Ok, so I have a character concept from third edition that looks like the concept can't be recreated in 5e unless I am missing something.
the idea is a character who is strong, his best state is strength and quick, next best is Dex. Preferably at least an 18 STR and a 16 DEX if the dice guides smile on him.
The concept is the character is a former slave who won his freedom by training as a gladiator or who just escaped bondage using the Ancient Roman motiff I guess. The character is a Fighter and a Thief, alternating equal levels in each class up the progression. He is a pugilist so he has the ability to do damage with unarmed strikes (which I can emulate in 5e through a feats and class ability as a fighter either way. He also uses a spiked chain which I guess would just be redefined as a flail in this game as an exotic gladiator type weapon.
The issue is on the rogue side. As I understand it the rogue can only use sneak attack with a finesse weapon with melee (or ranged which is not at issue) which are only Daggers, Shortswords, Scimitars, Rapiers, Dart (used in melee I guess or is this the only ranged weapon you can use sneak with - not sure).
Unarmed is not listed as a weapon in the list. The feats or abilities that give you unarmed damage say nothing about them being finesse or not so I assume that it is not because otherwise it has to say so.
The point of the character in 3e was he used Improved Feint to get advantage to allow the sneak attack with his unarmed strike (sucker punching if you will). Character mostly used his hands to fight but used the spiked chain for reach, Not worried about that, can use the flail but no sneak attack is there. I can simulate this in 5e sort of by taking the Swashbuckler archetype which allows sneak attack when fighting an enemy with no target around i,e, alone which works because his stick was fighting professionally aka a medieval version of the WWE wrestler.
The sneak attack damage was useful for knocking foes unconscious because although you had the ability to do real damage with weapons you could still do subdual. It seems though that the only way to get sneak damage is stabbing or slashing someone.
Unless there is a feat or ability I am missing that can make an unarmed strike a finesse weapon I guess this concept can't be made in 5e.
Honestly 5e's weapon list is way too short. Are they planning to ever expand on it.
Unarmed strikes do not qualify for sneak attack and there isn’t a way to make them finesse. They did this on purpose as the monk class has, in all but name, finesse with unarmed strikes and monk weapons. But since they are not actually finesse (unarmed strikes are not a weapon so can’t have a weapon property. Although they do count as a melee weapon attack) they can’t be used to sneak attack.
The whip has finesse and reach so that might work better reflavored as your spiked chain. And let’s face it, for rogues the main point of their weapons is as a vehicle to deliver sneak attack damage.
Problem is the whip is a slashing weapon and not bludgeoning.
There is no finesse weapon that does bludgeoning damage.
This is why I also ask if they are going to expand on this. I mean brass knuckles, gauntlets, there are so many actual weapons not defined that just don't fit in this.
Plus as a former slave the character would hate whips and refuse to use them. The spiked chain worked because it was just a piece of chain he found and added barbs to when he first went into the arena but eventually leaned showmanship with it. The fighter archetype is champion and the background gladiator so everything I have is in place except the ability to coild cock somebody and knock them unconscious.
I really got to say I am unimpressed with the way they just wholesale removed options entirely.
I guess we are supposed to create our own in homebrew. There should be a feat you can take that turns an unarmed strike into a finesse weapon and one you can take without having to be a monk. HEMA had very robust hand to hand techniques. - Oh Well!
As a rough idea: Use a sling, its ranged and then qualifies for sneak attack at range but then see if you can agree a home brew with your DM of "Slapjack" where you can use the laoded sling in melee as a finesse bludgeoning weapon, damage wise its in line with a dagger so should be ok. Failing that you could use a sling and the crossbow expert feat to be able to fire it in melee and then just flavour that as the slapjack attack.
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You can always ask if the DM would be okay with reflavoring a rapier as a spiked chain and a dagger as unarmed strike perhaps. The concept could be emulated with the same damage bench.
You can always ask if the DM would be okay with reflavoring a rapier as a spiked chain and a dagger as unarmed strike perhaps. The concept could be emulated with the same damage bench.
Seconded, DM permission is the only way this would work
In general the base idea of 5e seems to be its simplicity and limit options where are 3e focus was to have many options. They are very different games IMHO even though they use the same basic game foundations (6 stats, d20, etc).
In general your idea would work better a rogue monk and home brew some rules.
Problem is the whip is a slashing weapon and not bludgeoning.
There is no finesse weapon that does bludgeoning damage.
This is why I also ask if they are going to expand on this. I mean brass knuckles, gauntlets, there are so many actual weapons not defined that just don't fit in this.
Plus as a former slave the character would hate whips and refuse to use them. The spiked chain worked because it was just a piece of chain he found and added barbs to when he first went into the arena but eventually leaned showmanship with it. The fighter archetype is champion and the background gladiator so everything I have is in place except the ability to coild cock somebody and knock them unconscious.
I really got to say I am unimpressed with the way they just wholesale removed options entirely.
I guess we are supposed to create our own in homebrew. There should be a feat you can take that turns an unarmed strike into a finesse weapon and one you can take without having to be a monk. HEMA had very robust hand to hand techniques. - Oh Well!
Sorry if I missed on the need for the spiked chain as bludgeoning, it has barbs so thought slashing would be fine. The whip was just for the mechanics and flavoring would provide the rest.
And I think it kind of makes sense for bludgeoning weapons not to have finesse.
And agree all this would be up to the DM so work with them to see if you can bring your vision to the table. But 5E isn’t 3E so there has to be some give and take.
Yeah but a Monk is not a Thug and a former slave would lean roguish things like how to pick the lock on his cell door, how to deceive the guards, how to interpret people's response to gain insight into what they are saying etc. that are all the province of a rogue. Monk levels change the core concept of the character so to my mind do not work.
Spike chain was really more for show in a gladiator arena, the main focus of how the character hurt someone would be his unarmed martial prowess. Spiked chain was 3e but it is not necessary to the concept, we could easily describe it in a fashion that is a spiked chain and use the states for a flail from the book. It is only used essentially for dramatic license in the areas as a show anyway.
It's homebrew, but "changing the damage type of a weapon" is so unobtrusive that I can't imagine any DM would have a problem with it, so my suggestion is to just use a dagger, change it to bludgeoning damage, and call it a blackjack, to give you the "sneaking up and knocking people out like in the Thief games" vibe. Or just use an actual dagger and call it bladed knuckles or something. Weapon damage type doesn't actually matter except when fighting against a very specific and very tiny subset of monsters.
Yeah but a Monk is not a Thug and a former slave would lean roguish things like how to pick the lock on his cell door, how to deceive the guards, how to interpret people's response to gain insight into what they are saying etc. that are all the province of a rogue. Monk levels change the core concept of the character so to my mind do not work.
There are many types of monks, ninja might be a earth based example and if you distill the idea down to hand to hand combat it is the best hand to hand class in 5e.
In the past someone has asked this same question and they were trying to convert a brawler with a chain weapon from Pathfinder to 5e and were having trouble do to how 5e is set up vs D&D 3.x.
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Ok, so I have a character concept from third edition that looks like the concept can't be recreated in 5e unless I am missing something.
the idea is a character who is strong, his best state is strength and quick, next best is Dex. Preferably at least an 18 STR and a 16 DEX if the dice guides smile on him.
The concept is the character is a former slave who won his freedom by training as a gladiator or who just escaped bondage using the Ancient Roman motiff I guess. The character is a Fighter and a Thief, alternating equal levels in each class up the progression. He is a pugilist so he has the ability to do damage with unarmed strikes (which I can emulate in 5e through a feats and class ability as a fighter either way. He also uses a spiked chain which I guess would just be redefined as a flail in this game as an exotic gladiator type weapon.
The issue is on the rogue side. As I understand it the rogue can only use sneak attack with a finesse weapon with melee (or ranged which is not at issue) which are only Daggers, Shortswords, Scimitars, Rapiers, Dart (used in melee I guess or is this the only ranged weapon you can use sneak with - not sure).
Unarmed is not listed as a weapon in the list. The feats or abilities that give you unarmed damage say nothing about them being finesse or not so I assume that it is not because otherwise it has to say so.
The point of the character in 3e was he used Improved Feint to get advantage to allow the sneak attack with his unarmed strike (sucker punching if you will). Character mostly used his hands to fight but used the spiked chain for reach, Not worried about that, can use the flail but no sneak attack is there. I can simulate this in 5e sort of by taking the Swashbuckler archetype which allows sneak attack when fighting an enemy with no target around i,e, alone which works because his stick was fighting professionally aka a medieval version of the WWE wrestler.
The sneak attack damage was useful for knocking foes unconscious because although you had the ability to do real damage with weapons you could still do subdual. It seems though that the only way to get sneak damage is stabbing or slashing someone.
Unless there is a feat or ability I am missing that can make an unarmed strike a finesse weapon I guess this concept can't be made in 5e.
Honestly 5e's weapon list is way too short. Are they planning to ever expand on it.
Unarmed strikes do not qualify for sneak attack and there isn’t a way to make them finesse. They did this on purpose as the monk class has, in all but name, finesse with unarmed strikes and monk weapons. But since they are not actually finesse (unarmed strikes are not a weapon so can’t have a weapon property. Although they do count as a melee weapon attack) they can’t be used to sneak attack.
The whip has finesse and reach so that might work better reflavored as your spiked chain. And let’s face it, for rogues the main point of their weapons is as a vehicle to deliver sneak attack damage.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Problem is the whip is a slashing weapon and not bludgeoning.
There is no finesse weapon that does bludgeoning damage.
This is why I also ask if they are going to expand on this. I mean brass knuckles, gauntlets, there are so many actual weapons not defined that just don't fit in this.
Plus as a former slave the character would hate whips and refuse to use them. The spiked chain worked because it was just a piece of chain he found and added barbs to when he first went into the arena but eventually leaned showmanship with it. The fighter archetype is champion and the background gladiator so everything I have is in place except the ability to coild cock somebody and knock them unconscious.
I really got to say I am unimpressed with the way they just wholesale removed options entirely.
I guess we are supposed to create our own in homebrew. There should be a feat you can take that turns an unarmed strike into a finesse weapon and one you can take without having to be a monk. HEMA had very robust hand to hand techniques. - Oh Well!
As a rough idea: Use a sling, its ranged and then qualifies for sneak attack at range but then see if you can agree a home brew with your DM of "Slapjack" where you can use the laoded sling in melee as a finesse bludgeoning weapon, damage wise its in line with a dagger so should be ok. Failing that you could use a sling and the crossbow expert feat to be able to fire it in melee and then just flavour that as the slapjack attack.
You can always ask if the DM would be okay with reflavoring a rapier as a spiked chain and a dagger as unarmed strike perhaps. The concept could be emulated with the same damage bench.
Seconded, DM permission is the only way this would work
In general the base idea of 5e seems to be its simplicity and limit options where are 3e focus was to have many options. They are very different games IMHO even though they use the same basic game foundations (6 stats, d20, etc).
In general your idea would work better a rogue monk and home brew some rules.
Page 198 of the PHB should solve all of your problems. You don't need bludgeoning damage to knock someone out.
Sorry if I missed on the need for the spiked chain as bludgeoning, it has barbs so thought slashing would be fine. The whip was just for the mechanics and flavoring would provide the rest.
And I think it kind of makes sense for bludgeoning weapons not to have finesse.
And agree all this would be up to the DM so work with them to see if you can bring your vision to the table. But 5E isn’t 3E so there has to be some give and take.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Yeah but a Monk is not a Thug and a former slave would lean roguish things like how to pick the lock on his cell door, how to deceive the guards, how to interpret people's response to gain insight into what they are saying etc. that are all the province of a rogue. Monk levels change the core concept of the character so to my mind do not work.
Spike chain was really more for show in a gladiator arena, the main focus of how the character hurt someone would be his unarmed martial prowess. Spiked chain was 3e but it is not necessary to the concept, we could easily describe it in a fashion that is a spiked chain and use the states for a flail from the book. It is only used essentially for dramatic license in the areas as a show anyway.
It's homebrew, but "changing the damage type of a weapon" is so unobtrusive that I can't imagine any DM would have a problem with it, so my suggestion is to just use a dagger, change it to bludgeoning damage, and call it a blackjack, to give you the "sneaking up and knocking people out like in the Thief games" vibe. Or just use an actual dagger and call it bladed knuckles or something. Weapon damage type doesn't actually matter except when fighting against a very specific and very tiny subset of monsters.
There are many types of monks, ninja might be a earth based example and if you distill the idea down to hand to hand combat it is the best hand to hand class in 5e.
In the past someone has asked this same question and they were trying to convert a brawler with a chain weapon from Pathfinder to 5e and were having trouble do to how 5e is set up vs D&D 3.x.