The Echo Knight is an awesome and fun class that opens up a bunch of great tactical options and roleplaying potential. However, of all the classes in the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, it is one of the most problematic rules-wise. There are gaps, complexities, and a number of misunderstanding that arise as a result.
For my own purposes, and to address my many questions, I started a Unofficial Echo Knight F.A.Q. (frequently asked questions) to help clarify the Rules As Written and as Intended. The the fact that the class needs a FAQ, or that it is long as it is, can somewhat telling.
However, what I'm most curious about now is how to address or fix those complexities and questions. If you are a DM, how would you rule on or run an Echo Knight at your table? And how come?
The goal of this post is to collect some of the different ideas and rules DMs are using at their table, to be a reference for your table should you need them. Thoughts, ideas?
My proposal, I would love to receive feedback and ideas to implement this class in table. I would only change the wording of the Manifest Echo section:
Manifest Echo
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you’re incapacitated.
Your echo has AC 14 + your proficiency bonus, 1 hit point, and immunity to all conditions. If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll. It is the same size as you, and it occupies its space. On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required). If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
You can use the echo in the following ways:
As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
For each melee attack performed by the fighter, the reach of the knight is amplified with the eight squares around the echo, wherever it is. Any bonus to an attack that uses the echo range will be calculated as if the fighter is in the echo position.
For each ranged attack performed by the fighter, the fighter must choose if it originates from the fighter position or the echo position. Any bonus to an attack that uses the echo position will be calculated as if the fighter is in the echo position. Regardless of where the ranged attack comes from, there should be line of sight from origin position to target.
Any trigger that would allow a reaction in the eight squares around the echo, triggers a reaction as if the fighter is in the echo position.
For each melee or ranged attack performed by the fighter, the fighter must choose if it originates from the fighter space or the echo space, wherever it is. Any bonus to an attack that uses the echo space will be calculated as if the fighter were in the echo space. Regardless of which space the attack comes from, there must be line of sight from origin space to target.
Any trigger that would allow a reaction from the fighter if he were in the echo space, triggers a reaction like the fighter were in the echo space. If the same effect triggers the same reaction at the same time in both space, the fighter must choose where react, in fighter space or in echo space, since only have one reaction. Any roll or roll bonus subject to the reaction that happens in echo space, will be calculated as if the fighter were in the echo space.
With this wording only three FAQ comes to my mind:
Multiclass Echo fighter/Barbarian using reckless attack through his echo, are the echo, the fighter, or both giving advantage to attacks against them?
The attack is performed by the fighter, so is only the fighter who offers advantage.
When grappling as an attack action through the echo, is movement of the echo allowed?
Yes. It only could move 15 feet in any direction, free move on the x-y axes; rising through z axis would load the weight of the creature caught on the fighter during the grapple, maybe causing him to be encumbered depending the size of the grappled creature. Maintaining the grapple requires the fighter to maintain the grapple conditions (at least one free hand and be within reach of the grappled creature, either through its reach or the reach added by the echo fighters space or echo space).
What about non combat interactions?
With the exception of teleportation and the level 7 feature "Echo Avatar", there is no other out-of-combat interaction. The echo cannot transport or interact objects or creatures, stealth, disable traps or provide any other additional benefits.
Echo is a manifestation of a timeline that never existed. In that timeline your fighter would be in the space where the player placed the echo, the dunamis magic that the fighter is able to channel only has the power to allow the attacks that he would have made if he was in that timeline.
"For each melee attack performed by the fighter, the reach of the knight is amplified with the eight squares around the echo, wherever it is. Any bonus to an attack that uses the echo range will be calculated as if the fighter is in the echo position."
The 8 squares language would have to be removed to just say your attacks come from your location or the echo. This change, as written, means a fighter cant use a reach/ranged weapon through the Echo. Not to mention what the 8 squares language does to theater of the mind.
The 8 squares language would have to be removed to just say your attacks come from your location or the echo. This change, as written, means a fighter cant use a reach/ranged weapon through the Echo. Not to mention what the 8 squares language does to theater of the mind.
Thanks for the feedback!!
Limiting the use of reach weapons was intentional, ranged attacks have their own line. I take the contribution on "eight squares around the echo", it can bring confusion for not being the usual wording ... If I eliminate that reference and allow weapons with range trait, we leave something like this:
For each melee attack performed by the fighter, the reach of the knight is amplified with the eight squares around the echo, wherever it is. Any bonus to an attack that uses the echo range will be calculated as if the fighter is in the echo position.
For each ranged attack performed by the fighter, the fighter must choose if it originates from the fighter position or the echo position. Any bonus to an attack that uses the echo position will be calculated as if the fighter is in the echo position. Regardless of where the ranged attack comes from, there should be line of sight from origin position to target.
Any trigger that would allow a reaction in the eight squares around the echo, triggers a reaction as if the fighter is in the echo position.
For each melee or ranged attack performed by the fighter, the fighter must choose if it originates from the fighter space or the echo space, wherever it is. Any bonus to an attack that uses the echo space will be calculated as if the fighter were in the echo space. Regardless of which space the attack comes from, there must be line of sight from origin space to target.
Any trigger that would allow a reaction from the fighter if he were in the echo space, triggers a reaction like the fighter were in the echo space. If the same effect triggers the same reaction at the same time in both space, the fighter must choose where react, in fighter space or in echo space, since only have one reaction. Any roll or roll bonus subject to the reaction that happens in echo space, will be calculated as if the fighter were in the echo space.
I think a lot of the problems with the echo knight come from the rather poor decision to make the echo an object, which means that a lot of how you need to run it is distinctly counter-intuitive because of the way 5e handles objects. The other main problem is that it's overpowered. It gives you effectively unlimited misty step, most of the scouting abilities of find familiar with 10 times the range and if it gets killed takes a bonus action to replace instead of an hour. There's also only 1 other fighter subclass that gets unlimited use of it's main feature and that's the brute, who's feature is it hits harder.
My fix would be the following:
Treat it like an illusion rather than an object. It doesn't occupy a space, but it's a space you can choose to occupy for attacking and teleporting. For either of these it needs to be in a space large enough for you to occupy e.g. 5ftx5ft if you're small/medium etc. This then fits with not provoking opportunity attacks, if you can move through the space etc.
Because it's an illusion it doesn't have hp or AC and doesn't need to make saves.
Limit the echo to go only where you can go. If you can fly (even if this is granted by an item) then it can fly, otherwise it's grounded.
As it's an echo of you it benefits from any equipment you're wearing when you use Echo Avatar
Limit the echo to be summoned a number of times equal to your con bonus, refreshing on a short rest.
The echo lasts for 10 minutes, or until you dismiss it, you end your turn with it more than 30ft away, you manifest another echo or you are incapacitated.
Unleash Incarnation changes so that you're attacking from both your space and the echo at the same time. Additionally, if you use it with Legion of One you can attack from all 3 positions at the same time
Because it's no longer an object, Shadow Martyr now means that you're interposing yourself in the attack. The echo will end up in the new place.
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My proposal, I would love to receive feedback and ideas to implement this class in table. I would only change the wording of the Manifest Echo section:
Manifest Echo
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you’re incapacitated.
Your echo has AC 14 + your proficiency bonus, 1 hit point, and immunity to all conditions. If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll. It is the same size as you, and it occupies its space. On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required). If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
You can use the echo in the following ways:
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.For each melee attack performed by the fighter, the reach of the knight is amplified with the eight squares around the echo, wherever it is. Any bonus to an attack that uses the echo range will be calculated as if the fighter is in the echo position.For each ranged attack performed by the fighter, the fighter must choose if it originates from the fighter position or the echo position. Any bonus to an attack that uses the echo position will be calculated as if the fighter is in the echo position. Regardless of where the ranged attack comes from, there should be line of sight from origin position to target.Any trigger that would allow a reaction in the eight squares around the echo, triggers a reaction as if the fighter is in the echo position.With this wording only three FAQ comes to my mind:
The attack is performed by the fighter, so is only the fighter who offers advantage.
Yes. It only could move 15 feet in any direction, free move on the x-y axes; rising through z axis would load the weight of the creature caught on the fighter during the grapple, maybe causing him to be encumbered depending the size of the grappled creature. Maintaining the grapple requires the fighter to maintain the grapple conditions (at least one free hand and be within reach of the grappled creature, either through
its reach or the reach added by the echofighters space or echo space).With the exception of teleportation and the level 7 feature "Echo Avatar", there is no other out-of-combat interaction. The echo cannot transport or interact objects or creatures, stealth, disable traps or provide any other additional benefits.
Echo is a manifestation of a timeline that never existed. In that timeline your fighter would be in the space where the player placed the echo, the dunamis magic that the fighter is able to channel only has the power to allow the attacks that he would have made if he was in that timeline.
Thank you for reading, any thougths? :)
"For each melee attack performed by the fighter, the reach of the knight is amplified with the eight squares around the echo, wherever it is. Any bonus to an attack that uses the echo range will be calculated as if the fighter is in the echo position."
The 8 squares language would have to be removed to just say your attacks come from your location or the echo. This change, as written, means a fighter cant use a reach/ranged weapon through the Echo. Not to mention what the 8 squares language does to theater of the mind.
Thanks for the feedback!!
Limiting the use of reach weapons was intentional, ranged attacks have their own line. I take the contribution on "eight squares around the echo", it can bring confusion for not being the usual wording ... If I eliminate that reference and allow weapons with range trait, we leave something like this:
(First writing edited with this changes)
I think a lot of the problems with the echo knight come from the rather poor decision to make the echo an object, which means that a lot of how you need to run it is distinctly counter-intuitive because of the way 5e handles objects. The other main problem is that it's overpowered. It gives you effectively unlimited misty step, most of the scouting abilities of find familiar with 10 times the range and if it gets killed takes a bonus action to replace instead of an hour. There's also only 1 other fighter subclass that gets unlimited use of it's main feature and that's the brute, who's feature is it hits harder.
My fix would be the following: