For sake of seeing the result, multiclassed the two new Tasha's subclasses with Psionic Energy Dice, Soulknife Rogue and Psi Warrior Fighter. The two have what seems to be separately tracked sets. I'm uncertain regarding matters such as if one side's Psionic Energy Dice can fuel the other's features, and if the separate tracking is accurrate to intended function or if there is supposed to only be one set of dice and it's simply an issue of proper implementation that it appears the Psionic Energy Dice "add" so to speak.
Easentially: Both give at 3rd level of their class twice proficiency bonus Psionic Energy Dice. If you reach both features that say that, do you then have twice twice your proficiency bonus, a. k. a. quadruple your proficiency bonus, Psionic Energy Dice, or, still only double max, despite double feature?
If quadruple, can the Psionic Energy Dice from one subclass be used for the other subclass' features that use Psionic Energy Dice to function?
Considering that they are the same exact ability but with different unique uses, I would say that No you do not get quad proficiency bonus (Which in this case would actually only be 3 times your proficiency bonus) You wouldn't get double the dice, and yes you could spend the dice from one on the other because they are the same ability.
That does complicate when the die size would increase since it says that it increases specifically when you take levels in that specific class. I would rule is as whichever class ability you are using would determine the size of the die if they a different size.
I’m sure Crawford will give an answer soon, but personally I’d rule that you get just the one pool of double prof that can be used for either class but levels in both classes count towards the increase in die size.
If a player really preferred, I’d probably be ok with having completely separate pools with no crossover (trading die increase for more dice).
I’m sure Crawford will give an answer soon, but personally I’d rule that you get just the one pool of double prof that can be used for either class but levels in both classes count towards the increase in die size.
Not that you rule is unreasonable, but I'm pretty sure they won't go this way. You generally have to give up some power to make up for increased versatility. In this case an MCed Psi Knight would be just as good at being a Psi Knight as a full Psi Knight plus have access to all Soulknife abilities to boot.
I’m sure Crawford will give an answer soon, but personally I’d rule that you get just the one pool of double prof that can be used for either class but levels in both classes count towards the increase in die size.
Not that you rule is unreasonable, but I'm pretty sure they won't go this way. You generally have to give up some power to make up for increased versatility. In this case an MCed Psi Knight would be just as good at being a Psi Knight as a full Psi Knight plus have access to all Soulknife abilities to boot.
Ugh, I didn't even realize how messy they made this by having the size of the dice pool scale by overall level(i.e. proficiency bonus), but the size of the dice IN the pool scale by class level. Assuming that you only get one pool of dice, that is. I'd probably rule that you look at whatever size dice you would have from each class, and use the larger size for the whole pool.
I'm not sure all of them do, but I'm pretty sure most of the things that scale by proficiency bonus also scale in a different metric by level so you can't just get the full thing with a multiclass.
I'm not sure all of them do, but I'm pretty sure most of the things that scale by proficiency bonus also scale in a different metric by level so you can't just get the full thing with a multiclass.
Scaling things by Proficiency Bonus is a relatively new formula for them, I'm not aware of any ability that also scales by class level aside from the Psionic Energy Dice. If you know of one please tell me.
Based on similar abilites. I'd say that the number you have would go up as you multiclass, since it's just prof bonus, but the size of the die is locked to class levels. Sort of how multiclass spell casters get more and more slots but their spells known are tied to a class level.
I'm not sure all of them do, but I'm pretty sure most of the things that scale by proficiency bonus also scale in a different metric by level so you can't just get the full thing with a multiclass.
Scaling things by Proficiency Bonus is a relatively new formula for them, I'm not aware of any ability that also scales by class level aside from the Psionic Energy Dice. If you know of one please tell me.
Way of the Ascendant Dragon's breath weapon, Ranger's Favored Foe, Phantom's Wails from the Grave are three.
But when looking I found some that don't as well. Runic Knight's Giant's Might kind of scales in that it gets better at 18, Wild Magic Barbarian gets a couple features that don't scale, and pretty much anything level 10 and up with [proficiency bonus] uses is already at full power.
I'm not sure all of them do, but I'm pretty sure most of the things that scale by proficiency bonus also scale in a different metric by level so you can't just get the full thing with a multiclass.
Scaling things by Proficiency Bonus is a relatively new formula for them, I'm not aware of any ability that also scales by class level aside from the Psionic Energy Dice. If you know of one please tell me.
Way of the Ascendant Dragon's breath weapon, Ranger's Favored Foe, Phantom's Wails from the Grave are three.
But when looking I found some that don't as well. Runic Knight's Giant's Might kind of scales in that it gets better at 18, Wild Magic Barbarian gets a couple features that don't scale, and pretty much anything level 10 and up with [proficiency bonus] uses is already at full power.
Fair point about those abilities, though it's worth noting that the Psionic Energy Dice are unique in that they are obtained by two different classes, which is the source of this dilemma.
EDIT: Jeremy just clarified that each class gets a different pool of psionic energy dice and they can only use that pool for their own Psionic Power features. As such, the analysis below is wrong.
I did a full writeup on the Psi Warrior/Soulknife multiclass's Psionic Power progression:
You do not get double dice under the "same power same effect" clause (DMG 252, 2016 errata).
You get to choose the higher die from among your classes (DMG 252, 2016 errata).
Number of dice scaling is unaffected because proficiency scales independent of multiclassing.
I would allow you to spend dice from one on the other. Whenever a class feature gives you a resource pool, you can spend it on class features of the same name. See, e.g. spellcasting. This hasn't been officially commented on, but it jives narratively and mechanically.
DnDBeyond is currently handling it incorrectly by doubling the dice, which doesn't come as a surprise. There's a lot to program here and I have to imagine nuanced multiclass interactions aren't on the front burner.
There's some charts in the link showing how the dice would progress under some standard multiclass scenarios.
I did a full writeup on the Psi Warrior/Soulknife multiclass's Psionic Power progression:
You do not get double dice under the "same power same effect" clause (DMG 252, 2016 errata).
You get to choose the higher die from among your classes (DMG 252, 2016 errata).
Number of dice scaling is unaffected because proficiency scales independent of multiclassing.
I would allow you to spend dice from one on the other. Whenever a class feature gives you a resource pool, you can spend it on class features of the same name. See, e.g. spellcasting. This hasn't been officially commented on, but it jives narratively and mechanically.
DnDBeyond is currently handling it incorrectly by doubling the dice, which doesn't come as a surprise. There's a lot to program here and I have to imagine nuanced multiclass interactions aren't on the front burner.
There's some charts in the link showing how the dice would progress under some standard multiclass scenarios.
Hope this helps.
It does indeed, especially the confirmation that Beyond 's method is a stopgap during their rush to get everything Tasha'd, rather than the intended way of doing it.
And this is even before reading the full write up that you linked!
Edit: So, according to the write up, the dice gains and options are treated differently? The dice do not mix, the options do?
They really cocked up the psi sub classes. 2x PB is simply not enough psi dice for either class to function worth a damn below a PB of 5. Shame they ruined both of these in their final printing.
A Psi Warrior/Soulknife multiclass has two separate pools of Psionic Energy dice. Each one is for the exclusive use of the class that grants it(so you cannot use your Psi Warrior dice for Soulknife abilities and vice versa). So the number of dice in each pool will scale based on overall level(i.e. proficiency bonus), but the size of those dice will scale based on class level. Meaning a Psi Warrior 4/Soul Knife 6 will have a pool of eight d6's for Psi Warrior abilities, and eight d8's for Soulknife abilities.
A Psi Warrior/Soulknife multiclass has two separate pools of Psionic Energy dice. Each one is for the exclusive use of the class that grants it(so you cannot use your Psi Warrior dice for Soulknife abilities and vice versa). So the number of dice in each pool will scale based on overall level(i.e. proficiency bonus), but the size of those dice will scale based on class level. Meaning a Psi Warrior 4/Soul Knife 6 will have a pool of eight d6's for Psi Warrior abilities, and eight d8's for Soulknife abilities.
So a 10/10 soulknife/psi warrior will have 24 dice (12 each at d8?) but a straight class at 20th level will only have 12 total at d12?
A psi warrior 3/soul knife 3/warlock 14 will also have 24 dice (12 for PW, 12 for SK) but they would be d6’s. This just sounds off to me.
A Psi Warrior/Soulknife multiclass has two separate pools of Psionic Energy dice. Each one is for the exclusive use of the class that grants it(so you cannot use your Psi Warrior dice for Soulknife abilities and vice versa). So the number of dice in each pool will scale based on overall level(i.e. proficiency bonus), but the size of those dice will scale based on class level. Meaning a Psi Warrior 4/Soul Knife 6 will have a pool of eight d6's for Psi Warrior abilities, and eight d8's for Soulknife abilities.
So a 10/10 soulknife/psi warrior will have 24 dice (12 each at d8?) but a straight class at 20th level will only have 12 total at d12?
A psi warrior 3/soul knife 3/warlock 14 will also have 24 dice (12 for PW, 12 for SK) but they would be d6’s. This just sounds off to me.
The idea, I think, is that adding the different sources is what is off.
10/10 does NOT have "24", but "12 and 12", with there being a difference between those two being neccessary.
A 3/3/3 therefore does NOT have 24, they have 12 and 12 still.
A Psi Warrior/Soulknife multiclass has two separate pools of Psionic Energy dice. Each one is for the exclusive use of the class that grants it(so you cannot use your Psi Warrior dice for Soulknife abilities and vice versa). So the number of dice in each pool will scale based on overall level(i.e. proficiency bonus), but the size of those dice will scale based on class level. Meaning a Psi Warrior 4/Soul Knife 6 will have a pool of eight d6's for Psi Warrior abilities, and eight d8's for Soulknife abilities.
So a 10/10 soulknife/psi warrior will have 24 dice (12 each at d8?) but a straight class at 20th level will only have 12 total at d12?
A psi warrior 3/soul knife 3/warlock 14 will also have 24 dice (12 for PW, 12 for SK) but they would be d6’s. This just sounds off to me.
A Psi Warrior/Soulknife multiclass has two separate pools of Psionic Energy dice. Each one is for the exclusive use of the class that grants it(so you cannot use your Psi Warrior dice for Soulknife abilities and vice versa). So the number of dice in each pool will scale based on overall level(i.e. proficiency bonus), but the size of those dice will scale based on class level. Meaning a Psi Warrior 4/Soul Knife 6 will have a pool of eight d6's for Psi Warrior abilities, and eight d8's for Soulknife abilities.
So a 10/10 soulknife/psi warrior will have 24 dice (12 each at d8?) but a straight class at 20th level will only have 12 total at d12?
A psi warrior 3/soul knife 3/warlock 14 will also have 24 dice (12 for PW, 12 for SK) but they would be d6’s. This just sounds off to me.
The idea, I think, is that adding the different sources is what is off.
10/10 does NOT have "24", but "12 and 12", with there being a difference between those two being neccessary.
A 3/3/3 therefore does NOT have 24, they have 12 and 12 still.
All of this was what I was warning about with these class features that scale off of Proficiency instead of class level or Ability modifier.
A Psi Warrior/Soulknife multiclass has two separate pools of Psionic Energy dice. Each one is for the exclusive use of the class that grants it(so you cannot use your Psi Warrior dice for Soulknife abilities and vice versa). So the number of dice in each pool will scale based on overall level(i.e. proficiency bonus), but the size of those dice will scale based on class level. Meaning a Psi Warrior 4/Soul Knife 6 will have a pool of eight d6's for Psi Warrior abilities, and eight d8's for Soulknife abilities.
So a 10/10 soulknife/psi warrior will have 24 dice (12 each at d8?) but a straight class at 20th level will only have 12 total at d12?
A psi warrior 3/soul knife 3/warlock 14 will also have 24 dice (12 for PW, 12 for SK) but they would be d6’s. This just sounds off to me.
The idea, I think, is that adding the different sources is what is off.
10/10 does NOT have "24", but "12 and 12", with there being a difference between those two being neccessary.
A 3/3/3 therefore does NOT have 24, they have 12 and 12 still.
I did mention that the 24 dice are split 12 each. It just seems odd to me that a single class with the Psi dice will have max of 12, but taking a 3 level dip in one class that uses these die, also nets you 12 die. But if you multiclass in two classes that use them you double the number of dice (yes you have to keep them separate) And if they add another subclass in the future that uses the same mechanic you could multiclass 3/3/3 and have would have 8/8/8 psi dice (24) to use.
I think it would make more sense that your psi dice would be 2xprof bonus (which is based on character level) and you can use them to fuel any feature that uses them, but the size of the die would be determined by the class itself.
When you reach certain levels in this class, the size of your Psionic Energy dice increases: at 5th level (d8), 11th level (d10), and 17th level (d12). The powers below use your Psionic Energy dice.
So you could spend all your dice on your soulknife abilities or all on your psi warrior abilities or split them up however you like. But a soulknife 3/psi warrior 17 would have 12 dice to use, but if you use it for a soulknife ability the die you roll would be d6 and if you used a die for a psi warrior ability it would be d12.
And you can regain 1 as a bonus action (this ability wouldn't stack from both classes) and all on a long rest.
Edit: I guess this is one of the pitfalls of using the proficiency bonus mechanic to scale abilities, although I really like this mechanic and wish it was errata'd into other classes, like maybe the Samurai fighting spirit based on PB instead of a flat 3/long rest. Or other classes that use the ability score modifier/short or long rest.
Why is anyone concerned that a psi knight/Soul blade would get two separate pools to use on their abilities?
A battle master/warlock will have spells and manouver dice.
A battle master/soul blade will have psi dice and manouver dice.
Multiple resource pools that can't be used by the other class is nothing new, this just feels off because both class pools have the same name which may be a bit awkward at the table.
Whether scaling off proficiency is unbalanced is another question entirely.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
For sake of seeing the result, multiclassed the two new Tasha's subclasses with Psionic Energy Dice, Soulknife Rogue and Psi Warrior Fighter. The two have what seems to be separately tracked sets. I'm uncertain regarding matters such as if one side's Psionic Energy Dice can fuel the other's features, and if the separate tracking is accurrate to intended function or if there is supposed to only be one set of dice and it's simply an issue of proper implementation that it appears the Psionic Energy Dice "add" so to speak.
Easentially: Both give at 3rd level of their class twice proficiency bonus Psionic Energy Dice. If you reach both features that say that, do you then have twice twice your proficiency bonus, a. k. a. quadruple your proficiency bonus, Psionic Energy Dice, or, still only double max, despite double feature?
If quadruple, can the Psionic Energy Dice from one subclass be used for the other subclass' features that use Psionic Energy Dice to function?
All me Hombews:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WUnYn1tRvbkKOPpAkWOVlpe2S3JVLpV_LDOVzKG2DgQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
I admit curiosity as well...
Considering that they are the same exact ability but with different unique uses, I would say that No you do not get quad proficiency bonus (Which in this case would actually only be 3 times your proficiency bonus) You wouldn't get double the dice, and yes you could spend the dice from one on the other because they are the same ability.
That does complicate when the die size would increase since it says that it increases specifically when you take levels in that specific class. I would rule is as whichever class ability you are using would determine the size of the die if they a different size.
Buyers Guide for D&D Beyond - Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You - How/What is Toggled Content?
Everything you need to know about Homebrew - Homebrew FAQ - Digital Book on D&D Beyond Vs Physical Books
Can't find the content you are supposed to have access to? Read this FAQ.
"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
I’m sure Crawford will give an answer soon, but personally I’d rule that you get just the one pool of double prof that can be used for either class but levels in both classes count towards the increase in die size.
If a player really preferred, I’d probably be ok with having completely separate pools with no crossover (trading die increase for more dice).
Not that you rule is unreasonable, but I'm pretty sure they won't go this way. You generally have to give up some power to make up for increased versatility. In this case an MCed Psi Knight would be just as good at being a Psi Knight as a full Psi Knight plus have access to all Soulknife abilities to boot.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Ugh, I didn't even realize how messy they made this by having the size of the dice pool scale by overall level(i.e. proficiency bonus), but the size of the dice IN the pool scale by class level. Assuming that you only get one pool of dice, that is. I'd probably rule that you look at whatever size dice you would have from each class, and use the larger size for the whole pool.
I'm not sure all of them do, but I'm pretty sure most of the things that scale by proficiency bonus also scale in a different metric by level so you can't just get the full thing with a multiclass.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Scaling things by Proficiency Bonus is a relatively new formula for them, I'm not aware of any ability that also scales by class level aside from the Psionic Energy Dice. If you know of one please tell me.
Based on similar abilites. I'd say that the number you have would go up as you multiclass, since it's just prof bonus, but the size of the die is locked to class levels. Sort of how multiclass spell casters get more and more slots but their spells known are tied to a class level.
Way of the Ascendant Dragon's breath weapon, Ranger's Favored Foe, Phantom's Wails from the Grave are three.
But when looking I found some that don't as well. Runic Knight's Giant's Might kind of scales in that it gets better at 18, Wild Magic Barbarian gets a couple features that don't scale, and pretty much anything level 10 and up with [proficiency bonus] uses is already at full power.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Fair point about those abilities, though it's worth noting that the Psionic Energy Dice are unique in that they are obtained by two different classes, which is the source of this dilemma.
EDIT: Jeremy just clarified that each class gets a different pool of psionic energy dice and they can only use that pool for their own Psionic Power features. As such, the analysis below is wrong.
I did a full writeup on the Psi Warrior/Soulknife multiclass's Psionic Power progression:
I would allow you to spend dice from one on the other. Whenever a class feature gives you a resource pool, you can spend it on class features of the same name. See, e.g. spellcasting. This hasn't been officially commented on, but it jives narratively and mechanically.
DnDBeyond is currently handling it incorrectly by doubling the dice, which doesn't come as a surprise. There's a lot to program here and I have to imagine nuanced multiclass interactions aren't on the front burner.
There's some charts in the link showing how the dice would progress under some standard multiclass scenarios.
Hope this helps.
It does indeed, especially the confirmation that Beyond 's method is a stopgap during their rush to get everything Tasha'd, rather than the intended way of doing it.
And this is even before reading the full write up that you linked!
Edit: So, according to the write up, the dice gains and options are treated differently? The dice do not mix, the options do?
All me Hombews:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WUnYn1tRvbkKOPpAkWOVlpe2S3JVLpV_LDOVzKG2DgQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
They really cocked up the psi sub classes. 2x PB is simply not enough psi dice for either class to function worth a damn below a PB of 5. Shame they ruined both of these in their final printing.
Well, looks like Crawford has issued some clarity: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1331690537791803394
A Psi Warrior/Soulknife multiclass has two separate pools of Psionic Energy dice. Each one is for the exclusive use of the class that grants it(so you cannot use your Psi Warrior dice for Soulknife abilities and vice versa). So the number of dice in each pool will scale based on overall level(i.e. proficiency bonus), but the size of those dice will scale based on class level. Meaning a Psi Warrior 4/Soul Knife 6 will have a pool of eight d6's for Psi Warrior abilities, and eight d8's for Soulknife abilities.
So a 10/10 soulknife/psi warrior will have 24 dice (12 each at d8?) but a straight class at 20th level will only have 12 total at d12?
A psi warrior 3/soul knife 3/warlock 14 will also have 24 dice (12 for PW, 12 for SK) but they would be d6’s. This just sounds off to me.
The idea, I think, is that adding the different sources is what is off.
10/10 does NOT have "24", but "12 and 12", with there being a difference between those two being neccessary.
A 3/3/3 therefore does NOT have 24, they have 12 and 12 still.
All me Hombews:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WUnYn1tRvbkKOPpAkWOVlpe2S3JVLpV_LDOVzKG2DgQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
All of this was what I was warning about with these class features that scale off of Proficiency instead of class level or Ability modifier.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
I did mention that the 24 dice are split 12 each. It just seems odd to me that a single class with the Psi dice will have max of 12, but taking a 3 level dip in one class that uses these die, also nets you 12 die. But if you multiclass in two classes that use them you double the number of dice (yes you have to keep them separate) And if they add another subclass in the future that uses the same mechanic you could multiclass 3/3/3 and have would have 8/8/8 psi dice (24) to use.
I think it would make more sense that your psi dice would be 2xprof bonus (which is based on character level) and you can use them to fuel any feature that uses them, but the size of the die would be determined by the class itself.
So you could spend all your dice on your soulknife abilities or all on your psi warrior abilities or split them up however you like. But a soulknife 3/psi warrior 17 would have 12 dice to use, but if you use it for a soulknife ability the die you roll would be d6 and if you used a die for a psi warrior ability it would be d12.And you can regain 1 as a bonus action (this ability wouldn't stack from both classes) and all on a long rest.
Edit: I guess this is one of the pitfalls of using the proficiency bonus mechanic to scale abilities, although I really like this mechanic and wish it was errata'd into other classes, like maybe the Samurai fighting spirit based on PB instead of a flat 3/long rest. Or other classes that use the ability score modifier/short or long rest.
Why is anyone concerned that a psi knight/Soul blade would get two separate pools to use on their abilities?
A battle master/warlock will have spells and manouver dice.
A battle master/soul blade will have psi dice and manouver dice.
Multiple resource pools that can't be used by the other class is nothing new, this just feels off because both class pools have the same name which may be a bit awkward at the table.
Whether scaling off proficiency is unbalanced is another question entirely.