets the most basic attacks (and can Action Surge while enlarged for even more), and can be Enlarged in addition to using Giant's Might. In fact, on that point I wouldn't be surprised if they replaced it with "cast Enlarge on yourself without requiring concentration", which would limit some of the potential for abuse. I'd say you'll definitely still have Giant's Might in some form, it just may be toned down in ways that shouldn't make a difference if you're using it as intended (for solo hulk smash moments).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I agree with the points above. Giant Might should be a core feature, but should be put on par with Enlarge spell.
I would like some reviews in the Runes as well because most of them need to be activated with bonus action and generates lots of conflicts. You will need at least 3 turns of setup to get Giant Might, damage resistance and STR bonus runes on — most of these benefits are granted with one bonus action for Rage Barbarian.
I'm mainly interested in giant might because of the grappling implications. It circumvents many of the issues grapplers have. Thanks for the insight. I guess I'll have to wait a bit longer.
I can't imagine them getting rid of Giant Might, it's a core feature of the class in the UA version. A subclass whose lore is based on Giants without the ability to grow larger? Never :)
My guess is the Runes will lose the active effects. At least until later levels. As is the subclass gets way way too much early on. They get 2/3 rage, short rest ability, and passive advantage on 4 skills at 3rd.
Overall I think if you remove the short rest abilities then you have a good balance.
I hope it doesn’t change too much as I’m just starting a character now.
I actually think the most powerful things are the always on passive abilities that come with the runes... like getting expertise on all tool proficiencies
Except you only get two runes at 3rd level, so while you have lots of strong choices to pick from you don't get overloaded with abilities. My Rune Knight is currently at 5th level and he hasn't felt overpowered compared to the rest of the party.
The minor bonus on each Rune is fine. As I mentioned above, main issue for me is that most of the Runes requires a bonus action or a reaction to be activated. This conflicts with Giant Might and turns some classic Fighter feats (PAM, GWM, Shield Master, XBE) somehow not so good.
See, I like that it lends itself to a different play-style and actually having to make decisions.
Shaking players out of the habits they've developed is not a bad thing in my mind. And I say this as a guy currently playing a dual-wielding Rune Knight who's already got a consistent use for his Bonus Action. Of the six runes, two use your Reaction to invoke and one you invoke when you it something, leaving three runes that use your Bonus Action to invoke. Of those three, the Frost Rune lasts for 10 minutes, so if you have even a moment's warning before starting a fight you can trigger it pre-combat. And yes, there's also Giant Might using your Bonus Action, but you only get two of those a day. Granted I'm only at Level 5 so I've only got two runes to play with so far, but I'm enjoying the heck out of it. So maybe deciding when to invoke each rune will get a bit fiddly later on when I have more of them, but I'm not worried I won't be able to use ALL THE THINGS in a fight. I prefer to see it as having plenty of cool stuff to choose from. I don't know if it's one of the more mathematically powerful Fighter subclasses(and I'm not interested in trying to do that math), but it's one of the most FUN that I've had experience with. Plus, it inspired a backstory for my character that I really like, and that our Dungeon Master has made a major part of the story in these early levels. We've had subclasses(both official and playtest) that explore dragons, fiends, undead, celestials, fey, elementals, even aberrations, it's nice to see the giants get some love too. :)
I respectfully disagree as it gets FAR more than any other fighter at 3rd level.
With two rune choices you get 4 passive effects which range from not very useful (Advantage on Tool checks) to pretty impactful (ADV on 4 skills).
The runes bestow a short rest ability that ranges from good (Move a crit on you to another creature) to down right broken (Use your reaction to impose disadvantage on a SAVING THROW as much as you like for 1 minute). The latter is very much broken as a Sorcerer using heighten metamagic has to spend ALL of their sorcery points to impose disadvantage on the spell once at this level and the SP only reset on a LONG rest. A fighter with this rune can do it 10 times and the ability refreshes on a SHORT rest meaning that they can likely do it up to 30 times per day which is just staggering.
You also get Giant Might which is a Long Rest ability that gives great combat ability that bestows 2/3rd of rage. With the hill giant rune you basically have rage as a fighter which is very very very good in of itself not to mention the additional benefits from the runes.
Overall its pretty over tuned (Most UA is so that's fair) but I really hope it has some significant changes in the printed version.
I really hope they don't change it much at all. I'm always disappointed whenever it happens, especially when it nerfs things that actually feel impactful. I really like this sub-class; it was refreshing to see an option for fighters that felt like it accomplished something (besides Battle Master).
From the leaks they really didn't change much except you can't take hill or storm until 7th level and the abilities proc off CON now instead of INT
Wait is this true?!? All of them? I am literally starting a Rune Knight character this Thursday at lv10 with 20 INT, I may have to ask my DM if I can change my stats around a bit before he joins (last character died)
Ugh. Delaying the abilities just sucks the life out of it, for me. Yet another situation where you're given an ability that was generally only primarily useful against the antagonists of three levels earlier...
I guess I can always just hang onto my character with the UA version, though I don't know if it will let me level him. I recall I'd rolled up a UA warforged, the eberron book came out, and I was able to access him but when I switched classes around I wasn't able to go back to the UA version. Here's hoping.
To be fair, looking at what has been leaked (which as I have preorder it I feel fine about), there are a lot of quality of life improvements that make the switch worth it - the two most key for me being frost rune being +2 to str and con saves and ability checks (makes grappling even stronger) and Giant Growth changed from 2/long rest to proficiency/long rest. Well worth refocussing my ASIs into Con on my upcoming character (which will be helpful anyway, a nice 133hp at lv10).
I haven't seen anything about Giant Might being PB/Long Rest in the official version, that strikes me as too powerful. I don't mind the Storm rune being delayed until Level 7, mini-Foresight is awfully powerful(having used it myself to WRECK my DM), but the Hill rune strikes me as an odd one to do that with. I'm also kinda bummed they changed the DC stat from Int to Con, but I can go with it.
Yeah, I can recall folks criticising the int-based stuff as stretching them away from the core fighter attributes. I wouldn't mind the switch to con. And I guess I don't play often enough for it to matter much if the giant's might was more or fewer times per day.
Losing that hill rune wrecks things for me though. Finally feel like I can stand in front for awhile, really be a force. I know it steps on the barbarian toes a bit, but it's not as often and it's not as much.
Actually it was once per short rest so by average standards you would be getting it twice a day which is pretty close to how many times barbarian gets it at 3rd level (3).
I think the changes balanced it nicely. Giant Might gives a 1d6 once per turn instead of all hits which was kind of crazy considering the number of attacks fighters get and it can stack with other sources of additional d6s (Hex, hunters mark, etc...)
Storm rune is still a little crazy for my tastes (DIS on a spell save using a Reaction) every turn for up to 10 turns is very very good. A sorcerer has to spend 3 SP to force DIS once as part of heightened metamagic. So at 7th level a sorcerer can do it twice per day with their SP. A fighter can do it up to 10 times per short rest.
Overall moving it 7th level makes it much more reasonable to me....but still one of the best combos in the game with casters. Hold Person saves at DIS for 10 rounds can just turn a fight into a cake walk easy as you can just run in and crit storm on them.