Hey there! I am a moderately experienced D&D player, but it’s my first time playing a paladin! I am very excited but hoping to seek some advice from those who have played an Oath of Vengeance paladin before. TLDR at bottom if you’d prefer
The campaign I am in is/was a no-magic campaign, so my character was originally a variant human battlemaster fighter running a maul and great weapon master. However, a magical event happened at level 6 that magically changes the characters and allows the players to “re-spec” their characters to classes that allow for magic. So, I am coming into paladin at level 6.
I would like to keep my build and character thematically close to what she was. So, I am keeping the great weapon master feat, picking great weapon fighting style from paladin, and paladin also grants me a second attack at level 5 like I gained from fighter. Party wise, I am generally the biggest damage per turn, and I am planning to maintain that offensive play style while a paladin.
The area I seek advice on is mostly in regards to spells. So so many of the spells are concentration based, which is fine. But with access to Hunters Mark through Vengeance—which also takes concentration—I am always asking myself if one of my other concentration spells could be more important somehow.
I would assume that since Hunters Mark applies any time I do damage, and since I can attack twice per turn (three times using a bonus action if I crit or knock something to 0hp because of great weapon master)—that Hunter’s Mark additional damage makes it the best use of my concentration. And perhaps I can use the other spells like Shield of Faith, Heroism, etc on a situational/need basis? But is this right? When does Hunter’s Mark’s utility drop off (when I get Haste at 9 maybe?)?
My CHA is only a +3, so my saving throw for an enemy to avoid something like Bane isn’t super high. So, I’m thinking I should stick to things that affect friendlies and/or can’t be resisted. But is Hunter’s Mark truly the best soak of my concentration right now at level 6?
TLDR: Is Hunters Mark the best use of my concentration for a paladin doing 2 (potentially 3) attacks per round, and at what level do you think my concentration is better spent on something else?
Hunters mark, imo, is pretty iffy at all. If you use the spell slot to smite, it triggers after you hit and will do 2d8 damage guaranteed. Hunters mark, you use the slot, you may hit, and you may miss. Even if you hit on every attack, it takes hitting 3 times to make the damage better than the smite damage. In theory, you can keep it going for an hour, but in practice, you’ll have it for only 1 fight.
So your choice is smite for a guaranteed 2d8, or hunters mark for maybe a bit more, if you don’t lose concentration and you make your to hit rolls. It’s just kind of risky. And it’s concentration, where something like shield of faith is guaranteed to work, and would also apply to your steed, can be a way better use of concentration. But really, in the end, other than find steed, you’ll probably just use all you spell slots for smiting.
Don't listen to Xalthu. Paladin are spellcasters, so don't be afraid to use those slots for casting spells. You'll have access to lots of good ones. Yes, Divine Smite is an option, but it's often not the best option. And, if you'll permit, I want to get something out of the way. You have a spell save DC of 14, and a +3 bonus to all of your saving throws. For a secondary statistic, this is fine for 6th-level. With that out of the way, let's get down to brass tacks.
Great Weapon Master and hunter's mark are great on their own, but they're competing for your bonus action. If you drop an enemy with an attack, you have to choose between making another attack without the extra 1d6 or moving the spell to another target. You're probably better off with the Dueling or Protection styles; if you're sticking to the PHB. And if you look at Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, all three of those fighting styles (Blessed Warrior, Blind Fighting, and Interception) are solid choices.
This is where your previous build and concept for the character brushes up against the realities of your character's new class. War Caster might be a better feat, but it would have to take the place of your 4th-level ASI. Which means you'd need a new 1st-level feat. Setting aside the possibility of acquiring a cantrip like sacred flame with Blessed Warrior, War Caster would also let you cast hold person (one of your 2nd-level spells) against any humanoid that provokes an Opportunity Attack from you. Plus, you really don't want to lose concentration. You have a lot of good spells with not a lot of spell slots. And if both hands are occupied with a weapon and shield, then you can still cast all your spells no problem.
If you don't mind being forced to choose, then you're good as you are. But it is a concern I think you should be made aware of.
Something else to note is hunter's mark isn't just for dealing damage. It also grants you advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check to find the target, so don't neglect your Wisdom. And, ideally, you want to have proficiency in at least one of those two skills. It's possible to get with both with the Outlander, Sailor/Pirate, or Soldier background; and the right skill proficiencies from your class. But you don't have to, and I don't know what your stats and background were before. I'd be wary of completely shuffling everything around as if they're a totally new character. Having access to magic doesn't mean your character's Ability Scores and personal history, for example, should change. Not unless you want to get into some shenanigans of a multiversal degree.
You might be putting the cart before the horse in picking a subclass which doesn't gel with your character's theme. We know their class is changing, but what isn't changing?
On the hunter's mark vs. smite issue, why is it an issue at all? You can do both! Once you have extra attack you're pretty much guaranteed to get good value out of hunter's mark even if it only lasts for the one fight, but ideally you'll be using it across multiple, and smite is a fantastic option to have but it's not something you always have to use. In terms of value hunter's mark can outpace a single smite fairly easily as long as you're able to maintain concentration, if you can squeeze two or three encounters out of it it's fantastic value in terms of damage over time, but when you need to bring something down quickly, it's hard to compete with smite, and both can be used together to great effect.
Haste is great but it's important not to be distracted by the benefit vs. the potential cost; you lose an entire turn when it ends, and it doesn't matter how it ends, so losing concentration or an enemy using dispel magic both count. Ideally you'll boost your concentration saves, and have an ally who can counterspell, as losing a paladin for a turn isn't great for most parties.
As for what is the best option; I'd say it depends on the situation. Hunter's mark is a perfectly good basic option to use whenever you're not sure as the chances of getting bad value out of it are pretty low, especially if you can pick up War Caster and/or Resilient (Constitution) so that it's even harder to lose concentration. Having a load of concentration spells isn't necessarily a major problem, so long as you're okay with only having one active at a time, it just means that you have options.
Paladins don't necessarily want to be casting a lot of spells, as much of the time smite will serve you just fine, and since smite doesn't require concentration it won't interrupt anything you have up. Some people prefer to hold smites back until they roll critical hits, and I'd say that's a decent thing to consider as vengeance since vow of enmity gives you advantage (double the chance of a critical hit) but sometimes it's better just to use it anyway if it helps finish something off faster.
Finally, my best advice for a vengeance paladin specifically; unless you plan to switch oaths in future, choose a target for your vengeance that's unattainable, as the pursuit of vengeance is usually way more fun than achieving it. 😉
Hunters mark, imo, is pretty iffy at all. If you use the spell slot to smite, it triggers after you hit and will do 2d8 damage guaranteed. Hunters mark, you use the slot, you may hit, and you may miss. Even if you hit on every attack, it takes hitting 3 times to make the damage better than the smite damage. In theory, you can keep it going for an hour, but in practice, you’ll have it for only 1 fight.
So your choice is smite for a guaranteed 2d8, or hunters mark for maybe a bit more, if you don’t lose concentration and you make your to hit rolls. It’s just kind of risky. And it’s concentration, where something like shield of faith is guaranteed to work, and would also apply to your steed, can be a way better use of concentration. But really, in the end, other than find steed, you’ll probably just use all you spell slots for smiting.
this is definitely good to think about! I was speaking with a party member recently about maybe using bless for my go-to concentration. Since I can take the -5 with great weapon master, the d4 from bless can help balance that out when I decide to take a heavy swing. We also have a small party, so I can hit everyone with it at once.
im definitely excited to try Find Steed. I think the idea of having the war horse in combat as a mount and otherwise is really cool! We will see how my DM wants to treat it in combat when I am not mounted on it, and I think that will help determine how much I bring it to fights with me. But overall I’m stoked to try some mounted combat!
Don't listen to Xalthu. Paladin are spellcasters, so don't be afraid to use those slots for casting spells. You'll have access to lots of good ones. Yes, Divine Smite is an option, but it's often not the best option. And, if you'll permit, I want to get something out of the way. You have a spell save DC of 14, and a +3 bonus to all of your saving throws. For a secondary statistic, this is fine for 6th-level. With that out of the way, let's get down to brass tacks.
Great Weapon Master and hunter's mark are great on their own, but they're competing for your bonus action. If you drop an enemy with an attack, you have to choose between making another attack without the extra 1d6 or moving the spell to another target. You're probably better off with the Dueling or Protection styles; if you're sticking to the PHB. And if you look at Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, all three of those fighting styles (Blessed Warrior, Blind Fighting, and Interception) are solid choices.
This is where your previous build and concept for the character brushes up against the realities of your character's new class. War Caster might be a better feat, but it would have to take the place of your 4th-level ASI. Which means you'd need a new 1st-level feat. Setting aside the possibility of acquiring a cantrip like sacred flame with Blessed Warrior, War Caster would also let you cast hold person (one of your 2nd-level spells) against any humanoid that provokes an Opportunity Attack from you. Plus, you really don't want to lose concentration. You have a lot of good spells with not a lot of spell slots. And if both hands are occupied with a weapon and shield, then you can still cast all your spells no problem.
If you don't mind being forced to choose, then you're good as you are. But it is a concern I think you should be made aware of.
Something else to note is hunter's mark isn't just for dealing damage. It also grants you advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check to find the target, so don't neglect your Wisdom. And, ideally, you want to have proficiency in at least one of those two skills. It's possible to get with both with the Outlander, Sailor/Pirate, or Soldier background; and the right skill proficiencies from your class. But you don't have to, and I don't know what your stats and background were before. I'd be wary of completely shuffling everything around as if they're a totally new character. Having access to magic doesn't mean your character's Ability Scores and personal history, for example, should change. Not unless you want to get into some shenanigans of a multiversal degree.
You might be putting the cart before the horse in picking a subclass which doesn't gel with your character's theme. We know their class is changing, but what isn't changing?
Yeah, I hear you on war caster! It’s a great feat, and it would indeed be sad to lose concentration since I have so few spell slots.
To give you an idea of the character: she is based heavily off of the animated Castlevania version of Trevor Belmont! She is a human, and the last living descendant of an ancient clan of monster slayers. Unfortunately, they died before she could be taught how to use magic, and her family’s name now carries a bad reputation. So, she became a vagabond. Her background borrowed the proficiencies from Soldier and the feature from Gladiator.
The setting is extremely soulsborne inspired and is intentionally built to be a very challenging campaign. Each party member can be resurrected by the gods a small number of times to counteract this. So in our 6 levels, she has died twice (once to a curse, once to a scripted death), and also been the sole survivor of an almost TPK. She has some survivors guilt for sure. All the enemies in this setting sort of serve the same big bad, so she is seeking to make them experience a painful death like the ones she has had to experience (which I feel is very vengeful).
Our party needs a face, so my initial ideas were to go paladin or hexblade warlock. However, I feel her survivors guilt would make her want to have access to healing, so I feel paladin makes more sense for her. I know of course that clerics are the best for healing and removing curses, but I really would like to keep her martial first with a side of spellcasting since she is coming from Fighter.
I do think that the Blessed Warrior is a strong option. I was considering it over Great Weapon fighting, but I can’t tell you how many times it helped me during levels 1-6 already. Especially having Blessed Warrior with War Caster would make it very powerful. And while I cannot (and do not want to) change my race or background, I can swap my feat from my race, so I could drop Great Weapon Fighter and take War Caster at level 1.
Ultimately, the only things we are not allowed to change are the characters rolled stats (like we arent re-rolling them, but we can reassign them), the race (though we can choose new options from race), and background. Also our equipment stays the same. So we are not gaining new items with the new class (though my DM did tell me he would give me a holy symbol of my choice so that I’m not locked out of my spells until I find one).
Since you are running Great Weapon Master I would suggest the Bless spell over Hunter's Mark. Helping mitigate the -5 to hit from Great Weapon Master is imo a better use for your concentration than trying to add more damage with Hunter's Mark. With Great Weapon Master you will be doing plenty of damage if you manage to land your hits.
On the hunter's mark vs. smite issue, why is it an issue at all? You can do both! Once you have extra attack you're pretty much guaranteed to get good value out of hunter's mark even if it only lasts for the one fight, but ideally you'll be using it across multiple, and smite is a fantastic option to have but it's not something you always have to use.
Haste is great but it's important not to be distracted by the benefit vs. the potential cost; you lose an entire turn when it ends, and it doesn't matter how it ends, so losing concentration or an enemy using dispel magic both count. Ideally you'll boost your concentration saves, and have an ally who can counterspell, as losing a paladin for a turn isn't great for most parties.
As for what is the best option; I'd say it depends on the situation. Hunter's mark is a perfectly good basic option to use whenever you're not sure as the chances of getting bad value out of it are pretty low, especially if you can pick up War Caster and/or Resilient (Constitution) so that it's even harder to lose concentration. Having a load of concentration spells isn't necessarily a major problem, so long as you're okay with only having one active at a time, it just means that you have options.
Paladins don't necessarily want to be casting a lot of spells, as much of the time smite will serve you just fine, and since smite doesn't require concentration it won't interrupt anything you have up. Some people prefer to hold smites back until they roll critical hits, and I'd say that's a decent thing to consider as vengeance since vow of enmity gives you advantage (double the chance of a critical hit) but sometimes it's better just to use it anyway if it helps finish something off faster.
Finally, my best advice for a vengeance paladin specifically; unless you plan to switch oaths in future, choose a target for your vengeance that's unattainable, as the pursuit of vengeance is usually way more fun than achieving it. 😉
This is great!!! Thank you!
Our DM runs a homebrewed aggro system inside the campaign, sort of allowing the players to determine which party member is the focus of the enemies’ attention. It really adds some fun dynamics to fights as the party gets to have some control over who is tanking. We have a dedicated barbarian who is staying barbarian (just switching subclass), and they are our dedicated tank. Which is great for me because it means that so long as they are tanking, I can wallop on the enemies with almost no risk of an enemy deciding to attack me instead. It protects my concentration very nicely! However, if the tank was facing something with slam or an aoe, then of course I may still be in the threat range.
I am more or less the “off tank” and I usually dance into the tank role if the tank is low health or in a bad situation. I keep my sword and shield on me for these situations so I can be the tank for a bit when im needed!
It’s my understanding that Hunters Mark damage doubles on a crit, so especially if I am holding onto that smite for a crit, I’d be doing some big spike damage so to speak. I do think some others have mentioned Bless, which imo seems like a good idea as well! But if I really need to hit some big numbers, i think Hunter’s Mark may make a difference.
Since you are running Great Weapon Master I would suggest the Bless spell over Hunter's Mark. Helping mitigate the -5 to hit from Great Weapon Master is imo a better use for your concentration than trying to add more damage with Hunter's Mark. With Great Weapon Master you will be doing plenty of damage if you manage to land your hits.
yes! A party member and I were discussing this recently, and I have to agree! A successful attack with a +10 but no Hunters Mark is better than missing an attack that would have had Hunters Mark! I also have a small party, so I can hit everyone at once with Bless. And it also will boost our saving throws which means everyone is getting a +3 and +1d4 to saving throws within 10ft of me!
It’s my understanding that Hunters Mark damage doubles on a crit, so especially if I am holding onto that smite for a crit, I’d be doing some big spike damage so to speak. I do think some others have mentioned Bless, which imo seems like a good idea as well! But if I really need to hit some big numbers, i think Hunter’s Mark may make a difference.
Both hunter's mark and smite double on a crit, which is why people often recommend holding smites back until you crit to get the most you can out of them; I'd say it's more situational, as waiting for a crit can just mean you never use smite at all, though with your vow of enmity active you have a pretty good chance of getting one during a longer (four or five round) fight. Personally I try to decide in the moment whether my priority is saving resources, or bringing the enemy down fast; even if your priority is damage, you may find that when you crit that gives you a chance to save another smite for later (i.e- instead of two regular smites, you trigger one critical smite and one regular attack). I mean, technically attacks should be rolled one at a time (so you don't know that your second of two attacks with crit), but I've never played with a group that does that, we roll all attacks at once for speed and allow minor meta-gaming for things that trigger on a hit (like smites do).
Bless is a really good spell, and people are right that in a single important fight it can be a lot more powerful than hunter's mark will be, as you're boosting not only your own saves and chance of hitting, but that of several party members. On the other hand, it's got a much shorter duration, and it takes your action to activate it which makes it quite awkward to trigger; you'll basically lose your first turn if you cast it when combat starts, so unless your DM grants a "pre combat turn" or you trigger a surprise round, then you may find you won't want to cast it. I had this problem on a Cleric/Monk of mine, I only really used it when we had a free turn before the fight to activate it. Hunter's mark being a bonus action makes it very easy to activate when ambushed, and its duration means you can easily activate it in advance if you have other bonus action(s) you might want to use (like vow of enmity).
Again though, it's not a bad thing to have as an option, as sometimes you will have those situations where bless is a much better choice, but for the rest of the time hunter's mark is perfectly dependable, even at higher levels, as while the added impact isn't any great, it's still added damage for up to an hour for only a 1st-level slot.
The action issue also occurs for haste, but fortunately it takes effect immediately, so you can at least use its extra action to make one attack with on the turn you cast it, plus an extra +2 AC is rarely a bad thing, just have to watch out for that lost turn when it ends.
Yeah, I hear you on war caster! It’s a great feat, and it would indeed be sad to lose concentration since I have so few spell slots.
To give you an idea of the character: she is based heavily off of the animated Castlevania version of Trevor Belmont! She is a human, and the last living descendant of an ancient clan of monster slayers. Unfortunately, they died before she could be taught how to use magic, and her family’s name now carries a bad reputation. So, she became a vagabond. Her background borrowed the proficiencies from Soldier and the feature from Gladiator.
...
Our party needs a face, so my initial ideas were to go paladin or hexblade warlock. However, I feel her survivors guilt would make her want to have access to healing, so I feel paladin makes more sense for her. I know of course that clerics are the best for healing and removing curses, but I really would like to keep her martial first with a side of spellcasting since she is coming from Fighter.
I do think that the Blessed Warrior is a strong option. I was considering it over Great Weapon fighting, but I can’t tell you how many times it helped me during levels 1-6 already. Especially having Blessed Warrior with War Caster would make it very powerful. And while I cannot (and do not want to) change my race or background, I can swap my feat from my race, so I could drop Great Weapon Fighter and take War Caster at level 1.
Ultimately, the only things we are not allowed to change are the characters rolled stats (like we arent re-rolling them, but we can reassign them), the race (though we can choose new options from race), and background. Also our equipment stays the same. So we are not gaining new items with the new class (though my DM did tell me he would give me a holy symbol of my choice so that I’m not locked out of my spells until I find one).
Great Weapon Fighter was helpful when it wasn't competing with anything. Although, that assumption relies on none of your old battle master maneuvers requiring a bonus action. Being reliant on hunter's mark for consistent damage isn't in of itself a bad thing. But it does come with some drawbacks. You can't get multiple bonus actions per turn. There will be times when you must choose between moving the spell or making another attack.
And you cannot choose War Caster as your 1st-level feat; not as a pure paladin. Paladins cannot cast spells at 1st-level. They have to wait until 2nd-level, which means you can't meet the prerequisite for the feat until 4th-level. Now, you could have them start with Magic Initiate (Bard, Sorcerer, or Warlock). That would let your character know two cantrips, and I recommend a 1st-level spell with no material component. That's 12 cantrips and 18 1st-level spells in the PHB alone.
I also want to delve into the -5/+10 of Great Weapon Master. It looks pretty, and it's fun when it works, but it's only a mean increase of +1 damage per swing. That -5 is rough at every level, and while bless is great, you really want reliable advantage. Or targets with almost criminally low AC so you can just mow them down. And that advantage probably going to come from other people. Sure, you can cast hold person, but that's a round when you're not attacking.
Lastly, like clerics and their Divine Domain, your Sacred Oath will give you a solid suite of spells to help fill a thematic role. I like bless, but bane just hits differently. Making you and your allies better is one thing. Making your foes weaker, having them feel helpless, is something else entirely. Your prepared spells should be filling in perceived gaps, not running counter what you're supposed to be doing.
You’re absolutely right about War Caster! Don’t know why I wasn’t thinking of the prerequisites there since I wouldn’t have any spellcasting at level 1. If I were to take magic initiate, i oddly think bard might be nice because I could steal healing word and vicious mockery? Eldritch blast from warlock is of course invaluable as a form of damage, but I’m not sure there’s much else that I’m crazy about on the Warlock spell list for this character.
I am not trying to challenge you on this, but I am curious how the +10 to damage averages out at a +1. How do we get to that number?
Our DM uses the flanking mechanic, so it is not very difficult to achieve advantage without magical means. My party members are generally very helpful too about positioning themselves to help grant each other advantage. In a situation where we are fighting a single, large enemy, I can also use Vow of Enmity to grant myself advantage if no one else is helping flank it with me.
I don’t think the +10 to damage is crazy when looking at it applied to a single attack. But if advantage isn’t too difficult to obtain or I have bless on myself as well, I could be making 2 attacks using the -5, which would boost damage by a +20. On a turn where I crit and don’t have to spend the bonus action doing something else, it could potentially stack another +10 if I chose to sink another -5 for a total of +30 damage on a single turn.
Overall, paladin doesn’t have a dedicated bonus action. Being granted hunters mark does make it an easy choice since it’s one of the few bonus action spells I get. Polearm Master is popular for paladins and is a nice way to get a consistent bonus action attack. I did consider taking it when I chose to rebuild into paladin, but unfortunately my character isn’t carrying any pole arms. So I wouldn’t have any way to use it until I found one, and we don’t have reliable weapon shops in this setting. As a fighter, I only periodically used my bonus action. I would of course use it to attack again if I met the requirements for GWM’s bonus action. But since we were previously not allowed magic, healing was very difficult to come by, so I spent most of my bonus actions to rally and grant the tank temp HP when they ran out of temp HP.
Unfortunately, GWM triggering when I kill an enemy does make it conflict with Hunters Mark since it needs to be moved when the enemy is killed. But since Hunters Mark does not take up the bonus action on turns where it is not cast or moved to a new target, there are a large number of turns where I don’t have anything to use as a bonus action on my turn if I don’t crit. This makes Polearm master slightly more desirable, but I unfortunately don’t have any means of using it until I find a new weapon.
I do really thematically love bane! I think it makes more sense to use an aggressive, debuff spell rather than a friendly buff spell for this character. Unfortunately, neither of the other party members are heavy spellcasters, so the debuff to saving throws doesn’t help anyone very much. The debuff to attacks is definitely nice as a means of preventing damage. But considering the d4 of debuff is about an average of -2, and the enemies get a saving throw, I think it would make more sense to just slap the +2 ac on the tank from Shield of Faith as a means of preventing damage. I love the idea of throwing down bane! But I don’t think Bless is truly out of character at all either, and i think it surpasses the utility of Bane with my specific party composition.
I gotta weigh in on hunter's mark here. It's not a good spell as far as DPR is concerned in tier 1. 1d6 per attack, or 3.5 damage. But, what isn't being accounted for are the averages you hit or miss. If we do that, then that 3.5 actually falls to 2.1 DPR, assuming you hit 60% of the time. Smite, on the other hand, is a guaranteed 2d8, or 9 on average every time you use it because it can only be used when an attack is confirmed. Therefore, for hunter's mark to beat out smite, you actually have to have it active for at least 4-5 rounds. Most fights end in 3 rounds, so usually you end up spending a slot for less damage if you use hunter's mark over smite. HOWEVER, if the fight includes a situation where the target is likely to run away, then hunter's mark is the correct choice because it makes tracking the target much easier (but this only makes sense if your character has proficiency in survival/perception with a decent WIS score). That said, 95% of the time, smite is the correct choice over hunter's mark. This changes once you get extra attack, then hunter's mark competes well enough that you beat it out in maybe 2-3 turns.
As for warcaster, I don't think it's all that good of an idea on a GWM build, especially a straight paladin. You could have picked up CHA or more STR, the former granting better saves and concentration checks for yourself while the latter grants better melee DPR. Advantage on concentration checks are good if you're going to rely a lot on haste, but otherwise you're not gonna fret too much if you lose concentration on one of your spells to begin with since we're not talking about anything major here. Secondly, GWM builds don't need to worry about somatic components. Thirdly, you don't have that many offensive spells to use in place of an oppie. Hold person? It'd be a real shame if most of your targets were non-humanoid...
Anyways, as far as the +10/-5 of GWM goes, don't worry too much. You can bless yourself. You have a source of reliable advantage in the form of your Vow of Enmity. That solves most of your issues!
You’re absolutely right about War Caster! Don’t know why I wasn’t thinking of the prerequisites there since I wouldn’t have any spellcasting at level 1. If I were to take magic initiate, i oddly think bard might be nice because I could steal healing word and vicious mockery? Eldritch blast from warlock is of course invaluable as a form of damage, but I’m not sure there’s much else that I’m crazy about on the Warlock spell list for this character.
Well, there are other options. Both classes come with a plethora of utility spells, and if you're looking at other books then something like booming blade could be fun during an Opportunity Attack.
I am not trying to challenge you on this, but I am curious how the +10 to damage averages out at a +1. How do we get to that number?
Our DM uses the flanking mechanic, so it is not very difficult to achieve advantage without magical means. My party members are generally very helpful too about positioning themselves to help grant each other advantage. In a situation where we are fighting a single, large enemy, I can also use Vow of Enmity to grant myself advantage if no one else is helping flank it with me.
I'm glad you asked. Let's make a couple of assumptions, so our mathematical model works out.
A 6th-level paladin has a +3 proficiency bonus
You have a Strength score of 18, for a +4 ability modifier
Attacking with a maul means your damage should average out to 11 (2d6 + 4)
Your enemy is CR 6, which the DMG recommends having 15 AC
Your chosen Fighting Style (Great Weapon Fighting) increases your weapon damage by 1-2/X, where X is the size of the die. So, for a glaive it would be 1-2/10 or 0.8. But your weapon is two smaller die, so we do it twice for 2(1-2/6) for 1.3 repeating. We'll use the grade school 1.33 to simplify, meaning each swing of the weapon would average out to 12.33 on a hit.
But first, you have to hit.
A +7 modifier means you only have a 65% chance of landing a blow. So, your effective damage per swing is only going to be 8.0145, or 8 to simplify. Taking the -5 penalty to your attack roll for +10 bonus damage will raise the damage on a hit to 22.33. But now you only have a 40% chance of succeeding, which brings your mean damage per swing to 8.932. We can round up and just say it's 9, but you get the idea.
Now, advantage changes the calculations. To figure out your odds of success, you square your odds of failure, subtract 1, and multiply by -1. Now, your odds of landing a blow grow to 87.75% and 64%, respectively. We'll round those off to 10.82 and 14.29, respectively, and you can see how regular advantage makes a difference. Advantage and a feat yield a roughly 75% increase in damage per swing. At least in this example.
Personally, I dislike using the optional flanking rule as written because it makes getting advantage too easy. Do that and people are disinclined to use the help action or cast spells like faerie fire. I want my players to do cool things, but I'll give them a little something. They get a flat +2 if they flank an enemy with one ally (or mutual enemy) and a flat +5 if they can flank with two allies (or mutual enemies). I find this still encourages teamwork without taking anything away from those core options.
I gotta weigh in on hunter's mark here. It's not a good spell as far as DPR is concerned in tier 1. 1d6 per attack, or 3.5 damage. But, what isn't being accounted for are the averages you hit or miss. If we do that, then that 3.5 actually falls to 2.1 DPR, assuming you hit 60% of the time. Smite, on the other hand, is a guaranteed 2d8, or 9 on average every time you use it because it can only be used when an attack is confirmed. Therefore, for hunter's mark to beat out smite, you actually have to have it active for at least 4-5 rounds. Most fights end in 3 rounds, so usually you end up spending a slot for less damage if you use hunter's mark over smite. HOWEVER, if the fight includes a situation where the target is likely to run away, then hunter's mark is the correct choice because it makes tracking the target much easier (but this only makes sense if your character has proficiency in survival/perception with a decent WIS score). That said, 95% of the time, smite is the correct choice over hunter's mark. This changes once you get extra attack, then hunter's mark competes well enough that you beat it out in maybe 2-3 turns.
As for warcaster, I don't think it's all that good of an idea on a GWM build, especially a straight paladin. You could have picked up CHA or more STR, the former granting better saves and concentration checks for yourself while the latter grants better melee DPR. Advantage on concentration checks are good if you're going to rely a lot on haste, but otherwise you're not gonna fret too much if you lose concentration on one of your spells to begin with since we're not talking about anything major here. Secondly, GWM builds don't need to worry about somatic components. Thirdly, you don't have that many offensive spells to use in place of an oppie. Hold person? It'd be a real shame if most of your targets were non-humanoid...
Anyways, as far as the +10/-5 of GWM goes, don't worry too much. You can bless yourself. You have a source of reliable advantage in the form of your Vow of Enmity. That solves most of your issues!
Thank you so much for this! After reading all of everyone’s responses here, that is my thoughts as well about using bless! I’ve got a +4 to strength, so I’m hoping to pour most of my abilities into my melee DPR with smite. I’m lucky that, in this campaign, my DM uses his own aggro system. Essentially, the enemies will attack only whoever has the top aggro spot (with some small exceptions), and players have to manage their aggro points to provoke/avoid provoking the attention of the enemies. There is a barbarian in the party who is our tank, and as long as they are top of our aggro list, I don’t have any risk of taking attacks. Which is great because my concentration won’t be threatened very much unless I’m standing in the way of a slam or something aoe-like by mistake.
Also yes rip Hold Person since like 70% or more of our enemies are beasts, monstrosities, etc and sadly almost never humanoid. But I guess that will make it feel even cooler when one day I encounter a humanoid enemy and finally have that chance to do the thing!
You’re absolutely right about War Caster! Don’t know why I wasn’t thinking of the prerequisites there since I wouldn’t have any spellcasting at level 1. If I were to take magic initiate, i oddly think bard might be nice because I could steal healing word and vicious mockery? Eldritch blast from warlock is of course invaluable as a form of damage, but I’m not sure there’s much else that I’m crazy about on the Warlock spell list for this character.
Well, there are other options. Both classes come with a plethora of utility spells, and if you're looking at other books then something like booming blade could be fun during an Opportunity Attack.
I am not trying to challenge you on this, but I am curious how the +10 to damage averages out at a +1. How do we get to that number?
Our DM uses the flanking mechanic, so it is not very difficult to achieve advantage without magical means. My party members are generally very helpful too about positioning themselves to help grant each other advantage. In a situation where we are fighting a single, large enemy, I can also use Vow of Enmity to grant myself advantage if no one else is helping flank it with me.
I'm glad you asked. Let's make a couple of assumptions, so our mathematical model works out.
A 6th-level paladin has a +3 proficiency bonus
You have a Strength score of 18, for a +4 ability modifier
Attacking with a maul means your damage should average out to 11 (2d6 + 4)
Your enemy is CR 6, which the DMG recommends having 15 AC
Your chosen Fighting Style (Great Weapon Fighting) increases your weapon damage by 1-2/X, where X is the size of the die. So, for a glaive it would be 1-2/10 or 0.8. But your weapon is two smaller die, so we do it twice for 2(1-2/6) for 1.3 repeating. We'll use the grade school 1.33 to simplify, meaning each swing of the weapon would average out to 12.33 on a hit.
But first, you have to hit.
A +7 modifier means you only have a 65% chance of landing a blow. So, your effective damage per swing is only going to be 8.0145, or 8 to simplify. Taking the -5 penalty to your attack roll for +10 bonus damage will raise the damage on a hit to 22.33. But now you only have a 40% chance of succeeding, which brings your mean damage per swing to 8.932. We can round up and just say it's 9, but you get the idea.
Now, advantage changes the calculations. To figure out your odds of success, you square your odds of failure, subtract 1, and multiply by -1. Now, your odds of landing a blow grow to 87.75% and 64%, respectively. We'll round those off to 10.82 and 14.29, respectively, and you can see how regular advantage makes a difference. Advantage and a feat yield a roughly 75% increase in damage per swing. At least in this example.
Personally, I dislike using the optional flanking rule as written because it makes getting advantage too easy. Do that and people are disinclined to use the help action or cast spells like faerie fire. I want my players to do cool things, but I'll give them a little something. They get a flat +2 if they flank an enemy with one ally (or mutual enemy) and a flat +5 if they can flank with two allies (or mutual enemies). I find this still encourages teamwork without taking anything away from those core options.
this is great! Thank you for taking the time to break it down for me!
yeah, I have to agree that flanking can feel very overpowered very quickly! The campaign has purposefully included many deadly encounters and some boss fights well above our challenge level, so I think it is the DMs way of giving us a boost in a challenging campaign. There are also some enemies that are just too big to be flanked without 3+ players around it, or we are fighting in magical darkness etc, so I realistically shouldn’t ALWAYS account for being able to flank when needed. I do like your bonuses for flanking as well, though! That’s a great way to reward the players for strategizing while still keeping advantage more difficult to obtain.
You're welcome for the breakdown, it was fun to do, and I now feel silly because I forgot to include the critical hit chance in the damage calculation.
A base hit should average to 8.43; with GWM bringing that up to 9.34. And if advantage is a factor, the effective damage per swing increases to 11.23 and 14.71, respectively. Not a big change, but in the interest of accuracy I felt the need to amend my previous work.
Like I said before, the feat isn't that impressive on its own. It really shines when working as a group, and that's the key to playing the game.
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Hey there! I am a moderately experienced D&D player, but it’s my first time playing a paladin! I am very excited but hoping to seek some advice from those who have played an Oath of Vengeance paladin before. TLDR at bottom if you’d prefer
The campaign I am in is/was a no-magic campaign, so my character was originally a variant human battlemaster fighter running a maul and great weapon master. However, a magical event happened at level 6 that magically changes the characters and allows the players to “re-spec” their characters to classes that allow for magic. So, I am coming into paladin at level 6.
I would like to keep my build and character thematically close to what she was. So, I am keeping the great weapon master feat, picking great weapon fighting style from paladin, and paladin also grants me a second attack at level 5 like I gained from fighter. Party wise, I am generally the biggest damage per turn, and I am planning to maintain that offensive play style while a paladin.
The area I seek advice on is mostly in regards to spells. So so many of the spells are concentration based, which is fine. But with access to Hunters Mark through Vengeance—which also takes concentration—I am always asking myself if one of my other concentration spells could be more important somehow.
I would assume that since Hunters Mark applies any time I do damage, and since I can attack twice per turn (three times using a bonus action if I crit or knock something to 0hp because of great weapon master)—that Hunter’s Mark additional damage makes it the best use of my concentration. And perhaps I can use the other spells like Shield of Faith, Heroism, etc on a situational/need basis? But is this right? When does Hunter’s Mark’s utility drop off (when I get Haste at 9 maybe?)?
My CHA is only a +3, so my saving throw for an enemy to avoid something like Bane isn’t super high. So, I’m thinking I should stick to things that affect friendlies and/or can’t be resisted. But is Hunter’s Mark truly the best soak of my concentration right now at level 6?
TLDR: Is Hunters Mark the best use of my concentration for a paladin doing 2 (potentially 3) attacks per round, and at what level do you think my concentration is better spent on something else?
Hunters mark, imo, is pretty iffy at all.
If you use the spell slot to smite, it triggers after you hit and will do 2d8 damage guaranteed.
Hunters mark, you use the slot, you may hit, and you may miss. Even if you hit on every attack, it takes hitting 3 times to make the damage better than the smite damage. In theory, you can keep it going for an hour, but in practice, you’ll have it for only 1 fight.
So your choice is smite for a guaranteed 2d8, or hunters mark for maybe a bit more, if you don’t lose concentration and you make your to hit rolls. It’s just kind of risky. And it’s concentration, where something like shield of faith is guaranteed to work, and would also apply to your steed, can be a way better use of concentration.
But really, in the end, other than find steed, you’ll probably just use all you spell slots for smiting.
Don't listen to Xalthu. Paladin are spellcasters, so don't be afraid to use those slots for casting spells. You'll have access to lots of good ones. Yes, Divine Smite is an option, but it's often not the best option. And, if you'll permit, I want to get something out of the way. You have a spell save DC of 14, and a +3 bonus to all of your saving throws. For a secondary statistic, this is fine for 6th-level. With that out of the way, let's get down to brass tacks.
Great Weapon Master and hunter's mark are great on their own, but they're competing for your bonus action. If you drop an enemy with an attack, you have to choose between making another attack without the extra 1d6 or moving the spell to another target. You're probably better off with the Dueling or Protection styles; if you're sticking to the PHB. And if you look at Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, all three of those fighting styles (Blessed Warrior, Blind Fighting, and Interception) are solid choices.
This is where your previous build and concept for the character brushes up against the realities of your character's new class. War Caster might be a better feat, but it would have to take the place of your 4th-level ASI. Which means you'd need a new 1st-level feat. Setting aside the possibility of acquiring a cantrip like sacred flame with Blessed Warrior, War Caster would also let you cast hold person (one of your 2nd-level spells) against any humanoid that provokes an Opportunity Attack from you. Plus, you really don't want to lose concentration. You have a lot of good spells with not a lot of spell slots. And if both hands are occupied with a weapon and shield, then you can still cast all your spells no problem.
If you don't mind being forced to choose, then you're good as you are. But it is a concern I think you should be made aware of.
Something else to note is hunter's mark isn't just for dealing damage. It also grants you advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check to find the target, so don't neglect your Wisdom. And, ideally, you want to have proficiency in at least one of those two skills. It's possible to get with both with the Outlander, Sailor/Pirate, or Soldier background; and the right skill proficiencies from your class. But you don't have to, and I don't know what your stats and background were before. I'd be wary of completely shuffling everything around as if they're a totally new character. Having access to magic doesn't mean your character's Ability Scores and personal history, for example, should change. Not unless you want to get into some shenanigans of a multiversal degree.
You might be putting the cart before the horse in picking a subclass which doesn't gel with your character's theme. We know their class is changing, but what isn't changing?
Hunter's Mark is OK for a while but I usually prefer Shield of Faith and later on Haste.
On the hunter's mark vs. smite issue, why is it an issue at all? You can do both! Once you have extra attack you're pretty much guaranteed to get good value out of hunter's mark even if it only lasts for the one fight, but ideally you'll be using it across multiple, and smite is a fantastic option to have but it's not something you always have to use. In terms of value hunter's mark can outpace a single smite fairly easily as long as you're able to maintain concentration, if you can squeeze two or three encounters out of it it's fantastic value in terms of damage over time, but when you need to bring something down quickly, it's hard to compete with smite, and both can be used together to great effect.
Haste is great but it's important not to be distracted by the benefit vs. the potential cost; you lose an entire turn when it ends, and it doesn't matter how it ends, so losing concentration or an enemy using dispel magic both count. Ideally you'll boost your concentration saves, and have an ally who can counterspell, as losing a paladin for a turn isn't great for most parties.
As for what is the best option; I'd say it depends on the situation. Hunter's mark is a perfectly good basic option to use whenever you're not sure as the chances of getting bad value out of it are pretty low, especially if you can pick up War Caster and/or Resilient (Constitution) so that it's even harder to lose concentration. Having a load of concentration spells isn't necessarily a major problem, so long as you're okay with only having one active at a time, it just means that you have options.
Paladins don't necessarily want to be casting a lot of spells, as much of the time smite will serve you just fine, and since smite doesn't require concentration it won't interrupt anything you have up. Some people prefer to hold smites back until they roll critical hits, and I'd say that's a decent thing to consider as vengeance since vow of enmity gives you advantage (double the chance of a critical hit) but sometimes it's better just to use it anyway if it helps finish something off faster.
Finally, my best advice for a vengeance paladin specifically; unless you plan to switch oaths in future, choose a target for your vengeance that's unattainable, as the pursuit of vengeance is usually way more fun than achieving it. 😉
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this is definitely good to think about! I was speaking with a party member recently about maybe using bless for my go-to concentration. Since I can take the -5 with great weapon master, the d4 from bless can help balance that out when I decide to take a heavy swing. We also have a small party, so I can hit everyone with it at once.
im definitely excited to try Find Steed. I think the idea of having the war horse in combat as a mount and otherwise is really cool! We will see how my DM wants to treat it in combat when I am not mounted on it, and I think that will help determine how much I bring it to fights with me. But overall I’m stoked to try some mounted combat!
Yeah, I hear you on war caster! It’s a great feat, and it would indeed be sad to lose concentration since I have so few spell slots.
To give you an idea of the character: she is based heavily off of the animated Castlevania version of Trevor Belmont! She is a human, and the last living descendant of an ancient clan of monster slayers. Unfortunately, they died before she could be taught how to use magic, and her family’s name now carries a bad reputation. So, she became a vagabond. Her background borrowed the proficiencies from Soldier and the feature from Gladiator.
The setting is extremely soulsborne inspired and is intentionally built to be a very challenging campaign. Each party member can be resurrected by the gods a small number of times to counteract this. So in our 6 levels, she has died twice (once to a curse, once to a scripted death), and also been the sole survivor of an almost TPK. She has some survivors guilt for sure. All the enemies in this setting sort of serve the same big bad, so she is seeking to make them experience a painful death like the ones she has had to experience (which I feel is very vengeful).
Our party needs a face, so my initial ideas were to go paladin or hexblade warlock. However, I feel her survivors guilt would make her want to have access to healing, so I feel paladin makes more sense for her. I know of course that clerics are the best for healing and removing curses, but I really would like to keep her martial first with a side of spellcasting since she is coming from Fighter.
I do think that the Blessed Warrior is a strong option. I was considering it over Great Weapon fighting, but I can’t tell you how many times it helped me during levels 1-6 already. Especially having Blessed Warrior with War Caster would make it very powerful. And while I cannot (and do not want to) change my race or background, I can swap my feat from my race, so I could drop Great Weapon Fighter and take War Caster at level 1.
Ultimately, the only things we are not allowed to change are the characters rolled stats (like we arent re-rolling them, but we can reassign them), the race (though we can choose new options from race), and background. Also our equipment stays the same. So we are not gaining new items with the new class (though my DM did tell me he would give me a holy symbol of my choice so that I’m not locked out of my spells until I find one).
Really excited for haste down the line! Seems so powerful.
Since you are running Great Weapon Master I would suggest the Bless spell over Hunter's Mark. Helping mitigate the -5 to hit from Great Weapon Master is imo a better use for your concentration than trying to add more damage with Hunter's Mark. With Great Weapon Master you will be doing plenty of damage if you manage to land your hits.
This is great!!! Thank you!
Our DM runs a homebrewed aggro system inside the campaign, sort of allowing the players to determine which party member is the focus of the enemies’ attention. It really adds some fun dynamics to fights as the party gets to have some control over who is tanking. We have a dedicated barbarian who is staying barbarian (just switching subclass), and they are our dedicated tank. Which is great for me because it means that so long as they are tanking, I can wallop on the enemies with almost no risk of an enemy deciding to attack me instead. It protects my concentration very nicely! However, if the tank was facing something with slam or an aoe, then of course I may still be in the threat range.
I am more or less the “off tank” and I usually dance into the tank role if the tank is low health or in a bad situation. I keep my sword and shield on me for these situations so I can be the tank for a bit when im needed!
It’s my understanding that Hunters Mark damage doubles on a crit, so especially if I am holding onto that smite for a crit, I’d be doing some big spike damage so to speak. I do think some others have mentioned Bless, which imo seems like a good idea as well! But if I really need to hit some big numbers, i think Hunter’s Mark may make a difference.
yes! A party member and I were discussing this recently, and I have to agree! A successful attack with a +10 but no Hunters Mark is better than missing an attack that would have had Hunters Mark! I also have a small party, so I can hit everyone at once with Bless. And it also will boost our saving throws which means everyone is getting a +3 and +1d4 to saving throws within 10ft of me!
Both hunter's mark and smite double on a crit, which is why people often recommend holding smites back until you crit to get the most you can out of them; I'd say it's more situational, as waiting for a crit can just mean you never use smite at all, though with your vow of enmity active you have a pretty good chance of getting one during a longer (four or five round) fight. Personally I try to decide in the moment whether my priority is saving resources, or bringing the enemy down fast; even if your priority is damage, you may find that when you crit that gives you a chance to save another smite for later (i.e- instead of two regular smites, you trigger one critical smite and one regular attack). I mean, technically attacks should be rolled one at a time (so you don't know that your second of two attacks with crit), but I've never played with a group that does that, we roll all attacks at once for speed and allow minor meta-gaming for things that trigger on a hit (like smites do).
Bless is a really good spell, and people are right that in a single important fight it can be a lot more powerful than hunter's mark will be, as you're boosting not only your own saves and chance of hitting, but that of several party members. On the other hand, it's got a much shorter duration, and it takes your action to activate it which makes it quite awkward to trigger; you'll basically lose your first turn if you cast it when combat starts, so unless your DM grants a "pre combat turn" or you trigger a surprise round, then you may find you won't want to cast it. I had this problem on a Cleric/Monk of mine, I only really used it when we had a free turn before the fight to activate it. Hunter's mark being a bonus action makes it very easy to activate when ambushed, and its duration means you can easily activate it in advance if you have other bonus action(s) you might want to use (like vow of enmity).
Again though, it's not a bad thing to have as an option, as sometimes you will have those situations where bless is a much better choice, but for the rest of the time hunter's mark is perfectly dependable, even at higher levels, as while the added impact isn't any great, it's still added damage for up to an hour for only a 1st-level slot.
The action issue also occurs for haste, but fortunately it takes effect immediately, so you can at least use its extra action to make one attack with on the turn you cast it, plus an extra +2 AC is rarely a bad thing, just have to watch out for that lost turn when it ends.
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Great Weapon Fighter was helpful when it wasn't competing with anything. Although, that assumption relies on none of your old battle master maneuvers requiring a bonus action. Being reliant on hunter's mark for consistent damage isn't in of itself a bad thing. But it does come with some drawbacks. You can't get multiple bonus actions per turn. There will be times when you must choose between moving the spell or making another attack.
And you cannot choose War Caster as your 1st-level feat; not as a pure paladin. Paladins cannot cast spells at 1st-level. They have to wait until 2nd-level, which means you can't meet the prerequisite for the feat until 4th-level. Now, you could have them start with Magic Initiate (Bard, Sorcerer, or Warlock). That would let your character know two cantrips, and I recommend a 1st-level spell with no material component. That's 12 cantrips and 18 1st-level spells in the PHB alone.
I also want to delve into the -5/+10 of Great Weapon Master. It looks pretty, and it's fun when it works, but it's only a mean increase of +1 damage per swing. That -5 is rough at every level, and while bless is great, you really want reliable advantage. Or targets with almost criminally low AC so you can just mow them down. And that advantage probably going to come from other people. Sure, you can cast hold person, but that's a round when you're not attacking.
Lastly, like clerics and their Divine Domain, your Sacred Oath will give you a solid suite of spells to help fill a thematic role. I like bless, but bane just hits differently. Making you and your allies better is one thing. Making your foes weaker, having them feel helpless, is something else entirely. Your prepared spells should be filling in perceived gaps, not running counter what you're supposed to be doing.
You’re absolutely right about War Caster! Don’t know why I wasn’t thinking of the prerequisites there since I wouldn’t have any spellcasting at level 1. If I were to take magic initiate, i oddly think bard might be nice because I could steal healing word and vicious mockery? Eldritch blast from warlock is of course invaluable as a form of damage, but I’m not sure there’s much else that I’m crazy about on the Warlock spell list for this character.
I am not trying to challenge you on this, but I am curious how the +10 to damage averages out at a +1. How do we get to that number?
Our DM uses the flanking mechanic, so it is not very difficult to achieve advantage without magical means. My party members are generally very helpful too about positioning themselves to help grant each other advantage. In a situation where we are fighting a single, large enemy, I can also use Vow of Enmity to grant myself advantage if no one else is helping flank it with me.
I don’t think the +10 to damage is crazy when looking at it applied to a single attack. But if advantage isn’t too difficult to obtain or I have bless on myself as well, I could be making 2 attacks using the -5, which would boost damage by a +20. On a turn where I crit and don’t have to spend the bonus action doing something else, it could potentially stack another +10 if I chose to sink another -5 for a total of +30 damage on a single turn.
Overall, paladin doesn’t have a dedicated bonus action. Being granted hunters mark does make it an easy choice since it’s one of the few bonus action spells I get. Polearm Master is popular for paladins and is a nice way to get a consistent bonus action attack. I did consider taking it when I chose to rebuild into paladin, but unfortunately my character isn’t carrying any pole arms. So I wouldn’t have any way to use it until I found one, and we don’t have reliable weapon shops in this setting.
As a fighter, I only periodically used my bonus action. I would of course use it to attack again if I met the requirements for GWM’s bonus action. But since we were previously not allowed magic, healing was very difficult to come by, so I spent most of my bonus actions to rally and grant the tank temp HP when they ran out of temp HP.
Unfortunately, GWM triggering when I kill an enemy does make it conflict with Hunters Mark since it needs to be moved when the enemy is killed. But since Hunters Mark does not take up the bonus action on turns where it is not cast or moved to a new target, there are a large number of turns where I don’t have anything to use as a bonus action on my turn if I don’t crit. This makes Polearm master slightly more desirable, but I unfortunately don’t have any means of using it until I find a new weapon.
I do really thematically love bane! I think it makes more sense to use an aggressive, debuff spell rather than a friendly buff spell for this character. Unfortunately, neither of the other party members are heavy spellcasters, so the debuff to saving throws doesn’t help anyone very much. The debuff to attacks is definitely nice as a means of preventing damage. But considering the d4 of debuff is about an average of -2, and the enemies get a saving throw, I think it would make more sense to just slap the +2 ac on the tank from Shield of Faith as a means of preventing damage. I love the idea of throwing down bane! But I don’t think Bless is truly out of character at all either, and i think it surpasses the utility of Bane with my specific party composition.
I gotta weigh in on hunter's mark here. It's not a good spell as far as DPR is concerned in tier 1. 1d6 per attack, or 3.5 damage. But, what isn't being accounted for are the averages you hit or miss. If we do that, then that 3.5 actually falls to 2.1 DPR, assuming you hit 60% of the time. Smite, on the other hand, is a guaranteed 2d8, or 9 on average every time you use it because it can only be used when an attack is confirmed. Therefore, for hunter's mark to beat out smite, you actually have to have it active for at least 4-5 rounds. Most fights end in 3 rounds, so usually you end up spending a slot for less damage if you use hunter's mark over smite. HOWEVER, if the fight includes a situation where the target is likely to run away, then hunter's mark is the correct choice because it makes tracking the target much easier (but this only makes sense if your character has proficiency in survival/perception with a decent WIS score). That said, 95% of the time, smite is the correct choice over hunter's mark. This changes once you get extra attack, then hunter's mark competes well enough that you beat it out in maybe 2-3 turns.
As for warcaster, I don't think it's all that good of an idea on a GWM build, especially a straight paladin. You could have picked up CHA or more STR, the former granting better saves and concentration checks for yourself while the latter grants better melee DPR. Advantage on concentration checks are good if you're going to rely a lot on haste, but otherwise you're not gonna fret too much if you lose concentration on one of your spells to begin with since we're not talking about anything major here. Secondly, GWM builds don't need to worry about somatic components. Thirdly, you don't have that many offensive spells to use in place of an oppie. Hold person? It'd be a real shame if most of your targets were non-humanoid...
Anyways, as far as the +10/-5 of GWM goes, don't worry too much. You can bless yourself. You have a source of reliable advantage in the form of your Vow of Enmity. That solves most of your issues!
Well, there are other options. Both classes come with a plethora of utility spells, and if you're looking at other books then something like booming blade could be fun during an Opportunity Attack.
I'm glad you asked. Let's make a couple of assumptions, so our mathematical model works out.
Your chosen Fighting Style (Great Weapon Fighting) increases your weapon damage by 1-2/X, where X is the size of the die. So, for a glaive it would be 1-2/10 or 0.8. But your weapon is two smaller die, so we do it twice for 2(1-2/6) for 1.3 repeating. We'll use the grade school 1.33 to simplify, meaning each swing of the weapon would average out to 12.33 on a hit.
But first, you have to hit.
A +7 modifier means you only have a 65% chance of landing a blow. So, your effective damage per swing is only going to be 8.0145, or 8 to simplify. Taking the -5 penalty to your attack roll for +10 bonus damage will raise the damage on a hit to 22.33. But now you only have a 40% chance of succeeding, which brings your mean damage per swing to 8.932. We can round up and just say it's 9, but you get the idea.
Now, advantage changes the calculations. To figure out your odds of success, you square your odds of failure, subtract 1, and multiply by -1. Now, your odds of landing a blow grow to 87.75% and 64%, respectively. We'll round those off to 10.82 and 14.29, respectively, and you can see how regular advantage makes a difference. Advantage and a feat yield a roughly 75% increase in damage per swing. At least in this example.
Personally, I dislike using the optional flanking rule as written because it makes getting advantage too easy. Do that and people are disinclined to use the help action or cast spells like faerie fire. I want my players to do cool things, but I'll give them a little something. They get a flat +2 if they flank an enemy with one ally (or mutual enemy) and a flat +5 if they can flank with two allies (or mutual enemies). I find this still encourages teamwork without taking anything away from those core options.
Thank you so much for this! After reading all of everyone’s responses here, that is my thoughts as well about using bless! I’ve got a +4 to strength, so I’m hoping to pour most of my abilities into my melee DPR with smite. I’m lucky that, in this campaign, my DM uses his own aggro system. Essentially, the enemies will attack only whoever has the top aggro spot (with some small exceptions), and players have to manage their aggro points to provoke/avoid provoking the attention of the enemies. There is a barbarian in the party who is our tank, and as long as they are top of our aggro list, I don’t have any risk of taking attacks. Which is great because my concentration won’t be threatened very much unless I’m standing in the way of a slam or something aoe-like by mistake.
Also yes rip Hold Person since like 70% or more of our enemies are beasts, monstrosities, etc and sadly almost never humanoid. But I guess that will make it feel even cooler when one day I encounter a humanoid enemy and finally have that chance to do the thing!
this is great! Thank you for taking the time to break it down for me!
yeah, I have to agree that flanking can feel very overpowered very quickly! The campaign has purposefully included many deadly encounters and some boss fights well above our challenge level, so I think it is the DMs way of giving us a boost in a challenging campaign. There are also some enemies that are just too big to be flanked without 3+ players around it, or we are fighting in magical darkness etc, so I realistically shouldn’t ALWAYS account for being able to flank when needed. I do like your bonuses for flanking as well, though! That’s a great way to reward the players for strategizing while still keeping advantage more difficult to obtain.
You're welcome for the breakdown, it was fun to do, and I now feel silly because I forgot to include the critical hit chance in the damage calculation.
A base hit should average to 8.43; with GWM bringing that up to 9.34. And if advantage is a factor, the effective damage per swing increases to 11.23 and 14.71, respectively. Not a big change, but in the interest of accuracy I felt the need to amend my previous work.
Like I said before, the feat isn't that impressive on its own. It really shines when working as a group, and that's the key to playing the game.