I am a little hesitant to put this out there, if only because when WotC first acquired D&D, I was excited for their stewardship of the game, but since they have been acquired by Hasbro, and with the recent turn of events, and the bad will they have engendered with the property (as well as with MtG), I am really hoping that profits plunge for Hasbro, causing them to spin off intellectual properties in order to stave off losses, and that Paizo acquires D&D. Thoughts?
So you are actively hoping people lose their jobs? Wow, am I glad I don't have you at my table. How about we just play a game and have fun. If you don't want to play D&D, great, don't play. But don't put forth statements hoping for the detriment of a company and its employees.
Paizo acquiring D&D would A.) never happen, and B.) be an absolute unmitigated disaster.
Paizo is not actually any better than Wizards of the Coast. They're not any worse. Paizo is a for-profit gaming and publishing company that wants to sell books and will do whatever it thinks it can get away with to sell those books. Paizo is also deeply invested in the failure of D&D, as D&D's fall gives room for their flagship Pathfinder product to rise. Paizo didn't milk the OGL situation for all it was worth because they loved the gaming community, they milked it because their biggest competitor in the space faceplanted onto a landmine and Paizo was not about to let the opportunity to capitalize on their foe's mistake go by. Paizo is actively hoping and praying that 5e never recovers from this, that One D&D fails to gain traction at all due to this, and that the gaming community ends up naturally standardizing on Pathfinder instead of D&D and thus pushes Paizo to prominence.
Also: Paizo does not begin to have the financial headroom to acquire D&D wholesale from Hasbro even if Hasbro was on fire and in mid-bankruptcy. What is more likely to happen is that Wizards will simply spin off into its own company again - there were a number of investors and stakeholders who were angrily demanding just that when Hasbro kept announcing decline after decline. But what is more likely by far is that Hasbro will cling to Wizards like a shipwreck survivor to a liferaft. Wizards is its single most profitable business unit, and D&D is a desperately needed piece of diversification for Hasbro. Hasbro does very poorly during global pandemics and supply disruptions, and it doesn't have much pull with older audiences. D&D is an answer to all of these, and it's already a solid, well-performing brand. It's not a giant money hose like M:tG, but it consistently performs. They're not gonna let it go.
WotC isn't going anywhere, and by extension, neither is D&D. They WILL take a hit from their mishandling of the last several weeks, but they did the same with 4e, as they are doing with 6e. They survived that, they will survive this. I will not be along for the ride, however.
I informed my group tonight that once this D&D campaign reaches its natural conclusion, we WILL be switching over to the Palladium Fantasy RPG. I have more table hours playing and running that system, than I do all of the versions of D&D combined, and two of the players at my table have been in most of those sessions. I won't be accelerating the end of this campaign, as really we are just getting started.
I did pick up a bundle of Pathfinder 2 PDFs from Humble Bundle sometime around summer last year, but nobody in the group is interested in taking a look at it. I have several other game systems and settings as well, and we may at some point shift into one of those. And we may very well come back to D&D, whether it's 3.5e, 4e, or 5e. But unless somebody else is running the game and investing in the books, I won't be playing 6e. I'm more interested in Project Black Flag, than what Paizo currently has out.
I'll not try to talk anybody out of playing D&D 6e, or spending money on books or even whatever DDB turns into, but they won't be getting another penny from me, they lost my trust, and my patronage. Most of us are adults here, so make your own decision. Just don't attempt to belittle someone for not sharing your opinion, whatever it is.
I think the Management of WotC/DnD are in a bit of a quandry at the moment. Back when I played 3.5E almost all of my RPG hobby spend went to WotC products (supplements, FR suff, Dungeon & Dragon magazines etc..) created by the DnD creatives and they got the money (less their costs). DnD did the work, DnD got the money.
Fast forward to 5E and most of my RPG hobby spend goes to 3rd party Publishers (direct to them or by the usual channels KS, DTRPG etc..). Aside from buying the 3 books, and a couple of supplements little of that goes to WotC, 3rd party publishers do the work, 3rd party publishers get the money. I get regular useful communication from all the publishers and feel I have input into their products and their stuff is reasonably priced so all was good until a few weeks ago.
So what I'd like to see WotC/DnD to do (and not to do) more of, i don't think these are contradictary and should be constructive:
1) Do work at bringing more people into the hobby (new and former players) and keeping them happy
2) Do create a more much broader range of products/supplements/settings/modules yourselves (you do the work, you get the money)
3) Do support 3rd party providers (if WotC want to make sites or use DDB to sell and promote DnD crowdfunding and PDF sales nothing is stopping them)
4) Do support local game stores and encourage their creation/survival
5) Do put more work into understanding what the community wants (rather than what you think it wants)
6) Don't make 3rd party products more expensive by doing stuff like royalties and all that, I know that's how other businesses operate but WotC/DnD have had a few goes at that and it causes more trouble for them than it's worth and drives people away.
7) Don't make this 3D VTT thing become the be all and end all of DnD
WotC isn't going anywhere, and by extension, neither is D&D. They WILL take a hit from their mishandling of the last several weeks, but they did the same with 4e, as they are doing with 6e. They survived that, they will survive this. I will not be along for the ride, however.
I informed my group tonight that once this D&D campaign reaches its natural conclusion, we WILL be switching over to the Palladium Fantasy RPG. I have more table hours playing and running that system, than I do all of the versions of D&D combined, and two of the players at my table have been in most of those sessions. I won't be accelerating the end of this campaign, as really we are just getting started.
I did pick up a bundle of Pathfinder 2 PDFs from Humble Bundle sometime around summer last year, but nobody in the group is interested in taking a look at it. I have several other game systems and settings as well, and we may at some point shift into one of those. And we may very well come back to D&D, whether it's 3.5e, 4e, or 5e. But unless somebody else is running the game and investing in the books, I won't be playing 6e. I'm more interested in Project Black Flag, than what Paizo currently has out.
I'll not try to talk anybody out of playing D&D 6e, or spending money on books or even whatever DDB turns into, but they won't be getting another penny from me, they lost my trust, and my patronage. Most of us are adults here, so make your own decision. Just don't attempt to belittle someone for not sharing your opinion, whatever it is.
Doesn't the fact you are still posting here suggest you are still along for the ride?
Is this suddenly 6e? No? Then no, I am not along for the ride.
So you are actively hoping people lose their jobs? Wow, am I glad I don't have you at my table. How about we just play a game and have fun. If you don't want to play D&D, great, don't play. But don't put forth statements hoping for the detriment of a company and its employees.
Agreed. People need to get their heads out of their asses and actually think about what they're saying before they post shit like this.
I said nothing about "hoping people lose their jobs", but nice try, trying to put words in my mouth. People need to actually read what was written, and not put their own suppositions on it.
But to justify your projections, yeah, SOME people DO need to lose their jobs, at the very least. The mishandling of the OGL, along with flooding MtG cards into the marketplace, and the seemingly constant PR snafus, the seemingly ill will certain executives have towards the players.... all leading to stock prices falling and the stocks ratng getting lowered... yeah, I will say it again: SOME people DO need to get fired. There is a thing such as accountability in the business world for incometence.
Yurei, Doranur and Torchy: good responses, thank you for those.
I said nothing about "hoping people lose their jobs", but nice try, trying to put words in my mouth. People need to actually read what was written, and not put their own suppositions on it.
You do realise that if a company fails, the people working there WILL lose their jobs, right? Not to insinuate anything, but I would really recommend actually having some sort of prior knowledge on how things work before you make such a bold statement.
Furthermore, you state you "don't want people to lose their jobs" and then proceed with:
Snark aside, no matter how well they handled it, Paizo owning D&D would mean one thing for certain - fewer gaming options in the TTRPG landscape, not more. That would be a net loss for us as participants in the hobby.
I am a little hesitant to put this out there, if only because when WotC first acquired D&D, I was excited for their stewardship of the game, but since they have been acquired by Hasbro, and with the recent turn of events, and the bad will they have engendered with the property (as well as with MtG), I am really hoping that profits plunge for Hasbro, causing them to spin off intellectual properties in order to stave off losses, and that Paizo acquires D&D. Thoughts?
What do you mean about "since WotC was acquired by Hasbro"? You do realize that the only D&D products WotC published before Hasbro acquired them was just a handful of AD&D 2e books, right?
All of 3.0, 3.5, 4e, 4e Essentials, and 5e have all been since Hasbro acquired WotC. It is not a recent thing. 2 years without Hasbro. 24 years with.
Wow, again, trying to put words into my mouth. In the first post, please show me where I explicitly said I want people to lose their jobs. You cant. Is it a consequence of my rumination? Sure, but extrapolating my "hope" from that first post, well, that's YOU projecting your thoughts and feelings onto what I wrote, and has nothing to do with me.
Your insistence on using buzzwords like "projecting" only leads me to believe that you're here for the sole purpose of trolling.
No, my insistence on using words to call out people trying to troll a simple post doesn't make me the troll. Again, nice try, though. I wish I could help you along with reading comprehension. As for the snark, I usually only reply with snark to snark.
So lets break it down, so that we can hopefully put this to bed. In response to my first post, you and some other poster responded with what appeared to be outrage that I "hoped people lose their jobs". The start of my second post stated that nowhere in the first post were those words ever written. Hence the quote "I said nothing about "hoping people lose their jobs". So, your first response was to something that was never written.
You then attempted to take something I did write (in the second post) and assigned a completely different meaning to it. The statements "I dont want people to lose their jobs" (written by YOU, and somehow assigned to me) and "I said nothing about "hoping people lose their jobs"" (actually written by me in response to your response to my first post) are in no way related.
Fancy dancing and brushing aside the implications of a statement does not, by default, make a statement about ones hope untrue. You stated you had hopes of a profit plunge and a "fire sale" of the D&D brand as a result. Now maybe you're not up to speed on how business works, but hoping for a business to suffer large revenue loss means jobs will be lost. By all means, try to distance yourself from the linked result to your wish, but spare us the high and mighty stand that you don't want people to lose jobs when your hope will result in exactly that.
In either case, as Yuriel pointed out, Paizo and other little kids on the block won't be in a position to even consider such a purchase in the foreseeable future. I don't see Hasbro dumping their fastest growing asset and I don't see them cleaning house of execs in the face of this. In fact a better business model can come from such a mess, as everyone involved now has a clear view of what these attempts resulted in, which is outrage. Using that as a compass for the future, it's likely we won't see something quite as poorly thought out dropped in the near future at least.
I watched 2 of the 3 recent interviews posted and I have a much clearer picture of how the fiasco came to be. As always, hindsight is 20/20 and everyone who was part of it now sees how idiotic the whole document was. They tried to revise and edit it, which ALSO blew up and on the 2nd kick, they had already learned to LISTEN and didn't piss around, just dropped the whole thing, hoping it can (rightfully) be buried as a part of history to be reviewed only if and when a new licensing model might be explored. At that point a review of this shit show should be done, with firm reminders of "we blew it badly last time and this is why"
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
No, my insistence on using words to call out people trying to troll a simple post doesn't make me the troll. Again, nice try, though. I wish I could help you along with reading comprehension. As for the snark, I usually only reply with snark to snark.
So lets break it down, so that we can hopefully put this to bed. In response to my first post, you and some other poster responded with what appeared to be outrage that I "hoped people lose their jobs". The start of my second post stated that nowhere in the first post were those words ever written. Hence the quote "I said nothing about "hoping people lose their jobs". So, your first response was to something that was never written.
You then attempted to take something I did write (in the second post) and assigned a completely different meaning to it. The statements "I dont want people to lose their jobs" (written by YOU, and somehow assigned to me) and "I said nothing about "hoping people lose their jobs"" (actually written by me in response to your response to my first post) are in no way related.
Your whole argument boils down to "I want WotC to crash and burn". The result of that would be an enormous loss of jobs. That is how corporations work.
No, my insistence on using words to call out people trying to troll a simple post doesn't make me the troll. Again, nice try, though. I wish I could help you along with reading comprehension. As for the snark, I usually only reply with snark to snark.
So lets break it down, so that we can hopefully put this to bed. In response to my first post, you and some other poster responded with what appeared to be outrage that I "hoped people lose their jobs". The start of my second post stated that nowhere in the first post were those words ever written. Hence the quote "I said nothing about "hoping people lose their jobs". So, your first response was to something that was never written.
You then attempted to take something I did write (in the second post) and assigned a completely different meaning to it. The statements "I dont want people to lose their jobs" (written by YOU, and somehow assigned to me) and "I said nothing about "hoping people lose their jobs"" (actually written by me in response to your response to my first post) are in no way related.
Your whole argument boils down to "I want WotC to crash and burn". The result of that would be an enormous loss of jobs. That is how corporations work.
Strangely, it is also how partnerships and proprietorships of similar size work.... It is not just a 'corporate thing'
Right. I just said "corporations" as that's what WotC is.
I am a little hesitant to put this out there, if only because when WotC first acquired D&D, I was excited for their stewardship of the game, but since they have been acquired by Hasbro, and with the recent turn of events, and the bad will they have engendered with the property (as well as with MtG), I am really hoping that profits plunge for Hasbro, causing them to spin off intellectual properties in order to stave off losses, and that Paizo acquires D&D. Thoughts?
Since they were acquired by Hasbro?? That was waaaaaay back in 1999. 2 years after WotC bought D&D.
Paizo isn't all that much better. And they're not going to develop 2 games that compete directly with one another so it would be the end of Pathfinder. Hopefully someone else ends up with the IP. Hopefully sooner rather than later...
Fancy dancing and brushing aside the implications of a statement does not, by default, make a statement about ones hope untrue. You stated you had hopes of a profit plunge and a "fire sale" of the D&D brand as a result. Now maybe you're not up to speed on how business works, but hoping for a business to suffer large revenue loss means jobs will be lost. By all means, try to distance yourself from the linked result to your wish, but spare us the high and mighty stand that you don't want people to lose jobs when your hope will result in exactly that.
??? What exactly is your point?? That failed businesses should be propped up because people will lose thier jobs?? This makes sense to you somehow??
Fancy dancing and brushing aside the implications of a statement does not, by default, make a statement about ones hope untrue. You stated you had hopes of a profit plunge and a "fire sale" of the D&D brand as a result. Now maybe you're not up to speed on how business works, but hoping for a business to suffer large revenue loss means jobs will be lost. By all means, try to distance yourself from the linked result to your wish, but spare us the high and mighty stand that you don't want people to lose jobs when your hope will result in exactly that.
??? What exactly is your point?? That failed businesses should be propped up because people will lose thier jobs?? This makes sense to you somehow??
How exactly is WotC a "failed business"?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I am a little hesitant to put this out there, if only because when WotC first acquired D&D, I was excited for their stewardship of the game, but since they have been acquired by Hasbro, and with the recent turn of events, and the bad will they have engendered with the property (as well as with MtG), I am really hoping that profits plunge for Hasbro, causing them to spin off intellectual properties in order to stave off losses, and that Paizo acquires D&D. Thoughts?
So you are actively hoping people lose their jobs? Wow, am I glad I don't have you at my table. How about we just play a game and have fun. If you don't want to play D&D, great, don't play. But don't put forth statements hoping for the detriment of a company and its employees.
Paizo acquiring D&D would A.) never happen, and B.) be an absolute unmitigated disaster.
Paizo is not actually any better than Wizards of the Coast. They're not any worse. Paizo is a for-profit gaming and publishing company that wants to sell books and will do whatever it thinks it can get away with to sell those books. Paizo is also deeply invested in the failure of D&D, as D&D's fall gives room for their flagship Pathfinder product to rise. Paizo didn't milk the OGL situation for all it was worth because they loved the gaming community, they milked it because their biggest competitor in the space faceplanted onto a landmine and Paizo was not about to let the opportunity to capitalize on their foe's mistake go by. Paizo is actively hoping and praying that 5e never recovers from this, that One D&D fails to gain traction at all due to this, and that the gaming community ends up naturally standardizing on Pathfinder instead of D&D and thus pushes Paizo to prominence.
Also: Paizo does not begin to have the financial headroom to acquire D&D wholesale from Hasbro even if Hasbro was on fire and in mid-bankruptcy. What is more likely to happen is that Wizards will simply spin off into its own company again - there were a number of investors and stakeholders who were angrily demanding just that when Hasbro kept announcing decline after decline. But what is more likely by far is that Hasbro will cling to Wizards like a shipwreck survivor to a liferaft. Wizards is its single most profitable business unit, and D&D is a desperately needed piece of diversification for Hasbro. Hasbro does very poorly during global pandemics and supply disruptions, and it doesn't have much pull with older audiences. D&D is an answer to all of these, and it's already a solid, well-performing brand. It's not a giant money hose like M:tG, but it consistently performs. They're not gonna let it go.
Please do not contact or message me.
WotC isn't going anywhere, and by extension, neither is D&D. They WILL take a hit from their mishandling of the last several weeks, but they did the same with 4e, as they are doing with 6e. They survived that, they will survive this. I will not be along for the ride, however.
I informed my group tonight that once this D&D campaign reaches its natural conclusion, we WILL be switching over to the Palladium Fantasy RPG. I have more table hours playing and running that system, than I do all of the versions of D&D combined, and two of the players at my table have been in most of those sessions. I won't be accelerating the end of this campaign, as really we are just getting started.
I did pick up a bundle of Pathfinder 2 PDFs from Humble Bundle sometime around summer last year, but nobody in the group is interested in taking a look at it. I have several other game systems and settings as well, and we may at some point shift into one of those. And we may very well come back to D&D, whether it's 3.5e, 4e, or 5e. But unless somebody else is running the game and investing in the books, I won't be playing 6e. I'm more interested in Project Black Flag, than what Paizo currently has out.
I'll not try to talk anybody out of playing D&D 6e, or spending money on books or even whatever DDB turns into, but they won't be getting another penny from me, they lost my trust, and my patronage. Most of us are adults here, so make your own decision. Just don't attempt to belittle someone for not sharing your opinion, whatever it is.
I think the Management of WotC/DnD are in a bit of a quandry at the moment. Back when I played 3.5E almost all of my RPG hobby spend went to WotC products (supplements, FR suff, Dungeon & Dragon magazines etc..) created by the DnD creatives and they got the money (less their costs). DnD did the work, DnD got the money.
Fast forward to 5E and most of my RPG hobby spend goes to 3rd party Publishers (direct to them or by the usual channels KS, DTRPG etc..). Aside from buying the 3 books, and a couple of supplements little of that goes to WotC, 3rd party publishers do the work, 3rd party publishers get the money. I get regular useful communication from all the publishers and feel I have input into their products and their stuff is reasonably priced so all was good until a few weeks ago.
So what I'd like to see WotC/DnD to do (and not to do) more of, i don't think these are contradictary and should be constructive:
1) Do work at bringing more people into the hobby (new and former players) and keeping them happy
2) Do create a more much broader range of products/supplements/settings/modules yourselves (you do the work, you get the money)
3) Do support 3rd party providers (if WotC want to make sites or use DDB to sell and promote DnD crowdfunding and PDF sales nothing is stopping them)
4) Do support local game stores and encourage their creation/survival
5) Do put more work into understanding what the community wants (rather than what you think it wants)
6) Don't make 3rd party products more expensive by doing stuff like royalties and all that, I know that's how other businesses operate but WotC/DnD have had a few goes at that and it causes more trouble for them than it's worth and drives people away.
7) Don't make this 3D VTT thing become the be all and end all of DnD
Is this suddenly 6e? No? Then no, I am not along for the ride.
Agreed. People need to get their heads out of their asses and actually think about what they're saying before they post shit like this.
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I said nothing about "hoping people lose their jobs", but nice try, trying to put words in my mouth. People need to actually read what was written, and not put their own suppositions on it.
But to justify your projections, yeah, SOME people DO need to lose their jobs, at the very least. The mishandling of the OGL, along with flooding MtG cards into the marketplace, and the seemingly constant PR snafus, the seemingly ill will certain executives have towards the players.... all leading to stock prices falling and the stocks ratng getting lowered... yeah, I will say it again: SOME people DO need to get fired. There is a thing such as accountability in the business world for incometence.
Yurei, Doranur and Torchy: good responses, thank you for those.
You do realise that if a company fails, the people working there WILL lose their jobs, right? Not to insinuate anything, but I would really recommend actually having some sort of prior knowledge on how things work before you make such a bold statement.
Furthermore, you state you "don't want people to lose their jobs" and then proceed with:
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Edit: formatting got messed up. My bad.
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But if Paizo bought D&D then who would they copy?
Snark aside, no matter how well they handled it, Paizo owning D&D would mean one thing for certain - fewer gaming options in the TTRPG landscape, not more. That would be a net loss for us as participants in the hobby.
What do you mean about "since WotC was acquired by Hasbro"? You do realize that the only D&D products WotC published before Hasbro acquired them was just a handful of AD&D 2e books, right?
All of 3.0, 3.5, 4e, 4e Essentials, and 5e have all been since Hasbro acquired WotC. It is not a recent thing. 2 years without Hasbro. 24 years with.
Your insistence on using buzzwords like "projecting" only leads me to believe that you're here for the sole purpose of trolling.
Here:
Please, stop with the snarky comebacks. It isn't a good look.
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No, my insistence on using words to call out people trying to troll a simple post doesn't make me the troll. Again, nice try, though. I wish I could help you along with reading comprehension. As for the snark, I usually only reply with snark to snark.
So lets break it down, so that we can hopefully put this to bed. In response to my first post, you and some other poster responded with what appeared to be outrage that I "hoped people lose their jobs". The start of my second post stated that nowhere in the first post were those words ever written. Hence the quote "I said nothing about "hoping people lose their jobs". So, your first response was to something that was never written.
You then attempted to take something I did write (in the second post) and assigned a completely different meaning to it. The statements "I dont want people to lose their jobs" (written by YOU, and somehow assigned to me) and "I said nothing about "hoping people lose their jobs"" (actually written by me in response to your response to my first post) are in no way related.
Fancy dancing and brushing aside the implications of a statement does not, by default, make a statement about ones hope untrue. You stated you had hopes of a profit plunge and a "fire sale" of the D&D brand as a result. Now maybe you're not up to speed on how business works, but hoping for a business to suffer large revenue loss means jobs will be lost. By all means, try to distance yourself from the linked result to your wish, but spare us the high and mighty stand that you don't want people to lose jobs when your hope will result in exactly that.
In either case, as Yuriel pointed out, Paizo and other little kids on the block won't be in a position to even consider such a purchase in the foreseeable future. I don't see Hasbro dumping their fastest growing asset and I don't see them cleaning house of execs in the face of this. In fact a better business model can come from such a mess, as everyone involved now has a clear view of what these attempts resulted in, which is outrage. Using that as a compass for the future, it's likely we won't see something quite as poorly thought out dropped in the near future at least.
I watched 2 of the 3 recent interviews posted and I have a much clearer picture of how the fiasco came to be. As always, hindsight is 20/20 and everyone who was part of it now sees how idiotic the whole document was. They tried to revise and edit it, which ALSO blew up and on the 2nd kick, they had already learned to LISTEN and didn't piss around, just dropped the whole thing, hoping it can (rightfully) be buried as a part of history to be reviewed only if and when a new licensing model might be explored. At that point a review of this shit show should be done, with firm reminders of "we blew it badly last time and this is why"
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Your whole argument boils down to "I want WotC to crash and burn". The result of that would be an enormous loss of jobs. That is how corporations work.
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Right. I just said "corporations" as that's what WotC is.
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Since they were acquired by Hasbro?? That was waaaaaay back in 1999. 2 years after WotC bought D&D.
Paizo isn't all that much better. And they're not going to develop 2 games that compete directly with one another so it would be the end of Pathfinder. Hopefully someone else ends up with the IP. Hopefully sooner rather than later...
??? What exactly is your point?? That failed businesses should be propped up because people will lose thier jobs?? This makes sense to you somehow??
How exactly is WotC a "failed business"?
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