probably a dum question, but, if you crit with a vicious rapier and have the piercer feat, how many dice are you rolling for the crit?
regular die for rapier 1d8 piercing
vicious on a crit adds +2d6 piercing
Piercer feat last bullet point: When you score a critical hit that deals piercing damage to a creature, you can roll one additional damage die when determining the extra piercing damage the target takes.
Critical Hits
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal.
So, would it be; 1d8 regular + 1d8 normal crit + 1d8 piercer + 2d6 vicious? or would it be: 1d8 regular + 1d8 normal crit + 1d8 piercer + 2d6 vicious + 1d6 piercer? or some other miscellaneous thing? I tried searching the googles, sage advice and the forums here but didn't find the specific question, my google-fu might be off.
Extra bonus dum question: w-what if you're a barbarian half-orc doing all the things above?
the power hungry monstrous pc in me wants alllllll the dice. the dm in me fears imma have to just max the tarrasque's hp for it to survive a round of pc's w/ vicious rapiers. lol.
I don't recall Vicious ever dealing 2d6 bonus on a crit.
With a Vicious Rapier and the Piercer feat, you'd deal 1d8 (base) plus 1d8 (critical) plus 1d8 (Piercer) plus 7 plus strength/dex on a critical. If the character was a half-orc, they'd add 1d8 more damage to that.
Vicious is, quite frankly, one of the weakest weapon enchantments available. It's inferior to a +1 weapon of the same type, nevermind a +2.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
ah.... interesting. i thought i looked here in dnd beyond but apparently i was just looking in roll20. which still has it as 2d6 in the compendium as of this writing. thanks fam good to know. i figured it would be crazy overpowered if it did multiple extra damage die.
The feat specifies that when you roll a critical hit, you can roll one additional damage die for the weapon. Even if Vicious dealt an extra 2d6 damage on a crit, those aren't weapon damage dice so you wouldn't roll an additional one from Piercer for them.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Vicious is, quite frankly, one of the weakest weapon enchantments available. It's inferior to a +1 weapon of the same type, nevermind a +2.
5e has a history of overrating critical bonuses. It needs somewhere around a 4x normal odds of critting (say, an elven accuracy/champion setup with a source of advantage) to outperform a +1 weapon.
And that setup doesn't benefit from a Vicious or Vorpal weapon, since the effects say "when you roll a 20 on the attack roll" rather than "when you roll a critical hit" so the Champion's expanded crit range doesn't work with them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
And that setup doesn't benefit from a Vicious or Vorpal weapon, since the effects say "when you roll a 20 on the attack roll" rather than "when you roll a critical hit" so the Champion's expanded crit range doesn't work with them.
Huh. I missed that. Okay, there are essentially zero builds for which vicious is better than +1; vicious maxes at +0.998 dpr (elven accuracy with advantage), a +1 weapon adds 1x hit chance (typically about 0.7) + 0.05 * average damage (typically at least 0.5) for a total of 1.2 or so.
Would like to re-open this topic considering the new 2024 rules on Vicious weapons.
Since it says now that it does +2d6 of the weapon damage type. If you crit with it, using a new example... a barbarian with Brutal Critical ability for being 9th level
Since it says the vicious weapon does the same damage as the weapon damage, and obviously seems to be just an extension of the weapons base damage, is it calculated this way?
Makes a crit extremely deadly in this scenario (average damage not counting ability stat bonus): 42. (the secret of life Douglas).
Thanks for your insights fellow nerds!
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-Nate the Knife
"You are neither beer nor gems." -dismissive Dwarven saying.
Well, brutal critical doesn't exist in 2024. Vicious weapon is probably overpowered for a Rare (I'd set it to 1d8 as a rare, 2d6 would be appropriate for a Very Rare).
Would like to re-open this topic considering the new 2024 rules on Vicious weapons.
Since it says now that it does +2d6 of the weapon damage type. If you crit with it, using a new example... a barbarian with Brutal Critical ability for being 9th level
Since it says the vicious weapon does the same damage as the weapon damage, and obviously seems to be just an extension of the weapons base damage, is it calculated this way?
Makes a crit extremely deadly in this scenario (average damage not counting ability stat bonus): 42. (the secret of life Douglas).
Thanks for your insights fellow nerds!
Nice damage yes... but
A 9th level wizard has a 5th level spell slot, 3 each for 4th ~ 2nd level, and 4 1st level slots.
Yes, Cone of Cold is extremely powerful, but it's difficult to use without hitting your allies due to its huge area of effect, and you have a serious limit on the number of times you can actually use it per day.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'm pro wizard myself, but just want to make sure... that damage calculation is correct? You add in the Vicious weapon damage with each hit... for that matter since Flame Tongue came up, it would be added in as well yes?
Guess that makes sense.
Thanks all.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Nate the Knife
"You are neither beer nor gems." -dismissive Dwarven saying.
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probably a dum question, but, if you crit with a vicious rapier and have the piercer feat, how many dice are you rolling for the crit?
regular die for rapier 1d8 piercing
vicious on a crit adds +2d6 piercing
Piercer feat last bullet point: When you score a critical hit that deals piercing damage to a creature, you can roll one additional damage die when determining the extra piercing damage the target takes.
Critical Hits
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal.
So, would it be; 1d8 regular + 1d8 normal crit + 1d8 piercer + 2d6 vicious? or would it be: 1d8 regular + 1d8 normal crit + 1d8 piercer + 2d6 vicious + 1d6 piercer? or some other miscellaneous thing? I tried searching the googles, sage advice and the forums here but didn't find the specific question, my google-fu might be off.
Extra bonus dum question: w-what if you're a barbarian half-orc doing all the things above?
the power hungry monstrous pc in me wants alllllll the dice. the dm in me fears imma have to just max the tarrasque's hp for it to survive a round of pc's w/ vicious rapiers. lol.
thanks in advance fam!
Vicious got errata'd to 7 to clear that up (which is kinda boring, but makes it clear that they weren't intending the bonus dice to themselves crit).
I don't recall Vicious ever dealing 2d6 bonus on a crit.
With a Vicious Rapier and the Piercer feat, you'd deal 1d8 (base) plus 1d8 (critical) plus 1d8 (Piercer) plus 7 plus strength/dex on a critical. If the character was a half-orc, they'd add 1d8 more damage to that.
Vicious is, quite frankly, one of the weakest weapon enchantments available. It's inferior to a +1 weapon of the same type, nevermind a +2.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
ah.... interesting. i thought i looked here in dnd beyond but apparently i was just looking in roll20. which still has it as 2d6 in the compendium as of this writing. thanks fam good to know. i figured it would be crazy overpowered if it did multiple extra damage die.
The feat specifies that when you roll a critical hit, you can roll one additional damage die for the weapon. Even if Vicious dealt an extra 2d6 damage on a crit, those aren't weapon damage dice so you wouldn't roll an additional one from Piercer for them.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
5e has a history of overrating critical bonuses. It needs somewhere around a 4x normal odds of critting (say, an elven accuracy/champion setup with a source of advantage) to outperform a +1 weapon.
And that setup doesn't benefit from a Vicious or Vorpal weapon, since the effects say "when you roll a 20 on the attack roll" rather than "when you roll a critical hit" so the Champion's expanded crit range doesn't work with them.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Huh. I missed that. Okay, there are essentially zero builds for which vicious is better than +1; vicious maxes at +0.998 dpr (elven accuracy with advantage), a +1 weapon adds 1x hit chance (typically about 0.7) + 0.05 * average damage (typically at least 0.5) for a total of 1.2 or so.
Would like to re-open this topic considering the new 2024 rules on Vicious weapons.
Since it says now that it does +2d6 of the weapon damage type. If you crit with it, using a new example... a barbarian with Brutal Critical ability for being 9th level
Maul Crit: 2d6 (regular damage) + 2d6 vicious weapon + 2d6 (crit damage) + another 2d6 vicious weapon damage? + 2d6 (Brutal Critical) + a 3rd 2d6 Vicious weapon damage?
Since it says the vicious weapon does the same damage as the weapon damage, and obviously seems to be just an extension of the weapons base damage, is it calculated this way?
Makes a crit extremely deadly in this scenario (average damage not counting ability stat bonus): 42. (the secret of life Douglas).
Thanks for your insights fellow nerds!
-Nate the Knife
"You are neither beer nor gems." -dismissive Dwarven saying.
Well, brutal critical doesn't exist in 2024. Vicious weapon is probably overpowered for a Rare (I'd set it to 1d8 as a rare, 2d6 would be appropriate for a Very Rare).
Yeah, it's turned into a strictly better Flame Tongue unless you're fighting a troll.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yeah, having light is not worth attunement.
Not with a damage type that significantly more enemies are immune or resistant to.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Nice damage yes... but
A 9th level wizard has a 5th level spell slot, 3 each for 4th ~ 2nd level, and 4 1st level slots.
Which means they can:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2619042-cone-of-cold
Yes, Cone of Cold is extremely powerful, but it's difficult to use without hitting your allies due to its huge area of effect, and you have a serious limit on the number of times you can actually use it per day.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'm pro wizard myself, but just want to make sure... that damage calculation is correct? You add in the Vicious weapon damage with each hit... for that matter since Flame Tongue came up, it would be added in as well yes?
Guess that makes sense.
Thanks all.
-Nate the Knife
"You are neither beer nor gems." -dismissive Dwarven saying.