8th level cleric just stomps all over an 8th level barbarian using heavy armor (due to heavily armored feat), Guardian of Faith and Spirit Guardians.
It hardly seems fair.
Sure its not fighter or rogue level damage, but dang.
Kind of reminds me of when Tanis and company got stomped by that evil cleric.
Anything will stomp on an 8th level Barbarian using heavy armor, Barbarians shouldn't be using heavy armor as a Barbarian can not rage while wearing heavy armor, irrelevant of it they have the proficiency for it or not. When you give up your literal best class feature for a probably +1AC increase... it's not good. Barbarian can match heavy armour by getting a +3 Dex modifier and medium armor master, if really wanting the AC but that is not the best way to build barbarian.
Additionally, you list two spells that require an action, Spirit Guardians is a concentration spell and easily lost in such an encounter while Guardian of Faith doesn't move and has a maximum damage it can inflict. Barbarian is usually winning the initiative roll and so the Barbarian should be getting in at least 4 attacks before both spells are up, assuming a 60% chance to hit, with rage and a subclass such as berserker. Assuming a +1 Greatsword, the Cleric should be taking around...
4*(0.6*(4+2+1)+0.65*2d6)+2*(0.65+0.4*0.65)*2d6) = That is around 61 damage
A level 8 cleric should have 59 HP (or around 55HP if rolled), so Barbarian most likely takes a Cleric down in 2 rounds with the cleric getting literally only a single turn of combat to do anything. The cleric does have a bonus action but the limitation on one levelled spell per turn means the cleric can not cast healing word while also casting either Guardian of Faith or Spirit Creatures.
The reasons you saw cleric win here are obviously two-fold.
1) the barbarian wore heavy armor, Barbarians should never wear heavy armor
2) the barbarian fought against the cleric on the cleric's terms, never fight on your enemies terms if you can help it. The cleric obviously would have cast Guardian of Fight prior to start of the fight and that is a huge boon as it's free action economy in a game where action economy is huge.
In a combat on the barbarian's terms using either no armor or medium armor, the Cleric does not stand a chance. There is a caster/martial divide but that is more for Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock who can obliterate their opponents from range, even Druid can too some degree but Cleric is slightly lacking in that area. Cleric is a very strong class but in a straight up fight it's not doing that well.
No the barbarian is not wearing heavy armor, the cleric was using heavy armor due to a feat (AC 21 from +1 plate and a normal shield).
The spell damage is not affected by rage resistance.
This is 2024 rules, Guardian of Faith is just a normal 4th level spell with casting time of 1 action.
Cleric has 83hp due to 17 con (only con and wis are decent).
83HP? The maximum possible would be 88, did the cleric perhaps take toughness as an origin feat? But the only background that gives that is Farmer and Farmer does not give Wisdom. that HP is suspicious.
Why would the cleric use a feat to get heavy armor, they can take the protector feature from Divine Order? But anyways, I can see more of what you're talking about now. With a +1 weapon, +3 PB, +4 ability modifier, the barbarian should have a +8 At level 9, it'll be a +4 PB and it's possible at 8 to get a +5 ability modifier.
Again regarding spell damage, the cleric still has to cast the spells and Barbarian has advantage on initiative so Barbarian is more likely than not going first.
The barbarian at a +8 vs. 21 AC is going to rage and reckless attack, that is a 13 to hit, that is still a 64% chance to hit and a 9.75% chance to critical. I messed up earlier when putting numbers into the calculator but this should be 26.306 DPR. That should still be the cleric down in 3 turns.
Now the Cleric casts, Guardian of Faith and Spirit Guardians? Assuming best scenario.
Spirit Guardians does 4d8 (as 4th level spell) for an average 18 DPR, meanwhile Guardian of Faith 20 damage.
Now based on saves, With 17 Wis the cleric would have a save DC of 3+3+10 for 16, assuming Barbarian has a +2 DEX modifier, that's a 14 saves, or 35% chance to save or average DPR . So the DPR would be an average DPR of 31.35. Barbarian with a +3 CON modifier would have 85 HP, That should be the Barbarian going down in 3 rounds, If the cleric gets both up in the first round. In a fair competition, that isn't happening and we are ignoring concentration checks on Spirit Guardians too.
Overall in a fair contest, Barbarian wins more often than not in my opinion in such a contest.
Yes the tough feat, and assuming the Guardian of Faith is first, then the first round of Spirit Guardians hits twice, once on clerics turn when cast, again on the barbarians turn.
Alright, so my testing is not off, cleric is formidable against melee opponents.
Going by the ‘24 iteration of the class and subclasses we’ve got two subclasses with even more damage on their attacks, one that gains temp HP at the start of a Rage, and one that can gain resistance to both radiant and necrotic damage, just for starters. All of that by 8th. And that’s without accounting for the Barb having Savage Attacker or Tough as their own origin feat. Barbs are very good at both soaking damage and dishing it out in melee. Honestly, a Cleric would be better served trying to kite and use spells like Hold Person or Spiritual Weapon alongside Guiding Bolt or an appropriate Domain Spell over Guardian of Faith and Spirit Guardians.
Yes the tough feat, and assuming the Guardian of Faith is first, then the first round of Spirit Guardians hits twice, once on clerics turn when cast, again on the barbarians turn.
Spirit Guardians has concentration, if the Barbarian hits that is a minimum DC10 concentration saving throw and a good chance the first hit on a round can be higher. If the barbarian additionally critical hits on the first attack (9.75% chance to do so), the DC can exceed 20 in which case the Cleric is highly likely to lose concentration. Spirit Guardians only does damage on the Barbarian's turn if the Barbarian ends their turn in it and with the concentration throws, that is definitely not a tactic I'd like to rely on. Additionally it depends on the feat choice for the Barbarian.
War Cleric can forgo the concentration but that is a 3rd level spirit guardians instead of 4th level spirit guardians, so it is doing slightly less damage. Overall the Barbarian is basically still getting their damage out before the cleric in most times such an encounter is played out.
Honestly, a Cleric would be better served trying to kite and use spells like Hold Person or Spiritual Weapon alongside Guiding Bolt or an appropriate Domain Spell over Guardian of Faith and Spirit Guardians.
I would agree with this, but a Barbarian will outpace a cleric fast (40 foot vs 30 foot), Hold Person is a cleric's best bet, make range and try and force the barbarian to fight on your terms or run away. If the Barbarian gets away however a cleric is basically not catching up while if the cleric runs away the Barbarian may end out catching up...
Concentration spells are fragile even with Warcaster, which by the description of this fight, the cleric would not have. So the barbarian should be easily breaking any conc spells.
Also assumes no subclass for the barbarian. Wild Barbarian has resistance to different spell damage types. Berserker is going to be doing a lot more damage breaking conc pretty much every time he hits. World tree would be knocking the Cleric prone continually.
Why does the cleric have toughness and not the barbarian? Why doesn't the barbarian have high CON too?
The original scenario so pretty weighted in the Clerics favor.
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8th level cleric just stomps all over an 8th level barbarian using heavy armor (due to heavily armored feat), Guardian of Faith and Spirit Guardians.
It hardly seems fair.
Sure its not fighter or rogue level damage, but dang.
Kind of reminds me of when Tanis and company got stomped by that evil cleric.
Anything will stomp on an 8th level Barbarian using heavy armor, Barbarians shouldn't be using heavy armor as a Barbarian can not rage while wearing heavy armor, irrelevant of it they have the proficiency for it or not. When you give up your literal best class feature for a probably +1AC increase... it's not good. Barbarian can match heavy armour by getting a +3 Dex modifier and medium armor master, if really wanting the AC but that is not the best way to build barbarian.
Additionally, you list two spells that require an action, Spirit Guardians is a concentration spell and easily lost in such an encounter while Guardian of Faith doesn't move and has a maximum damage it can inflict. Barbarian is usually winning the initiative roll and so the Barbarian should be getting in at least 4 attacks before both spells are up, assuming a 60% chance to hit, with rage and a subclass such as berserker. Assuming a +1 Greatsword, the Cleric should be taking around...
4*(0.6*(4+2+1)+0.65*2d6)+2*(0.65+0.4*0.65)*2d6) = That is around 61 damage
A level 8 cleric should have 59 HP (or around 55HP if rolled), so Barbarian most likely takes a Cleric down in 2 rounds with the cleric getting literally only a single turn of combat to do anything. The cleric does have a bonus action but the limitation on one levelled spell per turn means the cleric can not cast healing word while also casting either Guardian of Faith or Spirit Creatures.
The reasons you saw cleric win here are obviously two-fold.
1) the barbarian wore heavy armor, Barbarians should never wear heavy armor
2) the barbarian fought against the cleric on the cleric's terms, never fight on your enemies terms if you can help it. The cleric obviously would have cast Guardian of Fight prior to start of the fight and that is a huge boon as it's free action economy in a game where action economy is huge.
In a combat on the barbarian's terms using either no armor or medium armor, the Cleric does not stand a chance. There is a caster/martial divide but that is more for Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock who can obliterate their opponents from range, even Druid can too some degree but Cleric is slightly lacking in that area. Cleric is a very strong class but in a straight up fight it's not doing that well.
No the barbarian is not wearing heavy armor, the cleric was using heavy armor due to a feat (AC 21 from +1 plate and a normal shield).
The spell damage is not affected by rage resistance.
This is 2024 rules, Guardian of Faith is just a normal 4th level spell with casting time of 1 action.
Cleric has 83hp due to 17 con (only con and wis are decent).
83HP? The maximum possible would be 88, did the cleric perhaps take toughness as an origin feat? But the only background that gives that is Farmer and Farmer does not give Wisdom. that HP is suspicious.
Why would the cleric use a feat to get heavy armor, they can take the protector feature from Divine Order? But anyways, I can see more of what you're talking about now. With a +1 weapon, +3 PB, +4 ability modifier, the barbarian should have a +8 At level 9, it'll be a +4 PB and it's possible at 8 to get a +5 ability modifier.
Again regarding spell damage, the cleric still has to cast the spells and Barbarian has advantage on initiative so Barbarian is more likely than not going first.
The barbarian at a +8 vs. 21 AC is going to rage and reckless attack, that is a 13 to hit, that is still a 64% chance to hit and a 9.75% chance to critical. I messed up earlier when putting numbers into the calculator but this should be 26.306 DPR. That should still be the cleric down in 3 turns.
Now the Cleric casts, Guardian of Faith and Spirit Guardians? Assuming best scenario.
Spirit Guardians does 4d8 (as 4th level spell) for an average 18 DPR, meanwhile Guardian of Faith 20 damage.
Now based on saves, With 17 Wis the cleric would have a save DC of 3+3+10 for 16, assuming Barbarian has a +2 DEX modifier, that's a 14 saves, or 35% chance to save or average DPR . So the DPR would be an average DPR of 31.35. Barbarian with a +3 CON modifier would have 85 HP, That should be the Barbarian going down in 3 rounds, If the cleric gets both up in the first round. In a fair competition, that isn't happening and we are ignoring concentration checks on Spirit Guardians too.
Overall in a fair contest, Barbarian wins more often than not in my opinion in such a contest.
Yes the tough feat, and assuming the Guardian of Faith is first, then the first round of Spirit Guardians hits twice, once on clerics turn when cast, again on the barbarians turn.
Alright, so my testing is not off, cleric is formidable against melee opponents.
Going by the ‘24 iteration of the class and subclasses we’ve got two subclasses with even more damage on their attacks, one that gains temp HP at the start of a Rage, and one that can gain resistance to both radiant and necrotic damage, just for starters. All of that by 8th. And that’s without accounting for the Barb having Savage Attacker or Tough as their own origin feat. Barbs are very good at both soaking damage and dishing it out in melee. Honestly, a Cleric would be better served trying to kite and use spells like Hold Person or Spiritual Weapon alongside Guiding Bolt or an appropriate Domain Spell over Guardian of Faith and Spirit Guardians.
Spirit Guardians has concentration, if the Barbarian hits that is a minimum DC10 concentration saving throw and a good chance the first hit on a round can be higher. If the barbarian additionally critical hits on the first attack (9.75% chance to do so), the DC can exceed 20 in which case the Cleric is highly likely to lose concentration. Spirit Guardians only does damage on the Barbarian's turn if the Barbarian ends their turn in it and with the concentration throws, that is definitely not a tactic I'd like to rely on. Additionally it depends on the feat choice for the Barbarian.
War Cleric can forgo the concentration but that is a 3rd level spirit guardians instead of 4th level spirit guardians, so it is doing slightly less damage. Overall the Barbarian is basically still getting their damage out before the cleric in most times such an encounter is played out.
I would agree with this, but a Barbarian will outpace a cleric fast (40 foot vs 30 foot), Hold Person is a cleric's best bet, make range and try and force the barbarian to fight on your terms or run away. If the Barbarian gets away however a cleric is basically not catching up while if the cleric runs away the Barbarian may end out catching up...
I believe (under decent conditions) that a druid could beat a barbarian. I have tested something similar (lv. 6 vs fighter) and it wasn't even close.
Concentration spells are fragile even with Warcaster, which by the description of this fight, the cleric would not have. So the barbarian should be easily breaking any conc spells.
Also assumes no subclass for the barbarian. Wild Barbarian has resistance to different spell damage types. Berserker is going to be doing a lot more damage breaking conc pretty much every time he hits. World tree would be knocking the Cleric prone continually.
Why does the cleric have toughness and not the barbarian? Why doesn't the barbarian have high CON too?
The original scenario so pretty weighted in the Clerics favor.