Abomination Vaults was adapted for D&D 5th edition over a year ago. And it's a given it'd be that version on DDB, Pathfinder itself is hosted on Demiplane and DDB only supports D&D 5th edition
Don't worry OP, i get your confusion. The long running bad blood between the Pathfinder and D&D communities ( and sometimes the higher ups at the associated companies ) would make you think that neither would agree to such a thing.
But it seems they have, which yeah, feels a little out of left field to me.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
Don't worry OP, i get your confusion. The long running bad blood between the Pathfinder and D&D communities ( and sometimes the higher ups at the associated companies ) would make you think that neither would agree to such a thing.
But it seems they have, which yeah, feels a little out of left field to me.
It’s like if a year from now Daggerheart stuff pops up here. Assuming they release something 5E compatible
Don't worry OP, i get your confusion. The long running bad blood between the Pathfinder and D&D communities ( and sometimes the higher ups at the associated companies ) would make you think that neither would agree to such a thing.
But it seems they have, which yeah, feels a little out of left field to me.
It’s like if a year from now Daggerheart stuff pops up here. Assuming they release something 5E compatible
like, i can kinda see that happening. Mend fences before the bad blood festers. That is the weird inverse, i think it could and might happen, and i am not sure it would be good if it did.
Daggerheart needs to be its own thing. If it gets reabsorbed into D&D in some form or another, i think the world would be lesser for it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
My opinion is if the sales are good, Paizo could dare to publish not only adventures but monster compediums and PC species.
Paizo physical sales are literally zeroed out now. They're fighting in bankruptcy court to get their entire back-catalog of physical merchandise back from Diamond Comic Distributors.
Honestly, this is probably more of an olive branch to say "Let's work together again" and Paizo is making the most of publishing on as many digital platforms as they can right now, in order to reduce the shock to the system of the Diamond Comic Distributors bankruptcy. They need to make alternate sales opportunities to see them through.
IMO the only good benefit out of the DCD bankruptcy is that Paizo and WotC can come to the table together. D&D needs a boost from 3rd party publishers, and Paizo is one of the biggest names in that space after WotC, for quality content.
I don't think there's as much (if any) "bad blood" as people assume. I think at this point a good percentage of WotC's designers are former Paizo designers, for example.
I don't think there's as much (if any) "bad blood" as people assume. I think at this point a good percentage of WotC's designers are former Paizo designers, for example.
Paizo is a direct competitor that was founded by people who designed content during 3rd edition so I'd be surprised if there wasn't some antagonistic work culture between these two companies.
I don't think there's as much (if any) "bad blood" as people assume. I think at this point a good percentage of WotC's designers are former Paizo designers, for example.
Paizo is a direct competitor that was founded by people who designed content during 3rd edition so I'd be surprised if there wasn't some antagonistic work culture between these two companies.
Except that there are quite a few former Paizo employees at WotC these days, and some vice versa.
I think "bad blood" is more a fandom thing. The companies generally don't care. They just want to make money. If a collaboration makes sense, they do it. If not, they don't. Usually, there wouldn't be this kind of cooperation because Paizo would prefer people bought Pathfinder to get their adventures than just mere sales that bringing it to 5e would. On the other hand, sometimes that extra recognisability and cash is worth it. It's just a balance of things on the whole and attitudes of those in charge.
Feuds aren't really a thing for big busineses, too much turnover and emotional distance from actions. In little ones, you have to suck it up or go out of business fast as you hate everyone. As I said, bad blood is for the fandoms.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I don't think there's as much (if any) "bad blood" as people assume. I think at this point a good percentage of WotC's designers are former Paizo designers, for example.
Paizo is a direct competitor that was founded by people who designed content during 3rd edition so I'd be surprised if there wasn't some antagonistic work culture between these two companies.
Except that there are quite a few former Paizo employees at WotC these days, and some vice versa.
Wes Schneider, one of the two current design leads, was the editor-in-chief at Paizo before he joined Wizards of the Coast. James Wyatt, the other lead, worked freelance for Dragon Magazine back when Paizo was publishing D&D content for TSR. I am pretty sure in some video interviews I saw with Crawford, there were Pathfinder (and other non-D&D RPGs) books mixed in on his home bookshelf. I know multiple game designers for D&D and other companies have talked about just generally loving TTRPGs, and not really seeing them as rivals, but just other systems to play.
At its core, that kind of makes sense. For starters, this is an industry based on collaborative roleplaying, even within parties that sometimes have internal rivalries. Being able to put aside differences and still be friends is a core component of gameplay.
Even beyond that, the industries where you see lots of animosity between companies are ones where there is extreme competition for limited resources - that is not really the case here given that TTRPGs have been dominated by D&D's unrivalled hegemony for years. For D&D, there really is no meaningful competition to get upset about (even at its lowest points in 4e, D&D still overwhelmingly eclipsed Pathfinder--Pathfinder executives have acknowledged even at D&D's worst, it was not even close). For other companies, D&D is the anchorpoint that drives people into the hobby and helps get them business. That is not the kind of relationship that really drives animosity among developers.
Don't worry OP, i get your confusion. The long running bad blood between the Pathfinder and D&D communities ( and sometimes the higher ups at the associated companies ) would make you think that neither would agree to such a thing.
But it seems they have, which yeah, feels a little out of left field to me.
The "communities" are not a monolith (never mind the higher ups), and any "bad blood" you believe exists between them is likely a lot more limited in scope in reality. The fact is that many of us have played both Pathfinder and D&D for years without issue, and folks are always willing to help convert modules from one game to the other . What this product does is enable that conversion to be handled by professionals and run fairly seamlessly on the DDB platform.
At the end of the day, I've enjoyed playing games in the world of Golarion for years. Just because 5e24 is my primary system of choice over PF2R, doesn't mean I have to abandon a fun and familiar fantasy setting. The existence of this product means that they see enough of a demand out in the market that's similar to my own to make these kinds of conversions worthwhile, so I would expect to see more of them over time.
Don't worry OP, i get your confusion. The long running bad blood between the Pathfinder and D&D communities ( and sometimes the higher ups at the associated companies ) would make you think that neither would agree to such a thing.
But it seems they have, which yeah, feels a little out of left field to me.
The "communities" are not a monolith (never mind the higher ups), and any "bad blood" you believe exists between them is likely a lot more limited in scope in reality. The fact is that many of us have played both Pathfinder and D&D for years without issue, and folks are always willing to help convert modules from one game to the other . What this product does is enable that conversion to be handled by professionals and run fairly seamlessly on the DDB platform.
At the end of the day, I've enjoyed playing games in the world of Golarion for years. Just because 5e24 is my primary system of choice over PF2R, doesn't mean I have to abandon a fun and familiar fantasy setting. The existence of this product means that they see enough of a demand out in the market that's similar to my own to make these kinds of conversions worthwhile, so I would expect to see more of them over time.
Didn't say they were monolithic. didn't say there wasn't cross over, didn't say anything about the scope, just that Bad blood exists. "X exists" says nothing about the amount of X, and my statement only implies that there is enough of it for me to understand the confusion. Let people speak casually for Mystra's sake.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
Didn't say they were monolithic. didn't say there wasn't cross over, didn't say anything about the scope, just that Bad blood exists. "X exists" says nothing about the amount of X, and my statement only implies that there is enough of it for me to understand the confusion. Let people speak casually for Mystra's sake.
I'm not stopping you from speaking 🤨 I was explaining why neither you nor the OP should be confused by a perfectly understandable and easy-to-follow business decision.
I'm genuinely intrigued where the idea of "Bad Blood" comes from, at this point. I get the communities are constantly trying to gain superiority, but the businesses diverged a long time ago, regularly exchange staff, and both are thriving businesses in their own rights with their own games.
Has anyone got actual company sources for the antagonism, because it's been 16 years, and there wasn't really bad blood back then. There was more issues with ending Dragon Magazine, than Paizo releasing a 3.5 based Pathfinder, IIRC.
As I mentioned above, Paizo is currently in financial concern, because of Diamond Comic Distributors. If this is anything, it's a friendly company providing another friendly company with assistance because they want to keep things afloat, than any sort of truce. Paizo needs the help right now, and if there were Bad Blood, WotC could easily hang them out to dry, but did the opposite.
Has anyone got actual company sources for the antagonism, because it's been 16 years, and there wasn't really bad blood back then. There was more issues with ending Dragon Magazine, than Paizo releasing a 3.5 based Pathfinder, IIRC.
It is a common myth that D&D did something nefarious with the Dragon contract, but the actual circumstances hardly lend themselves to bad blood.
The reality is that the Dragon Magazine contract did not get terminated, it simply expired - as is nearly universal, the contract was only drafted to last a few years, and would need to be renewed at the end of that period. No contract renewal, the contract goes away - this is something Paizo knew the day they signed the contract.
Now, on the day they signed the contract, they might have expected a renewal… but they certainly knew well in advance of the end date it would not be renewed. During the course of the contract, print magazines suffered a harsh blow, significantly due to the ever-rising popularity of the internet. Paizo knew the print magazine industry was dying - they killed off their own print magazine a year or so before the Dragon contract expired.
So, we have a contract everyone at Paizo knew was expiring, in an industry no one at Paizo had any faith in at the time of renewal. I highly doubt anyone at Paizo is angry the contract expired - they had years of advanced warning, and no one with any sense is going to say “I am angry Wizards is not renewing a contract for a dead industry that we ourselves got out of.” It also is not like Wizards let the contract expire and picked a new partner - another thing they can leave bad blood - they just killed off the print Dragon magazine.
Neither Paizo nor Wizards did anything wrong with Dragon Magazine. It just was, unfortunately, the print version’s time to die due to factors far beyond either’s control. There is really zero cause for bad blood on this issue, and I highly doubt there was any significant animosity - if there was, it was almost certainly misplaced anger in the face of the depressing, yet inevitable, death of print magazines.
Has anyone got actual company sources for the antagonism, because it's been 16 years, and there wasn't really bad blood back then. There was more issues with ending Dragon Magazine, than Paizo releasing a 3.5 based Pathfinder, IIRC.
It is a common myth that D&D did something nefarious with the Dragon contract, but the actual circumstances hardly lend themselves to bad blood.
The reality is that the Dragon Magazine contract did not get terminated, it simply expired - as is nearly universal, the contract was only drafted to last a few years, and would need to be renewed at the end of that period. No contract renewal, the contract goes away - this is something Paizo knew the day they signed the contract.
Now, on the day they signed the contract, they might have expected a renewal… but they certainly knew well in advance of the end date it would not be renewed. During the course of the contract, print magazines suffered a harsh blow, significantly due to the ever-rising popularity of the internet. Paizo knew the print magazine industry was dying - they killed off their own print magazine a year or so before the Dragon contract expired.
So, we have a contract everyone at Paizo knew was expiring, in an industry no one at Paizo had any faith in at the time of renewal. I highly doubt anyone at Paizo is angry the contract expired - they had years of advanced warning, and no one with any sense is going to say “I am angry Wizards is not renewing a contract for a dead industry that we ourselves got out of.” It also is not like Wizards let the contract expire and picked a new partner - another thing they can leave bad blood - they just killed off the print Dragon magazine.
Neither Paizo nor Wizards did anything wrong with Dragon Magazine. It just was, unfortunately, the print version’s time to die due to factors far beyond either’s control. There is really zero cause for bad blood on this issue, and I highly doubt there was any significant animosity - if there was, it was almost certainly misplaced anger in the face of the depressing, yet inevitable, death of print magazines.
While I generally agree about Print, but they'd intended to keep the digital format going until WotC changed their mind. Digital periodicals are definitely not a "dead industry" as Patreon has proven.
I'm genuinely intrigued where the idea of "Bad Blood" comes from, at this point. I get the communities are constantly trying to gain superiority, but the businesses diverged a long time ago, regularly exchange staff, and both are thriving businesses in their own rights with their own games.
Has anyone got actual company sources for the antagonism, because it's been 16 years, and there wasn't really bad blood back then. There was more issues with ending Dragon Magazine, than Paizo releasing a 3.5 based Pathfinder, IIRC.
As I mentioned above, Paizo is currently in financial concern, because of Diamond Comic Distributors. If this is anything, it's a friendly company providing another friendly company with assistance because they want to keep things afloat, than any sort of truce. Paizo needs the help right now, and if there were Bad Blood, WotC could easily hang them out to dry, but did the opposite.
I imagine it’s a similar to Marvel and DC fans. Fans assume that there’s all this animosity between them, when in reality most of the writers and artists work for both and would like for the characters to crossover but the people who run the companies refuse to split profits with competition. Until this year (look up Batman/Deadpool)
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That's something I never expected
edit: I know it's a 5e conversion. it's just the fact that it's pathfinder...like, Paizo...ya know...
It appears to be a 5e conversion of a Pathfinder adventure, not Pathfinder content (but Paizo publishing something for 5e is also unexpected).
Abomination Vaults was adapted for D&D 5th edition over a year ago. And it's a given it'd be that version on DDB, Pathfinder itself is hosted on Demiplane and DDB only supports D&D 5th edition
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Don't worry OP, i get your confusion. The long running bad blood between the Pathfinder and D&D communities ( and sometimes the higher ups at the associated companies ) would make you think that neither would agree to such a thing.
But it seems they have, which yeah, feels a little out of left field to me.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
It’s like if a year from now Daggerheart stuff pops up here. Assuming they release something 5E compatible
like, i can kinda see that happening. Mend fences before the bad blood festers.
That is the weird inverse, i think it could and might happen, and i am not sure it would be good if it did.
Daggerheart needs to be its own thing. If it gets reabsorbed into D&D in some form or another, i think the world would be lesser for it.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
My opinion is if the sales are good, Paizo could dare to publish not only adventures but monster compediums and PC species.
Paizo physical sales are literally zeroed out now. They're fighting in bankruptcy court to get their entire back-catalog of physical merchandise back from Diamond Comic Distributors.
https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo71kxl
Honestly, this is probably more of an olive branch to say "Let's work together again" and Paizo is making the most of publishing on as many digital platforms as they can right now, in order to reduce the shock to the system of the Diamond Comic Distributors bankruptcy. They need to make alternate sales opportunities to see them through.
IMO the only good benefit out of the DCD bankruptcy is that Paizo and WotC can come to the table together. D&D needs a boost from 3rd party publishers, and Paizo is one of the biggest names in that space after WotC, for quality content.
I don't think there's as much (if any) "bad blood" as people assume. I think at this point a good percentage of WotC's designers are former Paizo designers, for example.
Paizo is a direct competitor that was founded by people who designed content during 3rd edition so I'd be surprised if there wasn't some antagonistic work culture between these two companies.
Except that there are quite a few former Paizo employees at WotC these days, and some vice versa.
I think "bad blood" is more a fandom thing. The companies generally don't care. They just want to make money. If a collaboration makes sense, they do it. If not, they don't. Usually, there wouldn't be this kind of cooperation because Paizo would prefer people bought Pathfinder to get their adventures than just mere sales that bringing it to 5e would. On the other hand, sometimes that extra recognisability and cash is worth it. It's just a balance of things on the whole and attitudes of those in charge.
Feuds aren't really a thing for big busineses, too much turnover and emotional distance from actions. In little ones, you have to suck it up or go out of business fast as you hate everyone. As I said, bad blood is for the fandoms.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Wes Schneider, one of the two current design leads, was the editor-in-chief at Paizo before he joined Wizards of the Coast. James Wyatt, the other lead, worked freelance for Dragon Magazine back when Paizo was publishing D&D content for TSR. I am pretty sure in some video interviews I saw with Crawford, there were Pathfinder (and other non-D&D RPGs) books mixed in on his home bookshelf. I know multiple game designers for D&D and other companies have talked about just generally loving TTRPGs, and not really seeing them as rivals, but just other systems to play.
At its core, that kind of makes sense. For starters, this is an industry based on collaborative roleplaying, even within parties that sometimes have internal rivalries. Being able to put aside differences and still be friends is a core component of gameplay.
Even beyond that, the industries where you see lots of animosity between companies are ones where there is extreme competition for limited resources - that is not really the case here given that TTRPGs have been dominated by D&D's unrivalled hegemony for years. For D&D, there really is no meaningful competition to get upset about (even at its lowest points in 4e, D&D still overwhelmingly eclipsed Pathfinder--Pathfinder executives have acknowledged even at D&D's worst, it was not even close). For other companies, D&D is the anchorpoint that drives people into the hobby and helps get them business. That is not the kind of relationship that really drives animosity among developers.
The "communities" are not a monolith (never mind the higher ups), and any "bad blood" you believe exists between them is likely a lot more limited in scope in reality. The fact is that many of us have played both Pathfinder and D&D for years without issue, and folks are always willing to help convert modules from one game to the other . What this product does is enable that conversion to be handled by professionals and run fairly seamlessly on the DDB platform.
At the end of the day, I've enjoyed playing games in the world of Golarion for years. Just because 5e24 is my primary system of choice over PF2R, doesn't mean I have to abandon a fun and familiar fantasy setting. The existence of this product means that they see enough of a demand out in the market that's similar to my own to make these kinds of conversions worthwhile, so I would expect to see more of them over time.
Didn't say they were monolithic. didn't say there wasn't cross over, didn't say anything about the scope, just that Bad blood exists. "X exists" says nothing about the amount of X, and my statement only implies that there is enough of it for me to understand the confusion.
Let people speak casually for Mystra's sake.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
I'm not stopping you from speaking 🤨 I was explaining why neither you nor the OP should be confused by a perfectly understandable and easy-to-follow business decision.
I'm genuinely intrigued where the idea of "Bad Blood" comes from, at this point. I get the communities are constantly trying to gain superiority, but the businesses diverged a long time ago, regularly exchange staff, and both are thriving businesses in their own rights with their own games.
Has anyone got actual company sources for the antagonism, because it's been 16 years, and there wasn't really bad blood back then. There was more issues with ending Dragon Magazine, than Paizo releasing a 3.5 based Pathfinder, IIRC.
As I mentioned above, Paizo is currently in financial concern, because of Diamond Comic Distributors. If this is anything, it's a friendly company providing another friendly company with assistance because they want to keep things afloat, than any sort of truce. Paizo needs the help right now, and if there were Bad Blood, WotC could easily hang them out to dry, but did the opposite.
It is a common myth that D&D did something nefarious with the Dragon contract, but the actual circumstances hardly lend themselves to bad blood.
The reality is that the Dragon Magazine contract did not get terminated, it simply expired - as is nearly universal, the contract was only drafted to last a few years, and would need to be renewed at the end of that period. No contract renewal, the contract goes away - this is something Paizo knew the day they signed the contract.
Now, on the day they signed the contract, they might have expected a renewal… but they certainly knew well in advance of the end date it would not be renewed. During the course of the contract, print magazines suffered a harsh blow, significantly due to the ever-rising popularity of the internet. Paizo knew the print magazine industry was dying - they killed off their own print magazine a year or so before the Dragon contract expired.
So, we have a contract everyone at Paizo knew was expiring, in an industry no one at Paizo had any faith in at the time of renewal. I highly doubt anyone at Paizo is angry the contract expired - they had years of advanced warning, and no one with any sense is going to say “I am angry Wizards is not renewing a contract for a dead industry that we ourselves got out of.” It also is not like Wizards let the contract expire and picked a new partner - another thing they can leave bad blood - they just killed off the print Dragon magazine.
Neither Paizo nor Wizards did anything wrong with Dragon Magazine. It just was, unfortunately, the print version’s time to die due to factors far beyond either’s control. There is really zero cause for bad blood on this issue, and I highly doubt there was any significant animosity - if there was, it was almost certainly misplaced anger in the face of the depressing, yet inevitable, death of print magazines.
While I generally agree about Print, but they'd intended to keep the digital format going until WotC changed their mind. Digital periodicals are definitely not a "dead industry" as Patreon has proven.
I imagine it’s a similar to Marvel and DC fans. Fans assume that there’s all this animosity between them, when in reality most of the writers and artists work for both and would like for the characters to crossover but the people who run the companies refuse to split profits with competition. Until this year (look up Batman/Deadpool)